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Andykp wrote:All the arguments for purging aliens don’t stand up to any scrutiny. Simply swap the word alien for Jew or black people or native Americans or Slav or Cossack etc. It’s basically bigotry and the xenophobia is just that. Justifiable by those committing the atrocities it their twisted world (universe) view. We have had this many times and I have seen onething try to justify genocide and mass murder and I am yet to be convinced.

But there is a pretty big difference between Jews, black people, Native Americans, Slavs and Cossacks vs the portrayal of xenos we see in 40k - that being that the xenos attempted to destroy humanity when they were in an alliance with them, and all of the real world examples did not.

Sorry, but they're not the same thing at all. If anything, should we not be comparing the aliens who attempted to eradicate humanity to the ones who commited the atrocities against those peoples you said above? And, in that case, don't we all believe that suppressing and fighting against the people/aliens who would do that is a good thing?

Humanity didn't swing the first punch. The aliens did, and their action in doing so shattered any trust that humanity had in them.

To put it another way - your once-friend, when you have had a recent breakup/financial problem, etc etc, steals your stuff, beats you to the ground, and if not for you defending yourself, would have hospitalized you. Do you trust them afterwards, or do you take all necessary precautions to make sure they can never do that to you again?

Crimson wrote:'Some foreigners did some bad things so it is OK to kill all foreigners.' That's bloody insane. And evil. Insanely evil, in fact.

But it's not just "some foreigners". It's "all the foreigners who said they were our friends, and nearly every other foreigner is actively hostile to us".

This isn't the minority here. This was all of the xenos allied with humanity here - and the ones who weren't were most likely hostile anyway.

Truth is, we don't have enough knowledge to be 100% sure, but from what I can see, this was hardly a minority incident.

Andykp wrote:But from what perspective is it ok to judge an entire group of people and kill them because the actions of a few of them. I know it’s real world and fantasy comparisons here but like I say. Replace the word alien in the phrase “suffer not the alien to live” with the word Jew. All of a sudden it isn’t that ok is it. And the nazis believed, as the imperials do in 40k that the hated class has done much to them and presents a real danger.

But the Jews didn't attempt to destroy Germany after the Treaty of Versailles. They did nothing other than exist.
Compare and contrast to the Imperium here, was actually on the receiving end of the same treatment. If anything, it is far more pertinent to compare humanity to the Jews, given your example, and the alien races to the Nazis. Do you still support that the Imperium shouldn't fight back against those xenos?

Look, I appreciate the knee-jerk "but what if it was Jews instead?" point, but it's simply not the same thing at all.

Genocide isn’t ever justifiable. Regardless of evil or good. The imperium commits genocide on a regular basis and has it as one of its fundamental tenets. It always has. That alone, regardless of slavers on Jupiter makes the imperium an horrific regime.

Yes, genocide isn't good. I'm certainly not arguing in support of genocide. What I am arguing is that the Imperium, if it wants to survive (which it wants to do), it must commit that genocide. The reason for this is because, as shown by the unprovoked attack by the xeno "allies", trust is something that the Imperium cannot have with it's alien allies. They cannot risk a second case of that. The Imperium is exceptionally hardline on this - if something doesn't work (AI, xeno allies, widespread psykers), then it is crushed and never looked back on (except by fringe groups).

Genocide is bad. But genocide is the only way for the Imperium to endure. By this idea, yes, the Imperium's very existence is morally bad. That's the price of survival, and probably the most grimdark thing of the setting.
If the situation was "humanity doesn't need to genocide aliens, it just does because it always has", that's not Grimdark so much as it is Grimdumb.
When the situation is "you can only survive by committing the most brutal genocides imaginable", that is Grimdark.

The British (which I am) took slaves form west Africa and commit atrocities galore in the region. We were the alien slavers on Jupiter to the people of west Africa. But the people of west Africa, generati9ns on don’t despise the British generations on. If we were to superimpose imperium behaviour on to that real world situation then any British person going near west Africa would be killed instantly. Step foot in Ghana and you would be executed on site. And if they could they would come over and kill every British person they could find. And then go out and try to kill anyone else who was not west African “just in case”. And then even go and kill any west Africans who have been living peacefully with Non west Africans too.

