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My personal tactica is ‘build stuff that looks cool and make it come together into something viable, if not now then after an FAQ police change or flex on the shelf til a new Codex’. 3pts off all my pointy finger power fist champions - most of whom have a combi-weapon that’s also been discounted - suits me fine. I mostly take them in chosen, Zerks, and noise Marines, so they usually find themselves liable to getting into some sort of pagga, and ability to break a dreadnought’s jaw is nice to have. Not efficient, but an army doesn’t have to minimax everything to be effective - if a 210pt unit successfully stops a 140pt unit from executing a winning manoeuvre, that’s fine by me. And if my dudes have to do a suicide attack to fulfil their purpose, and their champion survives the counter-strike long enough to kill more than 9pts of models, the fist’s kinda paid for itself.

If anything, I’m looking at my lightning claw champs and thinking that +1pt & -1ws for +4str & D3 damage is a very tempting payoff. I dunno, I’d maybe value LCs at 7/11...?

 First Among Gators wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.

That still doesn't justify the inefficiency though. Your looking at averaging 1 hit, how is that clearing anything that comes close? A power fist on a 5 man unit like you listed does one thing really well, it tricks you into using the unit for the wrong task and gets your squad killed. Your better off taking a chain ax and combi bolter on sarge and a flamer in the squad if your worried about small light objective stealing units. Anything justifying a power fist will end badly for your unit either way, so equip the squad with the right tool for their job.

Now, if you lack the models for other options and this is what you currently have, then fine, but it's objectively worse then other takes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
My personal tactica is ‘build stuff that looks cool and make it come together into something viable, if not now then after an FAQ police change or flex on the shelf til a new Codex’. 3pts off all my pointy finger power fist champions - most of whom have a combi-weapon that’s also been discounted - suits me fine. I mostly take them in chosen, Zerks, and noise Marines, so they usually find themselves liable to getting into some sort of pagga, and ability to break a dreadnought’s jaw is nice to have. Not efficient, but an army doesn’t have to minimax everything to be effective - if a 210pt unit successfully stops a 140pt unit from executing a winning manoeuvre, that’s fine by me. And if my dudes have to do a suicide attack to fulfil their purpose, and their champion survives the counter-strike long enough to kill more than 9pts of models, the fist’s kinda paid for itself.

If anything, I’m looking at my lightning claw champs and thinking that +1pt & -1ws for +4str & D3 damage is a very tempting payoff. I dunno, I’d maybe value LCs at 7/11...?

The claw is still better IMHO, at least on none berserker champs. Your much more likely to inflict kills on targets you want to be in with. Anything that requires s8 and d3 damage is not where a regular sarge wants to be. I'd rather take a power sword even, you guys also have to consider your losing DttFE on that fist.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 First Among Gators wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.

That still doesn't justify for the inefficiency though. Your looking at averaging 1 hit, how is that clearing anything that comes close? A power fist on a 5 man unit like you listed does one thing really well, it tricks you into using the unit for the wrong task and gets your squad killed. Your better off taking a chain ax and combi bolter on sarge and a flamer in the squad if your worried about small light objective stealing units. Anything justifying a power fist will end badly for your unit either way, so equip the squad with the right tool for their job.

Now, if you lack the models for other options and this is what you currently have, then fine, but it's objectively worse then other takes.

But it is actually a justification the inefficiency, it acknowledges it and addresses it. Something might not technically math out as worth it's points, but it may still have an actual impact in practice that isn't actually replicated by more efficient options, and at very little opportunity cost. it's not about that it hits a lot, it's about where that 1 hit a turn (2 a round) actually is, and it's on a unit that needs to hold it's ground against backfield contestors and deepstrikers, and may likely stand alone from the army. The flame won't even touch that same Lictor phasing in for example. I'm able to resist the temptation of seeing a fist on my unit and feeling pressured to run it into a fight it has no business being in. No flat damage is a B, but I'll let that play out how it goes. Holding an objective is worth the very few points. It's a tip I learned from the best Marine player I've seen an it may not pay off every game, but on the games it does it can be a major difference for very little sacrifice. I respect your opinion of course, I think I just disagree at the moment.

 First Among Gators wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.

