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Discussing this in a tournament thread regarding one of the most play-to-win guys I've ever come across.

The chap in question was using Guardsmen and the Move!Move!Move order to move up to 24" per turn in the following sequence.

1. Roll for advance and move the squad that much.
2. Use MMM on the unit and move them again with the same Advance roll.

I was particularly annoyed by this as he had been doing this the whole tournament. It was only noticed on the last game and it could have skewed the results a fair bit due to objective points.

Now lets ignore the fact that Orders are done in the Shooting Phase, so as soon as he does it once I could stop him moving anything else. His justification for the rule was that the Tyranids FAQ states the following:

Tyranids FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their Move characteristic?

A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would still be the value as modified from the Advance. For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5" Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its Move characteristic would still be 9".

Now the FAQ quote above relates to units which move twice in the same phase. Now lets look at the Guard Codex:

Imperial Guard Codex, p.85 wrote:Move! Move! Move!: Instead of shooting this phase the ordered unit immediately moves as if it were the Movement Phase

His argument was that as it counts as if the movement phase, the unit then moves using the same Advance result. My argument however, was that even though it counts as the Movement Phase, it isn't actually the Movement Phase. It is your Shooting Phase, therefore you must use a new Advance roll.

I understand that this is weird writing on GW's part, but am hoping for a bit of clarification on the matter. There's another tournament coming up in a couple of weeks and I'm certain he'll be using this tactic again. Are there any other examples where this scenario can be resolved? I'm not looking for a "Gotcha", but of an explanation or example that can clear this up.


*Edited for formatting*

"As if" is not the same as "is". You would need to make a new advance roll.

The Advance rules say

Roll a dice and add the result to the units movement characteristic for that Movement phase. (emphasis mine)

When using the M3 order in the Shooting phase, while you are acting as if it were the movement phase, it does not say that it is the movement phase, just that they can act as if it were. So I would say no, you have to roll again, as once the movement phase is over, their move characteristic goes back to normal again.

As if and it is,

The as if = it is approach leads to odd situations with end of phase events,
If move, move, move did made it back into their previous movement phase, then they can't use if if they place any model from reserves as that is an end of phase action.
Hence you would to reopen a closed phase, because you have used an end of phase event any movement phase after that means it wasn't the end of phase and you broke a rule somewhere, because you create a paradox.

As if just means you follow the movement phase rules for moving.
As otherwise technically you can move directly into CC without overwatch as the rules for not being able to do so are movement phase rules.

If the movement phase rules were persistent game rules charging pileing and consolidate would need to give explicitly permission to end with 1 inch.

Which is just dumb as it's requiring the game be written is a wierd way just to account for the exceptions to the rule.

 Kcalehc wrote:
The Advance rules say

Roll a dice and add the result to the units movement characteristic for that Movement phase. (emphasis mine)

When using the M3 order in the Shooting phase, while you are acting as if it were the movement phase, it does not say that it is the movement phase, just that they can act as if it were. So I would say no, you have to roll again, as once the movement phase is over, their move characteristic goes back to normal again.

This. Generally "as if" will use all the rules for movement phase , but this ability is specific to a single movement phase, so no doubling up.

You roll again as it's the Shooting Phase.

GW wrote "as if its the movement phase", which means that all rules of the movement phase apply. Otherwise they would have written they can move their movement characteristic, or something similiar. They can advance, but they have to roll a dice, because its not the movement phase anymore.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
The Advance rules say

Roll a dice and add the result to the units movement characteristic for that Movement phase. (emphasis mine)

When using the M3 order in the Shooting phase, while you are acting as if it were the movement phase, it does not say that it is the movement phase, just that they can act as if it were. So I would say no, you have to roll again, as once the movement phase is over, their move characteristic goes back to normal again.

This. Generally "as if" will use all the rules for movement phase , but this ability is specific to a single movement phase, so no doubling up.

Agreed. You're acting as if it's the movement phase, but since the movement phase ended before getting to do this, it's not the same movement phase. He wouldn't use the same advance result as the movement phase that had already ended. The key here isn't going off the "as if", it's going off "the same movement phase"

I agree it's the shooting phase with permission to do movement phase things, but I don't see what the big deal is either way as long as he's consistent? If he rolled a 1 to advance it would actually penalize him more because he was locked into the 1. But, if he was switching between copying roll and rolling separately based on the dice result, then it's time to smash models.