I like your comparison, and it does have merit. However, alternatively - lets go back to the Jew equivalent stated earlier, and run with the idea that the Imperium are the Jews in the situation, and the alien slavers are compared to Nazis.

Now, I think this is more accurate, considering the Nazis wanted to completely eradicate the Jewish race, not enslave and brutalise a portion of it. We, in modern society, support that Nazis were absolutely in the wrong, and it is okay to fight back against that. In fact, we used to aim, as much as possible (although, this attitude seems to be alarmingly fading away), to crush any hints of Nazism and Nazi ideology. How different is that from the Imperium (the oppressed) suppressing the aliens which nearly genocided them?

epronovost wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Take a relatively innocent race like the Tau, for example. They are a minor and naive race who barely have the faintest notion of the threats that face them in the universe. They may have good intentions, but their worldview isn't necessarily any less restrictive and hidebound than that of the Imperium. They just have totally different values and methods, which leave them totally unprepared to effectively face some of the greater powers in the galaxy. Assume that the Imperium of Man never came to be, and humanity joined the Tau and formed one big happy galactic communist federation - then throw in Chaos and nids. How long would they survive based on good will and the greater good?

Considering that the Tau have successfully pushed back a Tyranid Hive Fleet and an Imperial Crusade pretty much simultaniously. Have fought out against several major Ork Waaagh! in their history and did fought against the forces of Chaos on occasion, my best bet is that they would have been fine. Chaos is vulnerable to order and selflessness. The Imperial Creed requires from all obediance and self-sacrifice. In that it's anathema to Chaos. The Greater Good doctrine requires from all obediance and self-sacrifice to the whole community. In that, it's also anathema to Chaos, it's simply an atheist way to oppose Chaos.

You make a great point here abut the tau and to a lesser extant the imperium. The imperium tho is in a way very much similar to chaos. Both chaos gods and the Imperium demand absolute obedience without thought or hesitation. Both are the same in that regard. They both demand mindless obedience. Both also reject sanity or logic. Therecs a great quote in the 8e rule book that goes "A logical argument must be rejected with absolute conviction! " like chaos, the imperium rejects logic and reason.

That's the point of the imperium, it is insane and fanatical. Reason and logic are heresy, things to be crushed, burned and erased from existsence. The imperium embraces hate and fanaticism, that's how it's survived 10,000 years in the 40k universe.

The eldar are sane and rational, and are dying out. The tau are sane and rational but a small bpcandle in a maelstrom of madness.

Orks reject logic and reason in favor of mindless violence, savagery and bloodlust, and are the most successful race in the galaxy.


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BTW I don't really agree with calling the emperor a human supremacist as it kinda links him to white supremacist types, ignorant and hateful morons who are often inbred.

He might be better described as a human survavialist. He places human survival above any other races, but I think the emperor is too wise ad intelligent o look upon the eldar and not admit they are in some ways equal to or superior to humanity. He may not see humanity as superior to the eldar, he simply values its survival more.

 Crimson wrote:
That 'most' aliens 'betrayed' humanity is human propaganda. And even if it was true, hating all aliens is insane. 'Aliens' is not some monolithic group with shared behaviour. Tau are not guilty of the things the Eldar did etc.

I just want to be clear, I am in no way advocating for IRL genocide, I am purely explaining the viewpoints of the IOM in 40k.

When the survival of your species is at stake, it is best not to take any chances. This isn't some ridiculous idea that genociding a particular ethnicity is somehow going to make the world a paradise. In the 40k universe the human race was almost wiped out. If the emperor hadn't stepped in, humanity would have been doomed to a slow fade into extinction. It was all because we trusted aliens.

If after the holocaust, the jews went around exterminating nazis in the same way the nazis did to them, and justified it with "They almost did this to us, the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to do it to them first. We will be safe when all of the nazis are gone. This may be horrible but it is self-defense." it would still be awful, and brutal, but also understandable. This is what the IOM is doing.

