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Agreed that boyz at 7ppm is kinda stupid but at least in 8th they arent "bad" either.
The bulk of the reason they arent performing too well falls on lack of single PK being a powerhouse, which isnt gonna come back either. The way 8th is structured the PK would have to be unfairly strong/cheap to allow a SINGLE nob with it to be a severe threat again.
I'm almost wishing they'd bump them to 5+ armor and stay at 7ppm. Especially since so many mass ap1-2 shots are cropping up. I find myself dajumping around my morkanaut or better jet wazbom rather than as close as i can to something i wanna charge because then i get a 5++ (and odds are im not getitng that charge anyway).

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Rokkits i feel need to be careful with making cheaper. At 12p each they feel a bit pricy, but they hit so dang hard that sometimes they just shred things. 8p both sounds about right and too low to me.
Burnas/skorchas should drop drastically though i feel. Burnas are a fething joke with D3 shots (oh but you get the Ap in melee! on 3x cost boyz with no extra defenses or numbers so 2 attacks each at S4....big whoop. A squad of Nobz with ChoppaChoppa does more damage than that...). Both of them have the same major issue though of that range is so bad and the units that can use them are so squishy you simply CANT use them more than once, and theyre nowhere near strong enough to justify a "one and done" attack.
I often forget my gork even HAS a skorcha because i rarely am even close enough to use the dang thing.

I think that's more anecdotal; exploding Rokkits can sometimes produce crazy results (3 rokkits hitting 5 times or something is nuts), but on average they aren't that good. It's just they are actually impactful if they hit, as they do 3 damage. You still need to have 3 rokkit boyz to hit on average, for a whooping 36 point upgrade to the unit (and if you include the boy, 57 points).

It really depends on the platform. A shoota boy w/ Rokkit is 19 points total; really not that great except maybe on a Deathskull MSU boy squad. On a Tankbusta, rokkits shine, as you get them cheaper, they really benefit from shoot twice, *and* they get bonuses against vehicles.
Then you look at them on things like Deffkoptas, and wonder why anyone would spend 52 points for 2 rokkit shots (at a grand total of 26 points per rokkit). Woof.

Making it cheaper for a Shoota boy is good, making it cheaper for a Tankbusta is probably bad.

Burnas are full on useless, yes. Too few attacks even if you magically get them into range, on a boy body. Woof.

Boyz are in a weird spot for me. Coming back from 3rd/4th edition, Boy squads with Nobz were very good; Choppas reduced armour to 4+ save at best, and Power Klaws could trash vehicles, monsters, and heavy infantry alike. It was hard to shift a big squad of Boyz, where in this environment, it's incredibly easy for most armies to have many, simple answers to them.

Reducing their cost would be nice, but they still probably wouldn't kill much regardless. They are there to catch bullets and try to contest objectives.

What I miss most, is the days when painboyz had a 5+fnp. Add a powerclaw that doesn't have the negative modifier and we're back to where boys can do something and have stayingpower.

I also hope the buggies get a point reduction, I love my scrapjets but for 40 points more you get a Lord Disco... wtf? Actually, points reduction for most vehicles would be good.

The FNP drop across the board made no sense to me.

Why nerf the crap out of the second layer of protection in the same edition you introduced multi-damage weapons, which makes it weaker by default?

Its why i swear the way they intended it was if you FNP a failed save, you block all the damage it would have caused. But they worded it like crap and never bothered to fix it so we got what we got now, a rule that is largely for most factions pretty pointless.

Couple of top 4 finishes for Ork this week, including a list with trukks and a couple units of bustas.

Boy spam seems to still be the thing, though.

I always thought that, fluff wise, Boyz and infantry should have a 6+++ as standard.
A painboy would then boost that to 5+++
For me, that'd help get Boyz back on the table.
As for burnaz, at a bare minimum they'd need d6 shots, maybe a strategem to boost the range?