EDIT: original post was wrong.

To me the original roll only lasts until the end of the movement phase. Once you have moved onto the shooting phase the original roll no longer applies so you would have to re-roll.

 deviantduck wrote:
I agree it's the shooting phase with permission to do movement phase things, but I don't see what the big deal is either way as long as he's consistent? If he rolled a 1 to advance it would actually penalize him more because he was locked into the 1. But, if he was switching between copying roll and rolling separately based on the dice result, then it's time to smash models.

I agree a new roll is required. With respect to the above, it absolutely makes a difference, since using the previous Movement phase's result gives the player more information than they should have before deciding to use the order. If you would need a 3+ to reach an objective but you use the previous phase's result of 2, you know not to waste your time with the order. Overall it's not a huge advantage, but it is potentially advantageous.

I agree with all of the "as if" uses the rules of the movement phase, but isn't. The idea that your move characteristic is adjusted by advance ENDS when the movement phase ends. So he has to reroll.
Also as pointed out above, it makes a HUGE difference. If he has advanced more than one unit, he knows exactly which unit to use his MMM order on. As a guard player, he can easily have 2-3 advancing units for the turn he wishes to use this to reach an objective (say last turn of game to claim VP's). It eliminates any of the risk of using the MMM order, as he will know ahead of time if one or any of his units can reach his goal.

 deviantduck wrote:
I agree it's the shooting phase with permission to do movement phase things, but I don't see what the big deal is either way as long as he's consistent? If he rolled a 1 to advance it would actually penalize him more because he was locked into the 1. But, if he was switching between copying roll and rolling separately based on the dice result, then it's time to smash models.

Not to mention that this is the army that is literally swimming in CP roll a 2 on that advance burn a CP for a reroll, not like the CP matter or that your going to need a reroll for much else in the movement phase.
It's just straight up playing incorrectly, at an organised event thats a warning escalating to DQ at judges discretion.

Slipspace wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I agree it's the shooting phase with permission to do movement phase things, but I don't see what the big deal is either way as long as he's consistent? If he rolled a 1 to advance it would actually penalize him more because he was locked into the 1. But, if he was switching between copying roll and rolling separately based on the dice result, then it's time to smash models.

I agree a new roll is required. With respect to the above, it absolutely makes a difference, since using the previous Movement phase's result gives the player more information than they should have before deciding to use the order. If you would need a 3+ to reach an objective but you use the previous phase's result of 2, you know not to waste your time with the order. Overall it's not a huge advantage, but it is potentially advantageous.

Fair enough. I couldn't think of anything relevant.

just to clarify, was the player using the implacable determination warlord trait for AM? if that was the case then one unit would get 12 inches in the movement and 12 inches in the shooting phase with the order, which would give a total of 24 inches. is this correct?

Hilarious. I just asked a question in another thread about Implacable Determination + MMM.

It would be rolled again anyway as even if it is "as if movement phase" it's still not SAME movement phase now is it? Otherwise rolling 1 on advance on movement phase of turn 1 would lock advances for 1 for turn 2 movement phase. After all that is still movement phase...

Oh and btw rules that apply in shooting phase like character protection are still in use when shooting in non-shooting phase that shoot "as if shooting phase". Seems GW considers as if=is

I just spent the past two hours reading every ruling concerning "as if it were X phase" to research an interaction between Impacable Determination and MMM. My conclusion is that GW considers it to satisfy "is X phase" requirements.

Here is my evidence from the FAQs, which actually answer the OP:

Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their Move characteristic?
A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would still be the value as modified from the Advance.
For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5" Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its Move characteristic would still be 9".

...

Q: Can the Opportunistic Advance Stratagem be used when a unit is affected by the Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, the Overrun Stratagem, or the Mind Eater Warlord Trait?
A: Yes in all cases. Please note the FAQ above regarding moving multiple times in a single phase.

Opportunistic Advance 1 CP - Use this stratagem in the Movement phase when you roll the dice for an Advancing Kraken unit (other than a unit that can FLY). You can double the number you roll and add that total to their Move characteristic for that Movement phase, rather than following the normal rules for Advancing.

Hive Commander: In each of your Shooting phases, you can pick one friendly <HIVE FLEET> unit within 6" of your Swarmlord. This unit can Move (and Advance, if you wish) as if it were the Movement phase instead of shooting.