@Sgt_Smudge summed it up nicely. In order to survive, the IOM HAS to genocide the xenos. Anything else would be gambling with the future of the human race, and that is absolutely unacceptable in the eyes of most humans in the setting.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
That's the point of the imperium, it is insane and fanatical. Reason and logic are heresy, things to be crushed, burned and erased from existsence. The imperium embraces hate and fanaticism, that's how it's survived 10,000 years in the 40k universe.

The eldar are sane and rational, and are dying out. The tau are sane and rational but a small bpcandle in a maelstrom of madness.

Orks reject logic and reason in favor of mindless violence, savagery and bloodlust, and are the most successful race in the galaxy.

^This too

People seem to forget that the most successful organisms in nature tend to be cruel, violent, and territorial. Those are positive evolutionary traits.

We as humans have been so successful in our biosphere here on earth that we can afford luxuries like morality. On the galactic stage in the 40k universe we cannot.

Let me ask a hypothetical to any readers. What if surviving meant murdering your neighbor and taking everything he has because to do anything else means you and your family starve? What would any of you do in that situation?

The circular login on display in this thread does not disappoint.

w1zard wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That 'most' aliens 'betrayed' humanity is human propaganda. And even if it was true, hating all aliens is insane. 'Aliens' is not some monolithic group with shared behaviour. Tau are not guilty of the things the Eldar did etc.

I just want to be clear, I am in no way advocating for IRL genocide, I am purely explaining the viewpoints of the IOM in 40k.

When the survival of your species is at stake, it is best not to take any chances. This isn't some ridiculous idea that genociding a particular ethnicity is somehow going to make the world a paradise. In the 40k universe the human race was almost wiped out. If the emperor hadn't stepped in, humanity would have been doomed to a slow fade into extinction. It was all because we trusted aliens.

If after the holocaust, the jews went around exterminating nazis in the same way the nazis did to them, and justified it with "They almost did this to us, the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to do it to them first. We will be safe when all of the nazis are gone. This may be horrible but it is self-defense." it would still be awful, and brutal, but also understandable. This is what the IOM is doing.

@Sgt_Smudge summed it up nicely. In order to survive, the IOM HAS to genocide the xenos. Anything else would be gambling with the future of the human race, and that is absolutely unacceptable in the eyes of most humans in the setting.

I think youcre giving xenos too much credit. Humanities fall was mostly due to chaos launching an all out assault on humanity at the height of the DAoT. The collapse of technology, interstellar traver, demonic incursion and invasions across human space, etc. Xenos attacks made it worse, but that were likely mostly orks who the human race never had relations with.

But the worsofmit was chaos and the collapse of technology.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I think youcre giving xenos too much credit. Humanities fall was mostly due to chaos launching an all out assault on humanity at the height of the DAoT. The collapse of technology, interstellar traver, demonic incursion and invasions across human space, etc. Xenos attacks made it worse, but that were likely mostly orks who the human race never had relations with.

But the worsofmit was chaos and the collapse of technology.

I don't think so. Unless you're implying chaos had something to do with the men of iron rebelling, I think chaos were much more interested in the eldar at the time. DAOT humanity collapsed because of the men of iron rebellion coupled with our xeno "allies" rising up and shattering the "federation" thing we had going on.

The birth of Slaanesh really screwed the remnants of humanity over even worse, but I doubt it was an intentional plot on chaos' part to mess with humans. You could even make the argument that the warp storms that roiled the galaxy actually HELPED humanity by isolating pockets of humans everywhere and keeping them safe from the depredations of the xenos.

w1zard wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I think youcre giving xenos too much credit. Humanities fall was mostly due to chaos launching an all out assault on humanity at the height of the DAoT. The collapse of technology, interstellar traver, demonic incursion and invasions across human space, etc. Xenos attacks made it worse, but that were likely mostly orks who the human race never had relations with.

But the worsofmit was chaos and the collapse of technology.

