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 Peregrine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have a 16.7% chance to save that wound. 20% is not correct.

No, it's absolutely correct because the durability effect is recursive. You have a 16.7% chance to save, but say you have a 10-wound model and roll 10 individual saves against 1-damage wounds. You save 1/6 of them, which effectively gives you 1.6666 additional wounds. Then you save another 1/6 of those wounds, adding another 0.27. Then you save another 1/6 of that 0.27. The end result is you add ~1.99 additional wounds to the 10-wound model, a 20% increase in durability.

Exactly.

Its also why 5+++ seems like such a big jump over 6+++, because it goes from 20% to 50%.

6+++ is inefficient against multi-damage weapons where the damage exceeds the number of (remaining) wounds. The benefits became insignificant quickly.

It's a 20% increase in durability when looking at D1 weapons against W1 targets,

But it gets better than 20% when you are using a D2 weapon against W2 models, even better for D3 weapon against W3 models and it keeps scaling up.

A tyranid warrior simply dies when wounded by the overcharged Cawl's Wrath. A leviathan warrior has a 50% chance of surviving the hit.

Karol wrote:
Well that depends on the stratagem right. If a BAs only way to beat a DE soup is to wing a cpt in to range and charge the desintegrator platforms turn one, and you can always stop the wings, it becomes game winning. Same with stoping a castellan standing up, from a pure points perspective it is killing an uber unit a second time for 4CP.

Yeah it comes down to the stratagems.

AoVing a reroll probably isn't worth it, unless you have the space CP in turn 5, or its something pivotal.

But AoVing say an Order of Companions is massive.

There is also the impact on the game. Being harsh - 40k players, even the best, tend to be amateurs if you like. They are not training 8 hours a day every day (or at least as far as I am aware). They tend to have a rhythm - this unit goes here, using this stratagem, so it gets this synergy and should kill X and Y etc etc. With AoV you have the ability to mess with that and it really breaks their flow. Not as much at the top end obviously - but people are not computers. They can start second guessing themselves, start over compensating and just generally make mistakes.

Then again I think AoV should have been handed out to everyone. The game would have to evolve - but that wouldn't be a bad thing. There should be a counter play to powerful stratagems.

Karol wrote:
Well that depends on the stratagem right. If a BAs only way to beat a DE soup is to wing a cpt in to range and charge the desintegrator platforms turn one, and you can always stop the wings, it becomes game winning. Same with stoping a castellan standing up, from a pure points perspective it is killing an uber unit a second time for 4CP.

Exactly, it's situational. Sometimes it's invaluable, sometimes it's useful, sometimes it's useless. The 6+++ to all the vehicles is an auto bonus that ALWAYS rewards.

6+++ is very powerful when stacks with other saves, tipycally invulns, and lots of wounds actually get that FNP roll. In other words you need to make that bonus count as having 10%+ of free stuff in terms of durability, like 200+ points saved by rolling 6s out of a 2000 point list. Of course on just 50-60 wounds of marines it's bland.

Maybe not as strong in tournaments though since 2-3 turns game are more about brutalizing the first turns than avoiding getting tabled. Many competitive lists aren't performing at high levels in real games with no time limitations because they can score a lot in the first turn but also suffering a lot of casualties allowing the opponent to hypotetically dominate the game from turn 4+ if only games lasted that long. Like index orks green tides that placed well at some events. Maybe if games end in turn 3 having more durability isn't as vital as in regular games.

I am, as far as I am aware, the only person experimenting with snakebites. Grots will be a big key I feel as I really need to squeeze any benefits out of them... but I wish they had 6+++ as well.

It seems they overestimate saves in general. I think part of that is because they reintroduced the AP penalty. Think about when that was last around, all the way back in 2nd edition. The game is VASTLY different from how it was back then. Back then it wasn't super common to have a ton of special weapons, you paid a good bit for them and having something like a Dreadnought or a single tank was major firepower (a Land Raider, which didn't have a model at that point, was the largest tank in the game if you didn't count the ridiculous Armorcast stuff that was the same as Forgeworld is now).