You know what, I couldn't agree with you more. My comment was mostly addressing the idea of the choice to take one or the other, the autocannon will more often give results. You're 100% right that you can rationalise everything by points down to the wire, but a lot of things are situational game to game. I mean in one game you could have someone throw a low wound Rhino into one of your CSM units, you miss the autocannon in overwatch and then spend the assault phase trying to kick the last wound out of it. Boom, that's what your enemy wanted, that unit is out of commission next turn because they'll need to fall back to escape combat. Power fist champion steps up, rips a track off and removes the Rhino, and you're free to shoot normally next turn. So in that case, that power fist has been well worth it. Other games, you might be standing there thinking "why did I wear the giant foam #1 hand today) because the squad won't see anything even close to combat. So you know what, if you can squeeze them in and don't feel like the points would be better spent elsewhere, I say go for it. It's certainly a better buy for my money than a power axe would be, it's only a handful of points more and will potentially deter annoying transport units tying your squad up for a turn. More power to you!

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of power fists on srgs, i run them on my space wolves all the time. The issue becomes that 9 pts over 2 squads is enough to purchase another marine and a power sword. For that price the power fists dont make tactical sense here. And this is a tactics thread, where we are trying to find the best way to make things work. Best way to make powerfists work i think are choosen, give a squad of 10 3 power fists. This would give them a meaningful number of attacks (7) to make them a viable threat. Otherwise i would get a cheap charecter to sit with the marines, giving them reroll of 1, and use him as a deterrent.

2 attacks with a power sword and an extra body, or 4 attacks with a power fist? I'm not sure what you mean with that comparison but I don't really think that it comes out tactically in favor of the Sword.

Good idea with the Chosen. 7 PF attacks is like a mini Daemon Prince, I think that's definitely going to pack a punch

 First Among Gators wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 First Among Gators wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.

That still doesn't justify for the inefficiency though. Your looking at averaging 1 hit, how is that clearing anything that comes close? A power fist on a 5 man unit like you listed does one thing really well, it tricks you into using the unit for the wrong task and gets your squad killed. Your better off taking a chain ax and combi bolter on sarge and a flamer in the squad if your worried about small light objective stealing units. Anything justifying a power fist will end badly for your unit either way, so equip the squad with the right tool for their job.

Now, if you lack the models for other options and this is what you currently have, then fine, but it's objectively worse then other takes.

But it is actually a justification the inefficiency, it acknowledges it and addresses it. Something might not technically math out as worth it's points, but it may still have an actual impact in practice that isn't actually replicated by more efficient options, and at very little opportunity cost. it's not about that it hits a lot, it's about where that 1 hit a turn (2 a round) actually is, and it's on a unit that needs to hold it's ground against backfield contestors and deepstrikers, and may likely stand alone from the army. The flame won't even touch that same Lictor phasing in for example. I'm able to resist the temptation of seeing a fist on my unit and feeling pressured to run it into a fight it has no business being in. No flat damage is a B, but I'll let that play out how it goes. Holding an objective is worth the very few points. It's a tip I learned from the best Marine player I've seen an it may not pay off every game, but on the games it does it can be a major difference for very little sacrifice. I respect your opinion of course, I think I just disagree at the moment.

No idea what your arguing about then. this is a tactics thread. I have plenty of options on models in my collection that I like or look cool, doesn't mean I am going to come onto a tactics thread and start trying to convince folks that all those options are worth fielding in a competitive game. This entire forum is generally focused on competition.

Now, if you want to hash ideas on how to make power fists or the sagrents wielding them work best because it is something your set on thats fine and plenty of folks on here will help assist you there.

I said it earlier, it's fine to take sub-optimal gear or units because you like them or want to make them work, or they fit your play style. I think your running into a bit of a wall with me at least because your trying to justify why they are worth taking in any list. Power fists on a 5 man squad like you had listed just isn't a great idea. You have to consider your using those points before taking a special, heavy, combi or even extra guys on a unit you are using to camp objectives. Power fists need to earn their points back, if your dead set on them then you need a plan to ghet them into combat. Suggesting they are some sort of contingency plan is just a poor strategy overall.

Hope that helps explain my position on the matter at least.

On top of that, you were planning to camp said Marines anyway, so by that definition you need to equip them for that role.

Otherwise, it is 74 points of doing nothing but hold an objective. Instead, you could have 75 points that threatens W2 models or pick off wounds off a vehicle. A power fist won't help if the squad gets in melee, sorry.

