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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, can an obvious GW employee in a GW podcast on a GW site actually be a shill? Or just an employee talking about their job and that?

It's less about being a 'shill' and more about the fact that a podcast as this will never be honest.

It can have interesting bits like Jes Goodwin or whoever, but it's never going to criticise anything. It's always going to be 100% positive all the time. It's never going to say if a unit doesn't work in the rules, or needs changing, or that the rules are ambiguous, or that Stompas are are massively overpriced, and so on. It's never going to comment on a miniature in anything other than gushing hyperbolic enthusiasm. The presenter is never going to say "Fish Elves look dumb!" or "I wish there were more variety in Primaris helmets".

It will only ever be positive and, well, look at the pic in my sig. That's what it'll be.

Being positive even about things that are not great isn't necessarily dishonest, there are plenty of folk who can ignore anything negative about things they're passionate about, they just don't see the problems

but you're right in that this sort of show isn't going to be critical about 40K, no more than a football manager will say the team I've got are a bunch of overpaid incompetent, racist, sexist idiots and i'm going to fire all of them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, can an obvious GW employee in a GW podcast on a GW site actually be a shill? Or just an employee talking about their job and that?

It's less about being a 'shill' and more about the fact that a podcast as this will never be honest.

It can have interesting bits like Jes Goodwin or whoever, but it's never going to criticise anything. It's always going to be 100% positive all the time. It's never going to say if a unit doesn't work in the rules, or needs changing, or that the rules are ambiguous, or that Stompas are are massively overpriced, and so on. It's never going to comment on a miniature in anything other than gushing hyperbolic enthusiasm. The presenter is never going to say "Fish Elves look dumb!" or "I wish there were more variety in Primaris helmets".

It will only ever be positive and, well, look at the pic in my sig. That's what it'll be.

I find it kind of refreshing that we get a positive spin. Yes, it's their job. Yes, they won't criticize their own product. But y'know what? The internet is full of content (ie, this forum) that does exactly that, and many youtubers that do exactly that. It's nice that GW, as corporate as they're doing it, are trying to inject some positivity into what, for decades, has been a pretty toxic community.

drbored wrote:
I find it kind of refreshing that we get a positive spin. Yes, it's their job. Yes, they won't criticize their own product. But y'know what? The internet is full of content (ie, this forum) that does exactly that, and many youtubers that do exactly that. It's nice that GW, as corporate as they're doing it, are trying to inject some positivity into what, for decades, has been a pretty toxic community.

Then it's just advertising dressed up as something else.

I see no point to the YouTube equivalent of a late night shopping advert that is masquerading as something informative.

And having a positive spin isn't the problem. You can be positive about things whilst still acknowledging issues that need fixing. I doubt this will ever say talk about rules not working or needing revision. I doubt that the views of the presenters will ever be anything less than 100% in love with whatever product they're talking about. You don't have to be a negative Nancy, or a hard-boiled cynic like me, to present the negatives in something. You can look at the issue and then optimistically brainstorm solutions.

But I can't see that ever happening on this, as they'd have to acknowledge problems in the first place.

 CodeKantorBlue wrote:
I don't know about "Fish Elves", but variety in Primaris helmets is up to the person assembling the model. It's even covered in the podcast. Want to use a Corvus Helm on your Primaris? Do it. Treat it as a chapter relic armour piece. Likewise with Mark 6 shoulder pads.

Kinda missing the point I was making...

If you want a more critical take on gw's stuff, there are plenty of other podcasts that provide it.
I come to an official podcast to hear about the "why" and the "how".
GW podcasts/ livestreams have a decent amount of how but not nearly enough why. They also have way too much "what".
If someone has gone to the trouble of downloading the podcasts, they already know what gw's products are.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Now I am usually not one to jump to conclusions, preferring to keep an open mind. But the way Jes referred to the Primaris as "the marine redesign" at 1:17 definitely made stop and think. It just seemed to be a bit of an odd way to refer to it, more like a replacement range of models than an additional set of units. I know that it is a popular opinion that standard marines are done, but just hearing it referred to in that way I found worthy of note.