I don't think so. Unless you're implying chaos had something to do with the men of iron rebelling, I think chaos were much more interested in the eldar at the time. DAOT humanity collapsed because of the men of iron rebellion coupled with our xeno "allies" rising up and shattering the "federation" thing we had going on.

The birth of Slaanesh really screwed the remnants of humanity over even worse, but I doubt it was an intentional plot on chaos' part to mess with humans. You could even make the argument that the warp storms that roiled the galaxy actually HELPED humanity by isolating pockets of humans everywhere and keeping them safe from the depredations of the xenos.

In a caiphus Caine novel it was implied chaos corrupted the men of iron.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I think youcre giving xenos too much credit. Humanities fall was mostly due to chaos launching an all out assault on humanity at the height of the DAoT. The collapse of technology, interstellar traver, demonic incursion and invasions across human space, etc. Xenos attacks made it worse, but that were likely mostly orks who the human race never had relations with.

But the worsofmit was chaos and the collapse of technology.

I don't think so. Unless you're implying chaos had something to do with the men of iron rebelling, I think chaos were much more interested in the eldar at the time. DAOT humanity collapsed because of the men of iron rebellion coupled with our xeno "allies" rising up and shattering the "federation" thing we had going on.

The birth of Slaanesh really screwed the remnants of humanity over even worse, but I doubt it was an intentional plot on chaos' part to mess with humans. You could even make the argument that the warp storms that roiled the galaxy actually HELPED humanity by isolating pockets of humans everywhere and keeping them safe from the depredations of the xenos.

In a caiphus Caine novel it was implied chaos corrupted the men of iron.

yeah, wasnt it scrapcode related?

One thing to consider is that you can't really compare two species in the same way you can different cultures of the same race. You're moving onto a whole other level into speciesism, and there's simply not much real world comparison for that, given that we're the only species at our level. Even looking at the most intelligent animals; elephants, dolphins, crows, etc; there's no accepted moral solution to the question of whether we should have more self-granted rights than they do.

You also need to take into account the history of the game. 40k isn't "grimdark" because it's so edgy, it originated as over the top satire. So the Imperium that sacrifices millions a day and kills cute little pink aliens is deliberately over the top. Yes, you can spin it so that there are commonalities with real world governments but at the core it's still satire. Think of the Springtime for Hitler scenes from The Producers as an example. They're Nazis, but in a way which is specifically meant to poke fun at Nazis. Nobody is supposed to come away thinking "man, those Nazis are awesome, they sing and dance so well...I should be a Nazi..." The same way that I hope nobody is reading 40k lore and thinking "man, I really need to round up some Psykers for sacrifice and then find and kill some space aliens..."

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I think youcre giving xenos too much credit. Humanities fall was mostly due to chaos launching an all out assault on humanity at the height of the DAoT. The collapse of technology, interstellar traver, demonic incursion and invasions across human space, etc. Xenos attacks made it worse, but that were likely mostly orks who the human race never had relations with.

But the worsofmit was chaos and the collapse of technology.

I don't think so. Unless you're implying chaos had something to do with the men of iron rebelling, I think chaos were much more interested in the eldar at the time. DAOT humanity collapsed because of the men of iron rebellion coupled with our xeno "allies" rising up and shattering the "federation" thing we had going on.

The birth of Slaanesh really screwed the remnants of humanity over even worse, but I doubt it was an intentional plot on chaos' part to mess with humans. You could even make the argument that the warp storms that roiled the galaxy actually HELPED humanity by isolating pockets of humans everywhere and keeping them safe from the depredations of the xenos.

In a caiphus Caine novel it was implied chaos corrupted the men of iron.

H



yeah, wasnt it scrapcode related?

I can't honestly recall, I seem to remember they found a MoI facility and activated it, amd it started making new MoI but they we're physically deformed and hostile.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
In a caiphus Caine novel it was implied chaos corrupted the men of iron.

The men of iron have never been in the Ciaphas Cain novels. You are thinking of Gaunt's Ghosts where they made a short appearance.

As far as I know, there had been no lore links between the rebellion of the men of iron and scrap code. Although I could be wrong on that, I have never read anything in the lore about it.