Boyz: With the intro of SPEESE MEHREENS ON CRACK, we need them back to 6ppm OR give them a 5+ save and leave them at 7ppm. Wait until the IG get that codex bump and people are going to go nuts at the idea of guardsmen only being 4ppm. OHH, and give ALL orkz 6in movement again. The fact that a guardsmen is faster is embarrassing.

Grotz: Nerf them and basically just tell Orkz that you don't give a feth about them. If boyz don't get fixed and grotz get a nerf its just a blatant attempt at weakening orkz barring some major codex changes.

Rokkitz: I've done the math a few times but the gist of it is that a Space Marine with a Missile Launcher is better across the board and has access to a lot more force multipliers for his weapon. Rokkitz need to drop down to 8pts at the most, honestly at 5ppm in 7th I was having to decide whether or not to take them or not.

Big Shoota: Double its shot output and drop it to 4pts

Burnaz: The only way to fix burna's is to give them a 4+ Save, 3 attacks base and increase their Firepower to D6 instead of D3. At that point, a suicide squad of them in a trukk wouldn't be that bad a strat, if they blow the trukk you can upgrade their armor to give you a 3+.

 r_squared wrote:
I always thought that, fluff wise, Boyz and infantry should have a 6+++ as standard.
A painboy would then boost that to 5+++

It certainly would up their survivability, but not as much as you might think.

5++ and a 6+++ save right now means there is a 55.5% chance of failing both rolls ( 2/3 * 5/6 ). Just under a 4+ save.

(2/3 * 2/3) makes that 44.4% chance to fail both.

It's helpful but I think its not going to fix boyz issues.

I think the bigger problem to be honest is that the KFF needs to have units *wholly* within the 9". This actually makes it rather troublesome to keep coverage once you start moving. Painboy aura is at least incredibly easy to apply to your line as long as you trail back. If KFF was half the unit had to be within 9" like it used to be, it would probably be a lot better.

There was a rumor in 7th that we were getting a 6+ army wide FNP instead of the armor. This of course didnt happen but it made sense.
Ork tshirt save is mostly explained by how tough their hides are, not the gubbinz they wear. That sounds more like a FNP thing, not an armor.
Yes right now its the Snakebiters thing, but A) vehicles wouldnt get this, as its orky toughness explaining it and machines aint resilient in that way, and B) Snikebiters probably are the best candidate for needing a full kulture overhaul anyway. I legitmately laughed when i saw Deathskullz and then saw Snakebites...wth made GW think those were even remotely on the same level?? lol
(Unless of course like i mentioned earlier the 6+++ was supposed to block all damage from a failed save, and bad wording and failure to correct it on GW's part lead us to what it actually is atm)

tulun wrote:
Couple of top 4 finishes for Ork this week, including a list with trukks and a couple units of bustas.

Boy spam seems to still be the thing, though.

Spoiler:

4th Place

Anthony Richardson - Fields of Damnation


Battalion Detachment 5CP (Orks) [33 PL, 666pts]
Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz


+ HQ +
Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 99pts] Attack Squig, Power Klaw, Shoota (Index)

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]


+ Troops +
Boyz [11 PL, 215pts] x30, 3x Tankbusta Bombs, Boss Nob, Big Choppa, Shoota (Index), 29x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Boyz [11 PL, 215pts] x30, 3x Tankbusta Bombs, Boss Nob, Big Choppa, Choppa, 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] x10


+ Elites +
Kommandos [2 PL, 45pts]x5 Tankbusta Bombs, Boss Nob, big Choppa, 2x Burna


Battalion Detachment 5CP (Orks) [45 PL, 959pts]
Clan Kultur: Bad Moons


+ HQ +
Big Mek (Index) [5 PL, 79pts] Choppa, Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field
Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 99pts] Attack Squig, Power Klaw, Shoota (Index)


+ Troops +
Boyz [11 PL, 213pts] x30, 3x Tankbusta Bombs, Boss Nob, Power Stabba, Shoota (Index), 29x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] x10

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] x10



+ Elites +
Tankbustas [8 PL, 190pts] x10, 2x Bomb Squig, Boss Nob, Rokkit Launcha ,9x Rokkit Launcha
Tankbustas [8 PL, 190pts] x10, 2x Bomb Squig, boss Nob, Rokkit Launcha, 9x Rokkit Launcha


+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk [3 PL, 64pts] Big Shoota
Trukk [3 PL, 64pts] Big Shoota


Spearhead Detachment 1CP (Orks) [20 PL, 374pts]
Clan Kultur: Deathskulls
Vigilis Defiant: Dread Waaaagh!