Wayniac wrote:
It seems they overestimate saves in general. I think part of that is because they reintroduced the AP penalty. Think about when that was last around, all the way back in 2nd edition. The game is VASTLY different from how it was back then. Back then it wasn't super common to have a ton of special weapons, you paid a good bit for them and having something like a Dreadnought or a single tank was major firepower (a Land Raider, which didn't have a model at that point, was the largest tank in the game if you didn't count the ridiculous Armorcast stuff that was the same as Forgeworld is now).

LRs had models back to RT times.

Even in 2nd it seemed that saves were not all that. Almost everything relevant had a AP mod, so save were not as good as you’d hope. But there were also mods to hit at the time, so you did get layered defense.

6+ FNP is too little, 5+ FNP is way too much. What if the 6+ traits came with a stratagem which allowed you to improve it to 5+ for one unit for one turn (or at least a phase)? Then instead of being just a passive resilience buff beyond your control you could leverage it in a situation where you really needed something to survive.

I think a 6+ ability to ignore wounds is pretty big honestly. Why?

Simple: it has no limitations. Even the best traits (-1 to hit, etc.) have limitations. They don't work at certain ranges, they don't work vs. weapons that auto-hit, they don't work vs. Mortal Wounds (psychic smite spam, etc.). Whereas a simple 6+ ability to ignore wounds is just dog reliable and is everpresent. I don't think I know of a single method in the game to ignore or bypass it. It's just there, all the time, every single time you suffer a wound.

I think you have to consider that when comparing it to other traits.

 Elbows wrote:
I think a 6+ ability to ignore wounds is pretty big honestly. Why?

Simple: it has no limitations. Even the best traits (-1 to hit, etc.) have limitations. They don't work at certain ranges, they don't work vs. weapons that auto-hit, they don't work vs. Mortal Wounds (psychic smite spam, etc.). Whereas a simple 6+ ability to ignore wounds is just dog reliable and is everpresent. I don't think I know of a single method in the game to ignore or bypass it. It's just there, all the time, every single time you suffer a wound.

I think you have to consider that when comparing it to other traits.

Tell that to Leviathan Trait 6" of a Sinapse creature for a 6+++... HORRIBLE

Wayniac wrote:
It seems they overestimate saves in general. I think part of that is because they reintroduced the AP penalty. Think about when that was last around, all the way back in 2nd edition. The game is VASTLY different from how it was back then. Back then it wasn't super common to have a ton of special weapons, you paid a good bit for them and having something like a Dreadnought or a single tank was major firepower (a Land Raider, which didn't have a model at that point, was the largest tank in the game if you didn't count the ridiculous Armorcast stuff that was the same as Forgeworld is now).

I get this... and with this huge points decrease everything feels smaller even more. I want my super soldiers to feel like super soldiers again! But right now we have a game where Baneblades are common in less than 1k point lists... I love my big games where everything dies but that's called Epic and Armageddon. I want a nice balance between killteam and normal 1k points matches.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think a 6+ ability to ignore wounds is pretty big honestly. Why?

Simple: it has no limitations. Even the best traits (-1 to hit, etc.) have limitations. They don't work at certain ranges, they don't work vs. weapons that auto-hit, they don't work vs. Mortal Wounds (psychic smite spam, etc.). Whereas a simple 6+ ability to ignore wounds is just dog reliable and is everpresent. I don't think I know of a single method in the game to ignore or bypass it. It's just there, all the time, every single time you suffer a wound.

I think you have to consider that when comparing it to other traits.

Tell that to Leviathan Trait 6" of a Sinapse creature for a 6+++... HORRIBLE

Sure, but we're not talking about that one specific case are we? It's the only trait like that with limitations. Does that particular hive fleet have any additional rules? Because the Eldar 6+ ignore wound trait...that's it, that's all they get.

One thing about a 6+ is that you can’t rely on it. Statistically, it’s a solid boost over the long term, but short term the mood of our fickle little six-sided friends have a lot to say on the subject. Which is why it seems better on models with lots of wounds or large blocks of troops. Gives the statistics a little more wiggle room to even out.

Some things that happen on 6’s, like MWs on wound rolls, can be leveraged with re-rolls to be a little more reliable. But not a 6+++ save.

 Elbows wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think a 6+ ability to ignore wounds is pretty big honestly. Why?