Kinstryfe wrote:
The same way that I hope nobody is reading 40k lore and thinking "man, I really need to round up some Psykers for sacrifice and then find and kill some space aliens..."

wait, you're not supposed to want to be like them?


I AM KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!


Jello says "Nazi punks f*^k off!"

I dislike when people attempt to bring a modern morality into the games setting. Here is a shocker for you. Todays "modern" reality of inclusiveness, diversity and understanding are very new concepts in a social setting. To my limited knowledge, it hasn't been done before. However there would be those who akin "social justice" to Marxism I would disagree. The point is, that what we take for normal "good" behavior is not the norm for human kind and never has been. The norm of human morality is pretty apparent in our history.


40k has NO basis in our modern day morality. Zero. The social movements of the 20th century are long gone and unremembered by anyone except Old Person and his ilk. Any attempts to filter this setting in this way are bound to fail.

The empire is a brutal regime that enacts xenocide on a daily basis. You dont have to understand anything beyond that. No one is a good guy in this setting. And I love it.

I've always seen the imperium as being an out growth of mega city one in judge dredd.

Techpriestsupport wrote: I think youcre giving xenos too much credit. Humanities fall was mostly due to chaos launching an all out assault on humanity at the height of the DAoT. The collapse of technology, interstellar traver, demonic incursion and invasions across human space, etc. Xenos attacks made it worse, but that were likely mostly orks who the human race never had relations with.

But the worsofmit was chaos and the collapse of technology.

I didn't get the impression Chaos really did ANYTHING with humanity during the DAoT. Eldar were far more appetising to them. Humanity fell because of the Men of Iron rebelling, and then the xenos kicked them while they were down.

Chaos only really affected the IoM during the Long Night, and then more majorly the Horus Heresy.

Techpriestsupport wrote:In a caiphus Caine novel it was implied chaos corrupted the men of iron.

If we're thinking the same thing, it's from First and Only, the Gaunt's Ghost series - and it's more reasoned that the MoI are corrupted because they've been stuck on a Chaos-corrupted world for ages, not because that's how they were in the DAoT.

My comments were directed primarily at one thing because he has tried to excuse this behaviour by the imperium as ok because species x or y did this. And Sgt smudge you are doing the same thing but more eloquently. In the end the policy of killing all things forgein and alien only serves to protect the imperium. Not humanity. Humanity did survive post age of strife. In various different ways. Many were better off than they are under the imperium. The imperiums only purpose is to maintain its control. Hence it kills anyone who wants to leave and anyone a bit weird looking.

I know real life comparisons are tenuous. But to turn your one around and have the Jews as you say as the imperium. Yes they are right to be scared of a repeat performance by some nazis and right wing types. But instead in the imperiums case they turned it around and decided to destroy, conquer or kill anyone who wasn’t Jewish or questioned their way of life. That wouldn’t have been acceptable.

At the end of the day, we are talking about genocide. Be it aliens or whatever. We are condoning a system that prejudges people and kills them.

I have no issue with that happening in the game setting. As I said it’s a feature of the over the top dystopian style I like about the setting. But people need to accept that that is bad and inexcusable. To claim that a system that murders soooo many people and exploits soooo many people is doing for the good of everyone is foolish.

Like I say. I don’t want to see it changed. I just won’t listen to people say it’s ok because x did this or y did that. Because z didn’t do anything but gets killed anyway.


As or ORKS. They are a species as are th. tyranids that you cannot comexist with. A policy of annihilation against them is understandable. To apply that policy to all aliens probably hurts the imperium more than helps it.


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Table wrote:
I dislike when people attempt to bring a modern morality into the games setting. Here is a shocker for you. Todays "modern" reality of inclusiveness, diversity and understanding are very new concepts in a social setting. To my limited knowledge, it hasn't been done before. However there would be those who akin "social justice" to Marxism I would disagree. The point is, that what we take for normal "good" behavior is not the norm for human kind and never has been. The norm of human morality is pretty apparent in our history.