+ HQ +
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts] Choppa, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord


+ Heavy Support +
Mek Gunz [6 PL, 93pts] x3, 3x smasha guns

Mek Gunz [6 PL, 135pts]x3, 3x Traktor Kannons

Mek Gunz [4 PL, 62pts] x2, 2x Smasha Guns

Link here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/dut8xh/pandas_weekend_rundown_11091110/

Da Boyz, 3rd place with foot warboss, runtherd, stormboyz and a metric ton of smashas.
Altanta: 5th place (but undefeated), list not available.
Fields of Damnation: 3rd place with the list above. Most notable are the kommandoz and trukks with tank bustas.

Evil Suns/Bad Moons/Death Skulls seems to be settling in as the most competitive combination for clans, few run anything else.

 flandarz wrote:
Can't put Mek Gunz into a Tellyporta because they have the GRETCHIN keyword. Same for Kanz. Sadly.

I'm sure people CAN wipe 8 Gunz a turn, but that much firepower is gonna mean they'll be ignoring other threats on the board, and I consider that a good trade. Anything that diverts attention from a mob of Boyz I can Da Jump up is a solid investment, especially at that low of a point cost.

Ummm...Since when shooting boyz with multi damage weapons has been good idea? Okay so there was the game when dark eldar declared "16 dark lances vs that boyz unit" but that's because there was no other option to shoot anyway. Boyz or...well boyz.

Thing is most of those guns shooting at mek guns are the kind of guns that aren't that efficient at removing boyz. People have plenty of those as you need to one shot knights.

You are still assuming that shooting dark lances at mek guns is somehow efficient.

^ That. Multi-Damage weapons aren't efficient at shooting Mek Gunz either. These are guns that, as you said, are designed to take out Knights. You know, the T7-8 models with Invulns and a dozen or two Wounds. And you're using them to take out T5, W6, Sv4+ models.

 Jidmah wrote:
You are still assuming that shooting dark lances at mek guns is somehow efficient.

More efficient than boyz. I'm assuming opponent isn't custom tailoring list vs orks but does TAC list. And TAC lists tend to have these things called "anti tank weapons". Which are wasted on boyz but funnily enough works vs mek guns which are for all intents and purposes vehicles. Guess where thus the multi damage weapons shoot? Boyz? Or vehicles?

I have yet to see anybody fire AT weapons vs boyz if there's vehicles out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
^ That. Multi-Damage weapons aren't efficient at shooting Mek Gunz either. These are guns that, as you said, are designed to take out Knights. You know, the T7-8 models with Invulns and a dozen or two Wounds. And you're using them to take out T5, W6, Sv4+ models.

W6 is more than W1. If he shoots that AT weapon with multiple damage vs boyz that's one dead boy with wasted damage. Against mek gun that damage stat isnt' wasted.

Oh yeah right. Opponent will simply not shoot AT weapons(which all lists have) at all Right. It makes perfect sense!

The thing is they might not be optimal but the mek guns are lot better target than boyz, all lists have AT weapons and so even not being optimal will still result in death of easily 8 mek guns when alternative was shooting W1 7 pts boyz. Weeeeee! THAT is smart idea! Sure! Absolutely!

Well, it depends. Most AA guns are S8, so they'd be Wounding Boyz on 2s and the Gunz on 3s. With 3+BS, and an average of 3.5 damage per Wound, it would take 4 shots (on average) to take out a Mek Gun. Multiplied by 8, and that's 24 shots to remove 248 pts of Gunz, which would deal an average of 9 (or so) damage a turn to T7 targets with a 5++ Save.