Simple: it has no limitations. Even the best traits (-1 to hit, etc.) have limitations. They don't work at certain ranges, they don't work vs. weapons that auto-hit, they don't work vs. Mortal Wounds (psychic smite spam, etc.). Whereas a simple 6+ ability to ignore wounds is just dog reliable and is everpresent. I don't think I know of a single method in the game to ignore or bypass it. It's just there, all the time, every single time you suffer a wound.

I think you have to consider that when comparing it to other traits.

Tell that to Leviathan Trait 6" of a Sinapse creature for a 6+++... HORRIBLE

Sure, but we're not talking about that one specific case are we? It's the only trait like that with limitations. Does that particular hive fleet have any additional rules? Because the Eldar 6+ ignore wound trait...that's it, that's all they get.

Nothing more, it's flying rodent gak

The strength of a 6+++ varies on the wounds of the model and damage of the weapon.

Saving one wound from a 3 damage weapon is incredibly good when your model has 3 wounds.

It literally cuts the effectiveness of that gun in half.

There is a huge difference in those armies that only get to use it for Infantry (Sisters) or a bit more (Marines) compared to those who get it for everything (so pretty much every other faction)

It works much better on vehicles due to more wounds and for no apparent reason certain factions have that denied to them.

Also note the odds of rolling at least one 6 on 3D6 is ~43% and ~31% for 2D6

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
6+++ to the entire army is a decent bonus. Works for orks and drukhari. Snakebites are bland because other kulturs have more effective bonuses and the relic, stratagem, trait related to snakebites are not particularly interesting, not because their 6+++ isn't useful. People bring painboyz in order to add that 6+++ that only provides a tiny aura, a free 6+++ to the entire army, including vehicles, is a strong bonus. Main reason I use Black Heart for drukhari isn't the relic that allows the re-roll wound of 1s for ravagers or Agents of Vect, it's the 6+++ to all my 7-8 vehicles that makes them more durable.

6+++ only to infantries, especially elite ones, is absolute trash.

5+++ to the entire army is absolute power creep.

You can't be serious. Agents of Vect is the only reason to use Black Heart.
Compare to getting to Ignore Cover and rerolling to hit with several weapons or gaining extra range, you're saying with a straight face you're taking that Kabal for what amounts to basically 1-2 extra wounds for your vehicle.

That's almost trying to be contradictory for the sheer sake of being contradictory.

Absolutely not! The Black Heart cabal shines because it has 6+++ for vehicles, trait, stratagem and relic that are good. It's the combination of all this stuff, not only the stratagem. But Agent of Vects is overrated, it costs 4 CPs and it doesn't change the sort of the game most of the times. Sometimes it can be invaluable though and I'm not saying that it's useless, just that it isn't the main thing about the Black Heart cabal. When you have 60 wounds of vehicles on the table that 6+++ means an extra vehicle or a delaying in the degrading table. Having tougher vehicles is always good since most of our competitive units are vehicles, while denying a stratagem investing 4 CPs (which are a lot, usually 33% ish of the CPs available) is not a must. But the 6+++ for vehicles works in general not only for drukhari: orks battlewagon has +2-3W on average with 6+++, it means that it can soak one additional anti tank hit that goes through saves, a bonus that can also stack with a KFF.

Ignore cover and those re-roll hits of 1s are not that good since poison is absolute trash. The archon allows all the re-rolls of 1s thanks to his aura and it doesn't do much other than that. Extra range? Quite useless on most of the weapons, our main shooters are the ravagers that have 36'' + 14''=50'' range without buffs, same for raiders, flyers have even 36''+20'' or more, scourges deep strike.... That extra range looks good on paper, in fact I admit I started with that cabal but soon abandoned because I noticed that it didn't make any significant difference. We don't play as a gunline.

I think you assume things without having any experience about.

Of course Agents of Vect seems overrated if you're planning to use it on something like "Go! Recon!" or "Tactical Flexibility" instead of something big like "Descent Of Angels" or "Rotate Ion Shields". Your terrible timing is none of my concern, but it's the main reason to use that Kabal. Otherwise Skull and Rose are vastly superior.

I also line you bring up the Archon providing rerolls as though he'll be on foot to provide that. I don't think you actually play the army like you say you do, and you're just straight being contradictory for the sake of it.

drbored wrote:+++6 is underwhelming.