I clocked that too. Really unsure if it was a genuine ‘new info’ thing, or just words. If that makes sense?

Interested to see how the Primaris develop going forwards.

I don't know actually. If you listen to how he talks about the Primaris in the last wee section there(after the "they're totes still kitbashable, I swapped a head on one just the other day!" spiel ), it all sounds very much like the(original?) concept was very much more a case of the existing Marines being "upgraded", mentioning how a Primaris Marine might initially wear his new MKX but after a while he'd want his favourite helmet and relic shoulderpad back and so on. We're starting to get a little bit of that aspect now with Calgar, but their initial introduction seems - assuming I'm reading what he's saying and his tone right - like it became a lot more abrupt and...dislocated? As if a bigwig somewhere along the line got nervous about giving players the idea they were replacing Marines and insisted they push the writing more towards them being a new and extra thing.

And now I'm sad because I'm imagining a universe where they just brought in a new range of Marines with the good old fashioned "Oh those? Oh yeah we found an STC down the back of the sofa, totally forgot we had that." thing instead of dumping Cawl and Primarchs and giant catastro-rifts all over the place to try and bodge together a scenario where the Primaris were both new and separate, but also everywhere in every chapter.

Having followed 40k since RT (played rt-5th, now returned to at least buying models since the post-Kirby changes), I found this first episode engaging and interesting. Very cool to hear about Jes's process.

I felt like the discussion was fairly self aware and didn't feel like propaganda. For those hoping for a critical analysis this is obviously not going to be the place for it. I think there is plenty of room between sales pitch and critical analysis for GW to create some compelling content that offers some insight into their process.

Realistically I expect these will vary in quality and how much they are content vs advert. Off to a great start for sure though!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
I find it kind of refreshing that we get a positive spin. Yes, it's their job. Yes, they won't criticize their own product. But y'know what? The internet is full of content (ie, this forum) that does exactly that, and many youtubers that do exactly that. It's nice that GW, as corporate as they're doing it, are trying to inject some positivity into what, for decades, has been a pretty toxic community.

Then it's just advertising dressed up as something else.

I see no point to the YouTube equivalent of a late night shopping advert that is masquerading as something informative.

And having a positive spin isn't the problem. You can be positive about things whilst still acknowledging issues that need fixing. I doubt this will ever say talk about rules not working or needing revision. I doubt that the views of the presenters will ever be anything less than 100% in love with whatever product they're talking about. You don't have to be a negative Nancy, or a hard-boiled cynic like me, to present the negatives in something. You can look at the issue and then optimistically brainstorm solutions.

But I can't see that ever happening on this, as they'd have to acknowledge problems in the first place.

I get what you're saying, and if the Warhammer Community site and videos and podcasts were the only place someone was getting their information, then maybe that might not be for the best in the long-run because you don't really end up with a serious dialogue on how to improve facets of the games/company.

But, I think many hobbyists get their information from plenty of sources (facebook groups, hobby forums, or just chatting with their local friends), and having the company itself put out informative material is nice, especially when it's design/hobby related like this podcast with Jes. It was interesting to get his insight, as rose-tinted as it might be. You take this, as you should any news from the mouth of any company, with a grain of salt.

My hope is that as they continue, more of that positivity will leak into other places, like these forums, and people won't make such incredible knee-jerk world-is-ending reactions to every little thing that comes out of this company. The more we can discuss things like adults, the better.

If you want to discuss things like adults, it usually helps to not to characterise anyone who has a different perspective as being otherwise.

I'm not entirely sure who Yod's replying to?

drbored didn't label me as anything untoward.

drbored wrote:
I get what you're saying, and if the Warhammer Community site and videos and podcasts were the only place someone was getting their information, then maybe that might not be for the best in the long-run because you don't really end up with a serious dialogue on how to improve facets of the games/company.

But, I think many hobbyists get their information from plenty of sources (facebook groups, hobby forums, or just chatting with their local friends), and having the company itself put out informative material is nice, especially when it's design/hobby related like this podcast with Jes. It was interesting to get his insight, as rose-tinted as it might be. You take this, as you should any news from the mouth of any company, with a grain of salt.