Alternatively, they could target the Boyz. The same 24 shots would get rid of 13 Boyz, on average. That's enough to force those Boyz to make a Morale Test, if there's not another Blob nearby. It's also 91 pts, which is a lot less points removed, but you've also dropped them out of +1 Attack size.

Against the same T7 (with a 4+ Save), the Boyz can deal around 12 damage a turn, between shooting and charging. And, without a special ability, they prevent that target from shooting in your opponent's shooting phase. So more damage and a "debuff".

While AA is more efficient against Gunz than Boyz, Boyz are more dangerous than Gunz against almost any target. So, even in the case where you have no other armor to target with your guns, it probably gonna be better for you to just target the Boyz.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You are still assuming that shooting dark lances at mek guns is somehow efficient.

More efficient than boyz. I'm assuming opponent isn't custom tailoring list vs orks but does TAC list. And TAC lists tend to have these things called "anti tank weapons". Which are wasted on boyz but funnily enough works vs mek guns which are for all intents and purposes vehicles. Guess where thus the multi damage weapons shoot? Boyz? Or vehicles?

I have yet to see anybody fire AT weapons vs boyz if there's vehicles out there.

Two ravagers with dark lances (280 points) kill one 31 point smasha gun on average, or 28 points worth of boyz, 36 points of storm boyz, 68 points of tankbustas or lootas. Not bothering to do they math for MANz, nobz or flash gits, but I think you get the point. Firing dark lances at elite ork units is more efficient than shooting smashas.
An anti-tank weapon is not an anti-tank weapon because of it's high strength, AP or damage, but because it is efficient at killing high toughness multi-wound models. But since dark lances are not efficient at shooting mek guns at all, shooting them over any ork infantry besides boyz is a bad decision, and even shooting boyz isn't terrible if it gains you an advantage like wiping the unit so it can't tide, VP or higher casualties from morale.
The main reason why opponents still shoot smashas is because otherwise they get smashed to bits by their shooting output.

Outside of that, boyz serve exactly one purpose and that is charging from deep strike, where they either manage to wrap something and can't be shot, or they don't and they end up in range of every bolter, shuriken catapult and lansgun, meaning they are dead before the enemy even starts thinking about what to shoot with his big guns. Numarines can clear out three units of boyz per turn without breaking a sweat.

The thing is they might not be optimal but the mek guns are lot better target than boyz, all lists have AT weapons and so even not being optimal will still result in death of easily 8 mek guns when alternative was shooting W1 7 pts boyz. Weeeeee! THAT is smart idea! Sure! Absolutely!

To kill 8 mek guns(248 points) with d6 weapons that have at least S6 and AP-2, you need 35 BS 3+ shots on average (700 points worth of lances or 875 points of lascannons/AML), which would have killed 20 boyz and another 10 from morale, for 210 or 2 CP. It's not as much better as you'd think. And of course, it gets better there is anything but boyz and gretchin to shoot, for example if you clear out the grot screen of a loota mob and then aim those lances their way.

 Jidmah wrote:


Link here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/dut8xh/pandas_weekend_rundown_11091110/

Da Boyz, 3rd place with foot warboss, runtherd, stormboyz and a metric ton of smashas.
Altanta: 5th place (but undefeated), list not available.
Fields of Damnation: 3rd place with the list above. Most notable are the kommandoz and trukks with tank bustas.

Evil Suns/Bad Moons/Death Skulls seems to be settling in as the most competitive combination for clans, few run anything else.

It's the optimal setup from what I can tell.

All 3 have probably the optimal bonuses to certain units (like, SAGs are clearly best on Deathskullz, Lootas/Tankbustas as Bad Moonz for Showing off, etc). And you also probably need at least 3 batallions at 2000 anyway, so why not give yourself the options?
The codex doesn’t really give you enough incentive to go mono culture outside of Freebootas

What's interesting is that BOY spam is still winning. I really wonder if these guys avoided Space Marine battles, because I just can't see Boy spam doing well against SM. They hit too hard with too many shots, it's a meatgrinder.