What are you expecting your objective camping powerfist marine to be attacked by that he will survive the first round of combat and need to hit back with a powerfist. It's a very unlikely scenario. You're either getting mullered first round by something tough or hitting back against chaff where more attacks are more useful. If your opponent is stupid enough to charge you with a rhino or something, you keep control of the objective and now he can't shoot you in combat so you're better off being tied up.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 First Among Gators wrote:

But it is actually a justification the inefficiency, it acknowledges it and addresses it. Something might not technically math out as worth it's points, but it may still have an actual impact in practice that isn't actually replicated by more efficient options, and at very little opportunity cost. it's not about that it hits a lot, it's about where that 1 hit a turn (2 a round) actually is, and it's on a unit that needs to hold it's ground against backfield contestors and deepstrikers, and may likely stand alone from the army. The flame won't even touch that same Lictor phasing in for example. I'm able to resist the temptation of seeing a fist on my unit and feeling pressured to run it into a fight it has no business being in. No flat damage is a B, but I'll let that play out how it goes. Holding an objective is worth the very few points. It's a tip I learned from the best Marine player I've seen an it may not pay off every game, but on the games it does it can be a major difference for very little sacrifice. I respect your opinion of course, I think I just disagree at the moment.

No idea what your arguing about then. this is a tactics thread. I have plenty of options on models in my collection that I like or look cool, doesn't mean I am going to come onto a tactics thread and start trying to convince folks that all those options are worth fielding in a competitive game. This entire forum is generally focused on competition.

No idea what you read, but it's not what I said. Nothing about my post said that the decision isn't focused on being competitive. I'm saying that the game is deeper than a simple math equation.

I'll try explain again. Having the stiff view that you shouldn't take an upgrade on a models because it isn't the most efficient use of the points, is imo flawed logic. Otherwise we shouldn't take melee upgrades on anything other than Chaos Lords since they get the most efficiency out of those 9 points by extension of the logic. Yeah, Power Fists on CSM Champs isn't the most efficient possible use of the points from a pure maths standpoint and nothing else, but it also doesn't need to be for it to be a good choice, because the utility it provides isn't replicated by spending the points on a more efficient model. And for a total of 18 points between two instances, which also translates to very little lost opportunity cost, that's not even a min size unit of anything, all those points would end up doing otherwise is just being 2 Cultists and a single Tzaangor, and they are already thick enough to do their job without a single model making a relevant difference.

Except Power Fists are flat out bad as an upgrade for them. That's not even up for debate. It's 2 attacks hitting on a 4+. The only Sergeant that makes any use of it will either 3 or more attacks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Power Fists are flat out bad as an upgrade for them. That's not even up for debate. It's 2 attacks hitting on a 4+. The only Sergeant that makes any use of it will either 3 or more attacks.

Except it is up for debate, and I disagree that the difference between 2 attacks and 3 attacks turns them from useful to "completely not up for discussion". That 1 extra attack on a Chosen on the other side of the board doesn't do anything for the 10 marines at the back of it. This really isn't that big of a deal.

 Raichase wrote:

You know what, I couldn't agree with you more. My comment was mostly addressing the idea of the choice to take one or the other, the autocannon will more often give results. You're 100% right that you can rationalise everything by points down to the wire, but a lot of things are situational game to game. I mean in one game you could have someone throw a low wound Rhino into one of your CSM units, you miss the autocannon in overwatch and then spend the assault phase trying to kick the last wound out of it. Boom, that's what your enemy wanted, that unit is out of commission next turn because they'll need to fall back to escape combat. Power fist champion steps up, rips a track off and removes the Rhino, and you're free to shoot normally next turn. So in that case, that power fist has been well worth it. Other games, you might be standing there thinking "why did I wear the giant foam #1 hand today) because the squad won't see anything even close to combat. So you know what, if you can squeeze them in and don't feel like the points would be better spent elsewhere, I say go for it. It's certainly a better buy for my money than a power axe would be, it's only a handful of points more and will potentially deter annoying transport units tying your squad up for a turn. More power to you!

Thanks! This is basically exactly what I'm saying.

If we were rationalizing points down to the wire, we wouldn't be playing chaos space marines

Nature's Minister wrote:
If we were rationalizing points down to the wire, we wouldn't be playing chaos space marines

To be fair there are 3 reasons i play chaos competitively.