My hope is that as they continue, more of that positivity will leak into other places, like these forums, and people won't make such incredible knee-jerk world-is-ending reactions to every little thing that comes out of this company. The more we can discuss things like adults, the better.

Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Multiple sources and all that.

I guess my real issue with this is the main issue I have with pretty much everything GW does (except their prices): They never go far enough for my tastes. They always seem to be holding back and wasting the potential they have. I always see them as a company that could be doing better and bolder things. It's always one big step forward, then a diagonal step to the side, then five little steps back as if what they saw during the step forward frightened them.

I watch the stormcast podcast mostly for the lore and design insights. I could listen to phil kelly talk about Age of Sigmar all day.

Fish elves being "dumb" or cool is base on personal opinion. I don't think that is useful.

xking wrote:
Fish elves being "dumb" or cool is base on personal opinion. I don't think that is useful.

Again, not really the point I was making...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
I find it kind of refreshing that we get a positive spin. Yes, it's their job. Yes, they won't criticize their own product. But y'know what? The internet is full of content (ie, this forum) that does exactly that, and many youtubers that do exactly that. It's nice that GW, as corporate as they're doing it, are trying to inject some positivity into what, for decades, has been a pretty toxic community.

Then it's just advertising dressed up as something else.

I see no point to the YouTube equivalent of a late night shopping advert that is masquerading as something informative.

And having a positive spin isn't the problem. You can be positive about things whilst still acknowledging issues that need fixing. I doubt this will ever say talk about rules not working or needing revision. I doubt that the views of the presenters will ever be anything less than 100% in love with whatever product they're talking about. You don't have to be a negative Nancy, or a hard-boiled cynic like me, to present the negatives in something. You can look at the issue and then optimistically brainstorm solutions.

But I can't see that ever happening on this, as they'd have to acknowledge problems in the first place.

 CodeKantorBlue wrote:
I don't know about "Fish Elves", but variety in Primaris helmets is up to the person assembling the model. It's even covered in the podcast. Want to use a Corvus Helm on your Primaris? Do it. Treat it as a chapter relic armour piece. Likewise with Mark 6 shoulder pads.

Kinda missing the point I was making...

I'm not sure that is the point of this program HBMC. This seems more like a weekly show that will give us a behind the scenes look, it's not meant to discuss rules, tournament play or points. I would say that if you're looking for that, there are plenty of third party groups that provide such services, and I'm sure that GW proper knows this.

There was nothing gushing or hyperbolic about what I just watched. Jes is usually more honest than the bosses would like. No, it doesn’t drag GW products and rules, but no, their own show is never going to. GW have been openly critical of their failings on Twitch interviews before, so maybe just watch and decide if it’s a show you enjoy and want to keep watching? There seems little point in pre-judging when no one knows what they’ve got lined up. And if you want hyper critical, well, YouTube has no shortage of shrieking about what is ‘broken’, ‘garbage’, or otherwise able to garner clicks to gain ad revenue. Everyone is selling something...

Did I say I want them to be hyper-critical?

One of those days you folks are going to start responding to what I say, rather than what you think I said/wish I'd said.

I look forward to that day...

Try responding politely instead of polarising further then. Unless you just want a fight then crack on, but the mods will squash that pretty quickly.

It is advertising. If you don’t see a point in it or enjoy it that’s fine. Leave others to enjoy it instead of decrying it’s existence. It was a nice interview. Maybe see what the series holds before pre-trashing it.

It’s worth watching, as is any interview where the subject is one that’s a passion of the interviewee.

The criticism's there if you listen to it; specifically, the comments about how the themes of the "big four" chapters have become more simplified than Jes and John originally intended, or how some of the later Space Marines were becoming overburdened with bling.

And that Jes wasn't a fan of the angular Warlord Titan preferring, like all right thinking minds, the more curved armour of the Beetle Backs.

Originally I preferred that angular style, but I've since been cured of that malady. The release of the AT Warlord was the final nail in the coffin. I wasn't sure about the 40k-sized model I thought it looked too squat and wide, but having the plastic model in my hand changed my opinion.