40k has NO basis in our modern day morality. Zero. The social movements of the 20th century are long gone and unremembered by anyone except Old Person and his ilk. Any attempts to filter this setting in this way are bound to fail.

The empire is a brutal regime that enacts xenocide on a daily basis. You dont have to understand anything beyond that. No one is a good guy in this setting. And I love it.

Here you have missed my point. I prob didn’t make it very clear. I love the setting and don’t want it to change. I dislike people failing to see that there are no good guys. U see it and that is great. Onething doesn’t. So I have had to resort to real world analogies to try to get him to see the unpleasant nature of the imperium. He pedals theories that the emperor was a saint and freed everyone and everyone was happy with way doing things.

Andykp wrote:
My comments were directed primarily at one thing because he has tried to excuse this behaviour by the imperium as ok because species x or y did this. And Sgt smudge you are doing the same thing but more eloquently.

I'm not defending genocide. I'm also not supporting retaliatory strikes, because someone did X Y years ago. I'm saying that the only way humanity can survive is through genocide, and if they didn't do it, they'd be extinct.

That still doesn't mean genocide is okay. A moral view on this would be that humanity should be allowed to be killed off because genocides are morally wrong. But then, then aliens are the ones genociding humans, and that's also not morally okay either. Who's going to punish them for that?

In the end the policy of killing all things forgein and alien only serves to protect the imperium. Not humanity. Humanity did survive post age of strife. In various different ways.

By fighting off the aliens. Which human civilisations survived by submitting to the aliens?

The only one I can think of that comes close is the Interex, but that's because they selectively allied AFTER already fighting off enemies during the Long Night.

Many were better off than they are under the imperium.

I'm sorry? Where are the human civilisations that come anywhere near to the power, size, and survivability of the Imperium? Yes, you can argue that quality of life is better in places compared to some places of the Imperium (except if you're someone on a paradise world, or in the realm of Ultramar pre-Tyrannic Wars or Plague Wars), but they are weaker and less strong than the Imperium. That's not to say that the Imperium is "good" for being that way, but you cannot deny that the Imperium is still standing, and most of those other civilisations are not.

Hence my point, the Imperium is only still standing because of what it does. Because of it's abhorrent xenophobic policy. Now, you can argue (and I'd agree with you) that humanity would be better off extinct than surviving by the means that they do, but I don't think that people of the Imperium see it that way.

The imperiums only purpose is to maintain its control. Hence it kills anyone who wants to leave and anyone a bit weird looking.

When the people that want to leave and people who look a bit weird are very likely going to be either an active or passive threat to your very existence, that kind of policy is helpful for self-defence.

I know real life comparisons are tenuous. But to turn your one around and have the Jews as you say as the imperium. Yes they are right to be scared of a repeat performance by some nazis and right wing types. But instead in the imperiums case they turned it around and decided to destroy, conquer or kill anyone who wasn’t Jewish or questioned their way of life. That wouldn’t have been acceptable.

But the difference between your example and the Imperium is that you're supposing that there's more than just Jews and Nazis. There's Christians, Muslims, etc etc.
In the IoM, there is only the Imperium, and those who represent a threat to it. Of course, that's a VERY IoM centric view of it, but considering that the last time humanity trusted in people who weren't part of the main human collective, they nearly got wiped out. They cannot risk history repeating itself.

At the end of the day, we are talking about genocide. Be it aliens or whatever. We are condoning a system that prejudges people and kills them.

I have no issue with that happening in the game setting. As I said it’s a feature of the over the top dystopian style I like about the setting. But people need to accept that that is bad and inexcusable. To claim that a system that murders soooo many people and exploits soooo many people is doing for the good of everyone is foolish.

And I absolutely agree with genocide being absolutely and inexcusably wrong. I don't condone it, I don't believe it should ever be done. I know it's bad.

However, exactly as you say - it happens in a game setting, and in the universe of that game setting, the ONLY reason humanity endures is because they commit genocide. Yes, it's a bad way that humanity survives. It's probably better morally that humanity dies off. But that's not what they did in that setting, and as part of the setting's universe, genocide is the only way they survive.