1. Kitbashing. Nothing says personality like chaos.
2. Potential. I feel chaos has a ton of untapped potential that never sees the light of day in competitive play.
3. Unexpected. Now days no one expects a complete, competitive chaos list, so when you show up with one you can really throw your local meta into a loop, which could hopefully work its way up to serious level tournament fuckery.

Having said that things like power fists on 5 or 6 man squads isnt a bad meta messser idea. If you play it right, vs the right opponent it will work fine. But in a straight up fight, its just not a valid, "tactical" option. Sometimes thats all you need to throw a curveball at the opponent. Most times its a waste of points. But there have been enough times in 8th edition history that the fact I took a power fist in a small squad was enough to help beat a rogue hive tyrant or whatever.

I am not saying its a good idea. I am saying sometimes being the meta breaker can win you games.

40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

What non-math reason is there for Power Fists? They're not scary on a 2 attack model, anything charging the squad will likely make sure to kill everyone and therefore it would've been wasted points, and the squad will just sit there not doing anything.

An Autocannon is a better mathematical choice AND strategic choice.

Azuza001 wrote:
To be fair there are 3 reasons i play chaos competitively.

1. Kitbashing. Nothing says personality like chaos.
2. Potential. I feel chaos has a ton of untapped potential that never sees the light of day in competitive play.
3. Unexpected. Now days no one expects a complete, competitive chaos list, so when you show up with one you can really throw your local meta into a loop, which could hopefully work its way up to serious level tournament fuckery.

Chaos, or chaos space marines? Cuz everyone expects the former, but I am not sure the latter really exists anymore.

I mean, I love my iron warriors, but if I had to win a game, I wouldn't play them. If the dude wants to take a power fist over an autocannon in a tournament setting, it wouldn't make a difference cuz he's gonna get eaten by a guard and knight list or whatever anyway. If he wants to take it in a friendly game, efficiency doesn't really matter. In a narrative game, maybe that sergeant has a cool reason for having it

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

What non-math reason is there for Power Fists? They're not scary on a 2 attack model, anything charging the squad will likely make sure to kill everyone and therefore it would've been wasted points, and the squad will just sit there not doing anything.

An Autocannon is a better mathematical choice AND strategic choice.

feel free to read the thread and see why I didn't agree, otherwise we're just going around in circles. I think both sides have said their piece constructively now and on such a minor issue, I think it's time to move ahead.

 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

Your not making valid arguments your just arguing in platitudes. As I said, if you like the fists that bad why the need to justify it to everyone else in a tactics thread?

The entire focus of this thread is hashing out the best ways to make the army work. Your welcome to add parameters though. So if you are dead set on making fists work on sarge that's fine, the discussion moves along those boundaries, but that's not what you are doing at all. Your trying to convince us that it has hidden tactical value we all are looking past. OK, I am open now actually provide data beyond your gut inclination.

I am all for thinking outside the box btw, I also like using under represented options and models, just search my history lol. But you haven't put forth any real ideas. By all means change my mind, but your going to have to explain specifically how your making it work and why it isn't just for flair. As others have pointed out already, an autocanon is much easier to use and works VS everything that fist does and more, it also synergizes with the role of that unit better. So explain why I should take a power fist rather then an autocanon when I have 10pts to spend on my unit? And in case you nit pick over the 1pt, even with exactly 9 pts and not a single point more to spend, you would still need to convince me why it's better then a flamer on the squad and a combi bolter on sarge which is the exact same price.

A power fist can be a useful item, but far less useful in the hands of unit A as would be in the hands of unit B. Case and point is the berserker champ, he gets 6 bites at the apple and +2 to his strength for that same 9pts. Or even a chaos lord, 5 swings at higher WS. This is what folks are trying to explain to you. You are applying a fine piece of kit to the worst model in the army that has access to it. Even biker or raptor sarges make more sense. It is also puzzling that you are forfeiting the ranged gear both in the squad and champ upgrades to take it.

 First Among Gators wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

What non-math reason is there for Power Fists? They're not scary on a 2 attack model, anything charging the squad will likely make sure to kill everyone and therefore it would've been wasted points, and the squad will just sit there not doing anything.

An Autocannon is a better mathematical choice AND strategic choice.

feel free to read the thread and see why I didn't agree, otherwise we're just going around in circles. I think both sides have said their piece constructively now and on such a minor issue, I think it's time to move ahead.