Really enjoyed listening to Jes talk about his design process and career- I'd love to hear more from him on specific ranges like eldar and tyrannids. I suppose what we are not going to get is how he envisions things moving forward. He did imply that Ynnari aren't a new faction as such but more of an evolution of the eldar range. Also how they are now looking at opening things up more, breaking the idea of a fixed set of armies. I think I'd like to hear more of that- even in broad terms -how they plan on developing things further.

I imagine we might see him back - get a whole hour on Space Marines or Eldar or whatever. More likely to be on the history than what's upcoming. After all, whaqtever he's doing now probably won't surface until 2023 - or might never appear at all.

Quite enjoyed it, listened to it twice whilst working. Kudos to Wade for simply guiding it by asking a question or remarking on something and letting Jes just take it from there with the anecdotes and history.

It was fun to hear Jes say that the Imperial Knight kit was an all or nothing project of his to see if he could get away with it and to make a giant robot of his own.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Did I say I want them to be hyper-critical?

One of those days you folks are going to start responding to what I say, rather than what you think I said/wish I'd said.

I look forward to that day...

Hey, at least people did read your posts before giving their negative opinion on them!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Did I say I want them to be hyper-critical?

One of those days you folks are going to start responding to what I say, rather than what you think I said/wish I'd said.

I look forward to that day...

I dunno, it really reads like you were complaining for the sake of complaining to be honest.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Now I am usually not one to jump to conclusions, preferring to keep an open mind. But the way Jes referred to the Primaris as "the marine redesign" at 1:17 definitely made stop and think. It just seemed to be a bit of an odd way to refer to it, more like a replacement range of models than an additional set of units. I know that it is a popular opinion that standard marines are done, but just hearing it referred to in that way I found worthy of note.

I clocked that too. Really unsure if it was a genuine ‘new info’ thing, or just words. If that makes sense?

Interested to see how the Primaris develop going forwards.

I don't know actually. If you listen to how he talks about the Primaris in the last wee section there(after the "they're totes still kitbashable, I swapped a head on one just the other day!" spiel ), it all sounds very much like the(original?) concept was very much more a case of the existing Marines being "upgraded", mentioning how a Primaris Marine might initially wear his new MKX but after a while he'd want his favourite helmet and relic shoulderpad back and so on. We're starting to get a little bit of that aspect now with Calgar, but their initial introduction seems - assuming I'm reading what he's saying and his tone right - like it became a lot more abrupt and...dislocated? As if a bigwig somewhere along the line got nervous about giving players the idea they were replacing Marines and insisted they push the writing more towards them being a new and extra thing.

And now I'm sad because I'm imagining a universe where they just brought in a new range of Marines with the good old fashioned "Oh those? Oh yeah we found an STC down the back of the sofa, totally forgot we had that." thing instead of dumping Cawl and Primarchs and giant catastro-rifts all over the place to try and bodge together a scenario where the Primaris were both new and separate, but also everywhere in every chapter.

To be honest, if they did that, we would be complaining about it, because we would lack the insight of the worse alternative (Our current timeline). Just like when they did that with Centurions.

I was worried it would just be an over glorified commercial for GW, but it was a load better than that. I hope they keep their podcasts as this sort of peek behind the curtain.

 Galas wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Now I am usually not one to jump to conclusions, preferring to keep an open mind. But the way Jes referred to the Primaris as "the marine redesign" at 1:17 definitely made stop and think. It just seemed to be a bit of an odd way to refer to it, more like a replacement range of models than an additional set of units. I know that it is a popular opinion that standard marines are done, but just hearing it referred to in that way I found worthy of note.

I clocked that too. Really unsure if it was a genuine ‘new info’ thing, or just words. If that makes sense?

Interested to see how the Primaris develop going forwards.

I don't know actually. If you listen to how he talks about the Primaris in the last wee section there(after the "they're totes still kitbashable, I swapped a head on one just the other day!" spiel ), it all sounds very much like the(original?) concept was very much more a case of the existing Marines being "upgraded", mentioning how a Primaris Marine might initially wear his new MKX but after a while he'd want his favourite helmet and relic shoulderpad back and so on. We're starting to get a little bit of that aspect now with Calgar, but their initial introduction seems - assuming I'm reading what he's saying and his tone right - like it became a lot more abrupt and...dislocated? As if a bigwig somewhere along the line got nervous about giving players the idea they were replacing Marines and insisted they push the writing more towards them being a new and extra thing.