Overrun: 1CP - Use this Stratagem when any <TYRANIDS> unit destroys an enemy unit in the Fight phase and is not within 3″ of another enemy unit. Instead of consolidating, that unit can move and Advance as if it were the Movement phase. It cannot move within 1″ of an enemy unit when doing so.

Mind Eater (WLT) Each time the Warlord slays an enemy Character in the Fight phase, choose a friendly <HIVE FLEET> unit within 3". At the end of the phase, that unit can move and Advance as if it were the Movement phase.

I think many people initially formed the impression that "as if it were X phase" did not satisfy "is X phase" requirements because of an overly broad interpretation of this Index FAQ:

Q: If I use a Soulburst action to charge with a Ynnari unit outside of the Charge phase, can my opponent’s Characters perform a Heroic Intervention after I have made a charge move with my unit?
A: No.

I think this actually means to say that the free Heroic Intervention comes at the end of the Charge phase itself, and performing an action as if it were the Charge phase does not reproduce the entire Charge phase in the middle of another phase.

The reason people say "as if" is not the same as "is" is because they aren't the same. It's got nothing to do with FAQs.

The first FAQ you gave about moving multiple times in the same phase has nothing to do with whether "as if" is the same as "is". The Tyranid FAQ is a Special Snowflake FAQ that ignores the rules and does not apply to anything other than Tyranids.

Well, of course they are not the same. You would not need to specify "as if it were" if "it were." But the purpose of the subjunctive is to abstractify the rules and game state of one phase whilst in another.

GW rules time and time again that you can use stratagems, WLTs, abilities, etc. that have an "is" requirement in "as if" situations.

Have you found any rulings that support the idea of "as if" not qualifying for "is"? Because without any, it's hard for me to simply take your word over GW's inferred equivalency.

EDIT: And yes, I get that there are a billion RAW fallacies and gauging intent is a very murky business in general, but it is hard for me to assume that the Tyranid ruling and the Auspex Scan rulings are the exceptions when they apply to so many different game objects across so many different codexes. Occam's Razor actually leads me to believe that these are the norm, and that cases where "as if" not qualifying for "is" are the exception.

If it was intended, the rules would say as such. The rules do not say as such, thus it cannot be intended. Since GW have errata'd things like Single use weapons being forced to fire, or the Deathwatch Intercessor Sergeant issue, we can assume that anything not errata'd is intended.

One FAQ ignoring the rules does not make everything follow that FAQ.

What if the rules do say as such, but you are simply unwilling to adopt an interpretation that takes the subjunctive to connote equivalence?

More rulings that support my point:

Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements is a Character, can the firing unit shoot at it even if it is not the closest enemy unit?
A: No – unless the firing unit is using a weapon that allows them to target a Character even if it is not the closest enemy unit. This takes place ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’, so all the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply.

Q: Which, if any, Movement phase rules apply to a move made with the Fire and Fade Stratagem?
A: All such rules apply

Q: Can a Swooping Hawk unit use Fire and Fade to move over an enemy unit and use the Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack ability? If I use Fire and Fade on a Crimson Hunter, will it crash due to not being able to move its minimum distance? If a unit that can Fly uses Fire and Fade in a Fire and Fury Battlezone, does it have to roll for the Burning Skies special rule?
A: Yes in all cases.

For reference:

Fire and Fade 1 CP - You can use this Stratagem after a friendly ASURYANI unit shoots in your Shooting phase. If you do so, the unit can immediately move 7" as if it were the Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move). However, it cannot charge in the same turn that it does so.

Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack: Swooping Hawks can fire a spread of grenades when they are set up on the battlefield using the Children of Baharroth ability and as they fly over enemy units in the Movement phase...

Burning Skies [Battlefield Rule]: Units that can Fly must roll a dice each time they move in the Movement phase...on a roll of 1, they suffer D3 mortal wounds.

I literally have found nothing to contradict the position, so the intent at least seems clear. Are you really asking me to believe your interpretation over all this? Why can I use Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack during the Shooting phase due to a stratagem that acts as if it were the Movement phase, but not any other ability that interacts with a stratagem in this manner?

Again, "As if" simply means the rules apply. "Is" means that things that require it to actually be that phase work.

Example: If you move "as if" it was the movement phase, you don't get to benefit from FLY because FLY requires it to actually BE the movement phase, not just moving as if it was.