+++5 is powerful (and frustrating to play against).

There's no middle ground because we're stuck on a d6 system.

I agree, though, that chapter tactics/factions that have this particular trait really need something else on top of it to make it worth it.

Daedalus81 wrote:Also note the odds of rolling at least one 6 on 3D6 is ~43% and ~31% for 2D6

These both posts boil down to D6 system being prohibitive balancing and even noveltywise. One needs to do extremely complex rolling rules to allow finely refined differences in D6 system, instead of the huge jumps we get now. But then the playing bogs down because of complex rolling rules.

Also significant portion of factions are kind of joke, fluff-factions if you start comparing them between peer-factions, which is a shame.

I wouldn't say it's a limitation to the humble D6 (something that can be manipulated brilliantly with well written rules) it's a simple fact that GW is very hesitant to spend time creating genuinely crafted rules, other than going to the toolbox and picking one of their two rules mechanics:

1) re-roll something.
2) ignore something.

6+ FNP is really strong on multi wound models. A vehicle with say 12 wounds and FNP statistically speaking gains two extra wounds.
On infantry it's a nice bonus, ESPECIALLY for hordes. Tau Fire Warrior spam for example benefits big time from an Ethereal handing out FNP in addition to quasi morale immunity.

5+ FNP becomes overpowered really quickly, especially if stacked with good invul. saves, so it absolutely should be the exception and not the norm and reserved for expensive units that compensate with their own drawbacks.

 Carnikang wrote:
Can Leviathan's 6+++ work outside of 6" of a synapse creature please? That's all I ask, though bumping it to a 5+ would make it more useful for Nids. Would completely invalidate Catalyst, but I would rather ask for a new psychic powers than an entirely new Hive Fleet trait.

Agreed - the only requirement should be synapse range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
6+++ is very strong actually. 17% damage reduction including mortal wounds is amazing. It's just not as good as -1 to hit. Which should probably be removed as an army trait.

I think the only way you could possibly hope to get some sort of balance out of faction traits is by having them work like veteran skills in CSM 3.5. Each one adds 1 - 3 points per model in the squad (say 5 - 20 to characters, MCs, and vehicles). You only get access to that one trait and you have to decide if it's worth putting it on a mob of chaffe or save it for elites. I realize that this will probably be unpopular because it means you'd actually have to pay to make your army special, but it's better than GW trying to pretend all traits are equal.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Of course Agents of Vect seems overrated if you're planning to use it on something like "Go! Recon!" or "Tactical Flexibility" instead of something big like "Descent Of Angels" or "Rotate Ion Shields". Your terrible timing is none of my concern, but it's the main reason to use that Kabal. Otherwise Skull and Rose are vastly superior.

I also line you bring up the Archon providing rerolls as though he'll be on foot to provide that. I don't think you actually play the army like you say you do, and you're just straight being contradictory for the sake of it.

Nah, you don't play the game at all, at least not with drukhari, you just do some theory hammer. The archon with Writ of the living muse (basically mandatory with Black Heart) is ALWAYS on foot, there's not a single player in the world that embarks him somewhere, since the relic doesn't work otherwise. The other archon, that tipycally has a blaster, can be embarked but since snipers are not a thing in competitive games he can be on foot as well. What happens in many games is that the coven stuff, the kabalites that disembarked from wrecked vehicles and the functioning vehicles screen the blaster archon who doesn't need protection. Outside his aura he just has that single blaster shot, he sucks in combat. We take archons only because they're the HQ tax, but in fact they don't do a lot of work other than providing their auras. Oh, they also can rely on a powerful stratagem that inflicts mortal wounds with their phantasm granade launcher, like Smite, and that's another reason why you'll want your archon outside his vehicle after turn 1 or 2. If index options are not allowed, he can't even fire that blaster, which is the only reason why you may want him inside a raider or venom.