Who is spamming boyz?

From what I observed, boyz max out at 3, some people get away with just two units or even none if they bring enough gretchin.

 Jidmah wrote:
Who is spamming boyz?

From what I observed, boyz max out at 3, some people get away with just two units or even none if they bring enough gretchin.

I guess its better to call it greentide, but I would say when making a list, it really feels hard to not go with a TON of boyz, or basically zero, as they require so much support in the form of KFF and Painboy and Warboss that makes them even more expensive. Compared to like Mega Nobz, which probably can be fielded with zero support realistically and be fine.

Combination of KFF Mek, Painboy, and 3 full boy squads is pushing close to 900 points. And they wonder why we use grots a lot...

In the top 4 lists you see, it seems to always be about this:

3-4 30 man Boy squads.
Grots to fill out other 2 bats
3 SAG
Some combination of Warboss, KFF, and/or Painboy to support the boyz.
Lootas and/or Tankbustas.
12-18 Smasha Gunz.

I am wondering if the Boy portion of this list will fall out of favour because Space Marines have zero trouble killing large boy blobs even when paired with a KFF/Painboy. And when you have 2-4 wounds and a 2+ or 3+, you don't even care if they charge you.

Are there any other kind of list archetypes that have done well?

Ive been intentionally hiding my boyz to try and use them T3+
Probably because the main marine force i come across is White Scars and that extra damage bullgak makes them autowin against anything that ISNT a boy. Nothing more frustraiting than having a gork get killed from full to dead by a bunch of S5 AP1 attacks purely because of that stupid 2D bonus (hurt it, yes, flatout kill it, no that should never happen. Were talking about a marine unit that pays for extra attacks and nothing else suddenly given +1 AP and +1 Damage...yeah totally fair).

Makes me wish standard reserves were still a thing. Pay no CP, T2+ they just walk on the board. One of the white scars players i face got wise to this and started literally ignoring my nauts to try and remove my boyz hiding behind them/around corners lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ive been intentionally hiding my boyz to try and use them T3+
Probably because the main marine force i come across is White Scars and that extra damage bullgak makes them autowin against anything that ISNT a boy. Nothing more frustraiting than having a gork get killed from full to dead by a bunch of S5 AP1 attacks purely because of that stupid 2D bonus (hurt it, yes, flatout kill it, no that should never happen. Were talking about a marine unit that pays for extra attacks and nothing else suddenly given +1 AP and +1 Damage...yeah totally fair).

Makes me wish standard reserves were still a thing. Pay no CP, T2+ they just walk on the board. One of the white scars players i face got wise to this and started literally ignoring my nauts to try and remove my boyz hiding behind them/around corners lol

Don't we still have that ability? They would just walk off the back edge then.

Nope, that is not a rule.

Theres no rules for it that im aware of. Minor exception being some missions DO cover it, but not as a general "any game mode" rule.
Only missions that come off the top of my head that allow it are vigilius campaign stuff, and they are horrifically imbalanced lol. My casual group recently did a campaign for it and we found VERY quick that all except 1 maybe 2 are so unfair its not even fun. (Canisters dropping one is the only one i'd say was fun, and it actually forces 2/3 of your list to not be on the board at the start)

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Who is spamming boyz?

From what I observed, boyz max out at 3, some people get away with just two units or even none if they bring enough gretchin.

I guess its better to call it greentide, but I would say when making a list, it really feels hard to not go with a TON of boyz, or basically zero, as they require so much support in the form of KFF and Painboy and Warboss that makes them even more expensive. Compared to like Mega Nobz, which probably can be fielded with zero support realistically and be fine.

Combination of KFF Mek, Painboy, and 3 full boy squads is pushing close to 900 points. And they wonder why we use grots a lot...

In the top 4 lists you see, it seems to always be about this:

3-4 30 man Boy squads.
Grots to fill out other 2 bats
3 SAG
Some combination of Warboss, KFF, and/or Painboy to support the boyz.
Lootas and/or Tankbustas.
12-18 Smasha Gunz.