And now I'm sad because I'm imagining a universe where they just brought in a new range of Marines with the good old fashioned "Oh those? Oh yeah we found an STC down the back of the sofa, totally forgot we had that." thing instead of dumping Cawl and Primarchs and giant catastro-rifts all over the place to try and bodge together a scenario where the Primaris were both new and separate, but also everywhere in every chapter.

To be honest, if they did that, we would be complaining about it, because we would lack the insight of the worse alternative (Our current timeline). Just like when they did that with Centurions.

Ah but see, that's the thing - loads of us complained about Centurions. And Chibi-Hawks. And loads of other stuff. But once we got over them wasting development resources and a release slot on some pretty wonky models...we could just ignore them. You could just say your chapter doesn't use them, or your company from Named Chapter X doesn't, or just ignore their existence entirely. Primaris though? What was done to insert them and the way they were inserted are not ignorable, they form a hard line that you either step across and accept them, or refuse to step across and get "left behind" now GW have moved from developing a setting to producing an ongoing plot. You can't say your chapter doesn't use them, because GW wrote that possibility out of existence with Our Spiritual Liege's Primaris Magical Mystery Tour, with special guest appearance by the Bananamen Messengers - everybody uses Primaris. You can't say your company doesn't use them, because the Mystery Tour was also written as including a rewrite of the Codex so all companies have them(even apparently in chapters that don't follow the codex, somehow...). And you certainly can't ignore them, because in order to meet that "new, separate, but also everywhere" standard, they tore the galaxy in half and shifted the tone of the whole IP by beginning the process of bringing back loyalist Primarchs. Heck one of the homebrew chapters I did was basically wiped out "off screen" by GW's changes, because the entire sector they primarily operated in is just gone, swallowed up by the rift.

If they'd introduced Primaris in the old way, I'm sure lots of folk would have complained, but eventually most folk who felt that way would just ignore them, or fall back to occasional jokes at their expense.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Ah but see, that's the thing - loads of us complained about Centurions. And Chibi-Hawks. And loads of other stuff. But once we got over them wasting development resources and a release slot on some pretty wonky models...we could just ignore them. You could just say your chapter doesn't use them, or your company from Named Chapter X doesn't, or just ignore their existence entirely. Primaris though? What was done to insert them and the way they were inserted are not ignorable, they form a hard line that you either step across and accept them, or refuse to step across and get "left behind" now GW have moved from developing a setting to producing an ongoing plot. You can't say your chapter doesn't use them, because GW wrote that possibility out of existence with Our Spiritual Liege's Primaris Magical Mystery Tour, with special guest appearance by the Bananamen Messengers - everybody uses Primaris. You can't say your company doesn't use them, because the Mystery Tour was also written as including a rewrite of the Codex so all companies have them(even apparently in chapters that don't follow the codex, somehow...). And you certainly can't ignore them, because in order to meet that "new, separate, but also everywhere" standard, they tore the galaxy in half and shifted the tone of the whole IP by beginning the process of bringing back loyalist Primarchs. Heck one of the homebrew chapters I did was basically wiped out "off screen" by GW's changes, because the entire sector they primarily operated in is just gone, swallowed up by the rift.

If they'd introduced Primaris in the old way, I'm sure lots of folk would have complained, but eventually most folk who felt that way would just ignore them, or fall back to occasional jokes at their expense.

You can just cherry pick the fluff you want, and adapt around it however you like. 40k lore is one of the loosest there is. For example, the rift didn't destroy that system, it warped space around it and shifted it a bit. Or it is in the warp, but only right on the surface, so you get daemon invasions but enough that can be defended against. Your chapter doesn't have primaris because they weren't reachable by storms, or records were lost in a fire, or the ships were attacked en route.