I believe that the phrase "as if it were the movement phase" is to tell you to follow all the rules for movement which are covered in the movement phase section, such as not moving within 1" of enemy models, moving up to your movement value, etc.

The rules in the movement phase only cover movement in the movement phase. If the rules simply stated that the model "can move", then guarantee that people would start claiming that they can move any distance, ignore enemy models, stop within 1" and perform a 40" flying charge with no overwatch over the entire enemy army. Because the rules which restrict you from doing so are found in the "movement phase" rules, and it is the "shooting phase", so these rules don't apply.

Basically, if they didn't say "as if it were the movement phase", they wold have to list the entire movement phase rules in each special rule which allowed you to move outside of the movement phase, to stop people from abusing this.

Further to this argument:

The rules for advancing state "Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that movement phase."

for that movement phase.

"The" movement phase is a generic point in each turn.
"That" movement phase is a specific movement phase.

so the advance roll only applies to "That" movement phase, not "The" movement phase.

"Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order." - BRB, pg176

so by the shooting phase, the movement phase has already ended. if the movement phase is "re-opened", then there would be a psychic phase afterwards, as it "must be resolved in order". so, basically, any army with a unit which can move in the shooting phase should have one of these units, and then all psykers, and get infinite psychic phases every turn.

or, they have to roll for their advance again.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Again, "As if" simply means the rules apply. "Is" means that things that require it to actually be that phase work.

Example: If you move "as if" it was the movement phase, you don't get to benefit from FLY because FLY requires it to actually BE the movement phase, not just moving as if it was.

If this is true, then this (below) FAQ answer cannot be true (as they cannot move over another unit in the shooting phase, as FLY does not apply).

Q: Can a Swooping Hawk unit use Fire and Fade to move over an enemy unit and use the Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack ability?
A: Yes in all cases.

Fire and Fade 1 CP - You can use this Stratagem after a friendly ASURYANI unit shoots in your Shooting phase. If you do so, the unit can immediately move 7" as if it were the Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move). However, it cannot charge in the same turn that it does so.

So there's a bit of a contradiction there.

FAQs commonly ignore rules. It's a bad habit of GW's that I dislike but begrudgingly accept as reality.

There is also a contradiction where GW say Faction keywords have no functional difference once the game starts via FAQ, then also say via FAQ they have a functional difference for Chaos Daemon stratagems.

Counts as the movement phase doesn't mean it's the same movement phase. The normal movement phase has ended, so it is not the same phase.

It's confused by the use of the definite article, but every game contains multiple movement phases so that's a red herring.

The player was wrong, they should have rolled again.

So to get this straight, units moving “as if it where the movement phase” can’t Fly, but are allowed to ignore the Enemy Models, Fall Back and Advance Rules? Those are all Movement Phase rules.

 alextroy wrote:
So to get this straight, units moving “as if it where the movement phase” can’t Fly, but are allowed to ignore the Enemy Models, Fall Back and Advance Rules? Those are all Movement Phase rules.

Models move as if it were the movement phase, meaning they follow all the rules for the movement phase but it is not actually the movement phase.

As such, rules such as fly do apply, as they are just rules, used in the movement phase.
However, values determined in the movement phase which only last for the duration of the phase must be re-established for this phase, as it is no longer the movement phase and the value no longer applies.

if the rule states "until the end of the movement phase" or "for the duration of the movement phase", then it does nothing in the shooting phase, as it is past the movement phase.
If the rule simply tells you what to do during the movement phase, such as units with fly ignoring terrain and models, then it will apply when acting "as if it were the movement phase".

Technically, there are steps missing from the rules which means it doesn't work at all - the unit advances, and adds the dice roll to it's movement "for that movement phase". As it is the shooting phase, this doesn't do anything; they roll a dice, nothing gets added as it is the wrong phase, and they move their normal move but cannot shoot or assault. which could well be the intention, to stop them from running faster than a jetbike.

 alextroy wrote:
So to get this straight, units moving “as if it where the movement phase” can’t Fly, but are allowed to ignore the Enemy Models, Fall Back and Advance Rules? Those are all Movement Phase rules.

To expand on the previous explanation for extra clarity:

If you move as if it were the movement phase you DO fly.

If you move and you don't treat it as the movement phase, such as when charging, then you don't fly.