Flayed Skull and (especially) Obsidian Rose vastly superior than 6+++ to vehicles, writ of the living muse and crafting CPs thanks to the Black Heart trait? Oh my. But it's ok, I also though that Obsidian Rose was amazing before actually playing the army. If you play just a few games you'll notice yourself. There's not a single reason to take the Obsidian Rose over another cabal while Flayed Skulls have definitely a niche but deleting hordes with poison is hard and the ignore cover doesn't work on 20-30 mob since they won't be in cover tipycally while smaller units, especially elite ones, are melt by diss cannons. Spam those cannons, not poison with a tiny buff to take care of infantries.

Agents of Vect negates one stratagem per turn, of course it's triggered against one stratagem that is effective, but the opponent can have more than a single effective combo. Agents of Vect saved my army's ass more than once, the 6+++ on the vehicles even more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

6+++ is very strong actually. 17% damage reduction including mortal wounds is amazing. It's just not as good as -1 to hit. Which should probably be removed as an army trait.

I agree. A free -1 to hit to the entire army is insane.

I think it depends on the base cost of the model. 6+++ or even a 6++ on a horde unit is amazing because that's saving a ton of models over the course of a game assuming generally average rolling. If your rolling hot it can skew the game. On a marine model it's ok, might save one guy in the squad.

As a DE player who goes Black Heart and has 7+ vehicles, the 6+++ isnt worth much. The 5++ on those vehicles is much nicer, with Coven 4++ being even better (on my Grots/Taloi, not vehicles).

I would say the ability is supposed to be more for the +1 PfP and AoV. The 6+++ is not overvalued in the mix.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think it depends on the base cost of the model. 6+++ or even a 6++ on a horde unit is amazing because that's saving a ton of models over the course of a game assuming generally average rolling. If your rolling hot it can skew the game. On a marine model it's ok, might save one guy in the squad.

This is bad math. A 6+++ is of equal value on all models (other than the overkill problem) because its value is a percentage of the model cost. A horde unit will save more models, but each model is of less value than the single elite model that it saves.

 Peregrine wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think it depends on the base cost of the model. 6+++ or even a 6++ on a horde unit is amazing because that's saving a ton of models over the course of a game assuming generally average rolling. If your rolling hot it can skew the game. On a marine model it's ok, might save one guy in the squad.

This is bad math. A 6+++ is of equal value on all models (other than the overkill problem) because its value is a percentage of the model cost. A horde unit will save more models, but each model is of less value than the single elite model that it saves.

6+++ actually gets less useful the higher your save. On high save models you are more likely to get hit with multidamage weapons because they have on average an higher AP, so a 6+++ on a gaunt will almost always be an increase in durability of 20%, but on a marine it will be a bit less.

Fisheyes wrote:
As a DE player who goes Black Heart and has 7+ vehicles, the 6+++ isnt worth much. The 5++ on those vehicles is much nicer, with Coven 4++ being even better (on my Grots/Taloi, not vehicles).

I would say the ability is supposed to be more for the +1 PfP and AoV. The 6+++ is not overvalued in the mix.

When do you use the +1 PfP for a Black Heart unit? You don't want kabalites in combat in turn 1 and even if they are that +1 is not going to add anything. Tipycal MSU units of kabalites don't care about morale either. You definitely don't want to charge the archon in turn 1 and he hits on 2s anyway. Tipycal MSU units of kabalites don't care about morale either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think it depends on the base cost of the model. 6+++ or even a 6++ on a horde unit is amazing because that's saving a ton of models over the course of a game assuming generally average rolling. If your rolling hot it can skew the game. On a marine model it's ok, might save one guy in the squad.

This is bad math. A 6+++ is of equal value on all models (other than the overkill problem) because its value is a percentage of the model cost. A horde unit will save more models, but each model is of less value than the single elite model that it saves.

Basically this is true. But one saved infantry model maybe doesn't change anything. Avoiding the degrading to a vehicle thanks to a succesful 6+++ can be huge. That 6+++ can have a different impact even if the average says that is equal on all the models.

Archons are painfully useless in the new Codex. They can't shoot, they can sort of fight, they're not durable, they don't fit in our boats and their Aura doesn't work in conjunction with our main builds - which is dudes in boats.

The primary build for a Black Heart Detachment is the WritRav Battery. That being a single Archon with the Black Heart Relic (6" re-roll wounds of 1) and 3 Ravagers.

The Archon runs around, trying to keep up with the boats and ranting about how great Vect is.