In 40k you can reason almost anything with about a minutes though. My favourite is "administrative error", as it can explain anything! I'm almost tempted to ask for challenges of things to explain. Of course, it is a lot easier when you are working at the edges. Trying to fluff Guilliman turning to chaos and then go get killed on the Tau homeworld is a bit of a stretch.

I'd be tempted to go for the 'records suggest the chapter was wiped out XXXX years ago so they're one of the refounded Primeris chapters'

of course the records are wrong (well probably, the warp does strange things with time and space) and now there are 2 chapters with the same name each thinking they're the only correct, loyal ones

 Trickstick wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Ah but see, that's the thing - loads of us complained about Centurions. And Chibi-Hawks. And loads of other stuff. But once we got over them wasting development resources and a release slot on some pretty wonky models...we could just ignore them. You could just say your chapter doesn't use them, or your company from Named Chapter X doesn't, or just ignore their existence entirely. Primaris though? What was done to insert them and the way they were inserted are not ignorable, they form a hard line that you either step across and accept them, or refuse to step across and get "left behind" now GW have moved from developing a setting to producing an ongoing plot. You can't say your chapter doesn't use them, because GW wrote that possibility out of existence with Our Spiritual Liege's Primaris Magical Mystery Tour, with special guest appearance by the Bananamen Messengers - everybody uses Primaris. You can't say your company doesn't use them, because the Mystery Tour was also written as including a rewrite of the Codex so all companies have them(even apparently in chapters that don't follow the codex, somehow...). And you certainly can't ignore them, because in order to meet that "new, separate, but also everywhere" standard, they tore the galaxy in half and shifted the tone of the whole IP by beginning the process of bringing back loyalist Primarchs. Heck one of the homebrew chapters I did was basically wiped out "off screen" by GW's changes, because the entire sector they primarily operated in is just gone, swallowed up by the rift.

If they'd introduced Primaris in the old way, I'm sure lots of folk would have complained, but eventually most folk who felt that way would just ignore them, or fall back to occasional jokes at their expense.

You can just cherry pick the fluff you want, and adapt around it however you like. 40k lore is one of the loosest there is. For example, the rift didn't destroy that system, it warped space around it and shifted it a bit. Or it is in the warp, but only right on the surface, so you get daemon invasions but enough that can be defended against. Your chapter doesn't have primaris because they weren't reachable by storms, or records were lost in a fire, or the ships were attacked en route.

In 40k you can reason almost anything with about a minutes though. My favourite is "administrative error", as it can explain anything! I'm almost tempted to ask for challenges of things to explain. Of course, it is a lot easier when you are working at the edges. Trying to fluff Guilliman turning to chaos and then go get killed on the Tau homeworld is a bit of a stretch.

Or, I can just ignore all of it and continue playing the good setting I already like - 40K - rather than spending all of my time rewriting all my own stuff because of GW's changes. And continue doing that indefinitely, because they're clearly committed to an ongoing, galaxy-affecting plot now.

Besides which, some of those explanations wouldn't work because GW didn't leave room for them to work. Every chapter uses Primaris. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions, they were *all* visited by or communicated to by Rowboat and a Custodian with a personal message from Papa Corpsicle commanding they obey. In order to have a chapter so isolated that Rowboat couldn't even get them on the phone over the course of a century long crusade that toddled about all over the Galaxy, they would have to be pee-drinking recluses living out in the Halo Stars never leaving their homeworld, and never interact with the Imperium proper again(because if they did, they'd be contacted by Rowboat and "gifted" Primaris). Plus if you like the actual named chapters, forgeddit. And if a planet is right in the rift, then it's done for, basically a daemon world like the ones the older material described in the Eye of Terror - warped realities, whims of gods, rampant mutation etc etc.

The strength of 40K was that it was loose and ambiguous, and that GW rarely told stories in the setting that were both "present day" and had major consequences beyond the immediate location; the former is only true now insofar as the old background continues to exist until directly contradicted, but the latter is firmly out the window - the timeline has advanced into "not-41K" and will keep advancing, and they're going to keep introducing big, galaxy-shifting events in order to justify releasing stuff like Primarchs.