I am wondering if the Boy portion of this list will fall out of favour because Space Marines have zero trouble killing large boy blobs even when paired with a KFF/Painboy. And when you have 2-4 wounds and a 2+ or 3+, you don't even care if they charge you.

Are there any other kind of list archetypes that have done well?

That... doesn't exactly match what I have seen, checking Panda's weekly round-up for almost a year now.

Boyz are exclusively delivered via deep strike (da jump, tellyport and green tide) and therefore used in Evil Suns detachments, because you really want that +1 to charge. For that reason, taking more than three doesn't make sense, since you would not put them into your other detachment and thus lose another 215 points that could be spend on other units. Some drop the third unit to make room for more dakka, but no one runs 4 mobs. Even the guy from last week had 2 mobz of boyz and 1 mob of storm boyz, if you count those as boyz.
Boyz get no support, but only serve to threaten and lock up units or exploit weaknesses. They are utility first and foremost, damage second.

The green tide archetype requires at least six units of boyz, usually supported by storm boyz. However, that build is dead since any opponent can ask the TO for a chess clock - it's impossible to win a game when you can't do anything for the last two turns.

SAGs is often enough just the SSAG but sometimes with 1-2 regular SAGs to go along. 3 SAGs is by no means mandatory. KFF is regularly seen, but is not used to protect boyz, but mek guns. I can't remember when I last saw a pain boy that wasn't Grotznik. Instead, you always have 1-3 weird boyz for da jump, fists of gork and smite.
So the HQ formula is more like: SSAG+Killa Klaw warboss+Da jump Weirdboy and then pick three from the following: SAG, KFF, Badrukk, weird boy.

As for shooting units, Lootas, Tank Bustas and Flash Gits are equivalent options, tank bustas can be used in addition to one of the other two if you tellyport-suicide them.

12-18 smashas seems about right, though quite a few players get away with just 12.

The archetypes that vary wildly from this can be considered flukes where a rogue build hit the right opponents, had hot dice, cases exceptional generalship or because they caught their meta off-guard. None of them could reproduce their results.

I've not used mek guns all that much (I usually need the HS slots for flashgits and battlewagons) and haven't done badly at all, but that said I've not played any tournaments (though my last 2 games were against a friends tournament list, which I royally thrashed).

I really want to make stormboys work, they are my next project! (I'm going to magnetise some boys to fit backpacks, so I can make use of the masses of boys I already have!).

My above posts refers to trying to win (grand) tournaments only. As soon as you go down the competitive ladder by a bit, plenty of options open up, unless you have that guy with brand new grey IH executioners in your group.

 Jidmah wrote:
My above posts refers to trying to win (grand) tournaments only. As soon as you go down the competitive ladder by a bit, plenty of options open up, unless you have that guy with brand new grey IH executioners in your group.

I’m happy with your definition.

I question if it’ll survive much longer, though. Boyz seem checked by space marines between Auspex scans, aggressive assault centurions, and just the general Bolter fire they can bare. I honestly wonder if a straight up swap to grots would be better if their sole purpose is to just tie up objectives.

It's really up to PA and CA right now. We have plenty of tools to handle the new marines (KBB and Scrapjet, for example), but most of them are just too expensive to form into a good list. Primaris armies were already a PITA to deal with as orks, and they got tons of power piled onto that. New stratagems, psychic power or point drops could change that.

I also hope that the 4 pts grot rumor is just made up, because it would change nothing about how we use gretchin and just steal points from us.

The 4pt grot thing if it came to be would basically seal the deal that GW gives 2 gaks about xenos.
A grot is NOT worth the same as a guardsmen. Not even close. Even as it is, the 1pt difference is a massive boost in effectiveness.

Please refrain from bringing the guardsmen discussion here as well.

The points cost is only comparable when one unit can be substituted for another. For example pox walkers vs nurglings vs cultists.
I frankly don't care what a guardsman costs, as long as orks as an army are balanced against imperial guard as an army. Which, in my experience, seems to be the case.