It isn't a minor issue, because it's 9 points of nothing basically. You either need to make the squad more focused for moving forward to melee (in which case you want the CCW loadout) or if you really do want to them to be on an objective you need them to be more dangerous for shooting. Camping with a Power Fist is mathematically bad AND strategically bad.

There's no defense, sorry.

I hate how everything on dakka descends into an argument but I'm sorry I can't see your logic here. Please describe a scenario where you might end up swinging that powerfist at something worthwhile and the 2pts of damage you could take off it will make any difference to the outcome of the battle.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

Your not making valid arguments your just arguing in platitudes. As I said, if you like the fists that bad why the need to justify it to everyone else in a tactics thread?

So because more people disagree than agree with me, that means I'm wrong? You shouldn't accuse others of fallacious arguments with that sort of stance. You're welcome to disagree, but you can drop this absurd narrative that I'm trying to force feed you some tactic. I didn't even expect it to get questioned, but since it has I've explained my reasoning.

 Red Corsair wrote:

The entire focus of this thread is hashing out the best ways to make the army work. Your welcome to add parameters though. So if you are dead set on making fists work on sarge that's fine, the discussion moves along those boundaries, but that's not what you are doing at all. Your trying to convince us that it has hidden tactical value we all are looking past. OK, I am open now actually provide data beyond your gut inclination.

That's not what I'm doing at all. Three times now I've clarified for you that I'm saying that my stance is that hey I feel this is a sound tactic so I'm going to go ahead and use it, not that this is a subpar tactic that I'm trying to find a use for and convince you of. At this point I'm inclined to believe you are either aware of this and refuse to acknowledge it, or aren't even reading through my posts, but either way let's drop this strawman. I too feel yours to be the less competitive, blinkered way of thinking that a lot of mid level players fall into, that if something doesn't math out slightly higher than a completely different option then it cannot possibly be competitive for the role!, but I'm not going to keep shouting you down about your opinions not being competitive and I recognise that we two people can disagree on something, so please show me the same courtesy.

 Red Corsair wrote:
As others have pointed out already, an autocanon is much easier to use and works VS everything that fist does and more, it also synergizes with the role of that unit better.

And as I've pointed out, the squad can also have an Autocannon (and it will).

 Red Corsair wrote:
you would still need to convince me why it's better then a flamer on the squad and a combi bolter on sarge which is the exact same price.

I've given my counter to this point and you ignored it, not sure how else to go forward from there. I'm not even remotely concerned if you're convinced or not, your view on the game seems a little too rigid to be flexed into this and I'm totally ok with that. We all play this game in a different way, yours is a little more rigid, mine is a little more fluid. I've received your advice loud and clear! Your logic hasn't convinced me and I disagree with your stance, but thanks for your contribution, let's move forward!

 Red Corsair wrote:
A power fist can be a useful item, but far less useful in the hands of unit A as would be in the hands of unit B. Case and point is the berserker champ, he gets 6 bites at the apple and +2 to his strength for that same 9pts.

Berzerkers cannot take Autocannons. Berzerkers are a glass cannon unit that want to be in CC, not sit on an objective. You would be paying so many points to hold ground on a backfield objective. A single powerfist costs 9 points, and helps push off anything that makes it into CC with you and gives you the teeth to win trades vs other min size troops in ob sec battles, or to help push off bulkier things like a vehicle or a Captain, without costing anywhere near enough to drastically change the role of the unit away from firmly holding objectives. Again, I've seen it used to great effect by the best Marine player I know, a guy who manages to travel and compete throughout every edition with Imperial Fists. I've felt it work vs me personally, smashing out Rippers quickly enough to retake the objective by a full turn just by putting a single PF in the squad. Remember you're swinging twice over a battle round before scores come through in ITC. It's often 4 attacks for simply 9 points. Again, I've said if it doesn't work I'll adjust, but as it stands I'm just going to hold it in there, so I think this particular issue of power fists is thoroughly hashed out as much as it can be now.

You want to stop rippers from taking your objective off you you're honestly better spending the points on a combi flamer. You'll do more damage in overwatch than you'll probably do with the fist


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I was liking chosen since the points drop on them and combi weapons. But then I realised loyalist veterans can take advantage of the 2pt storm shield which just makes them so much stronger a base to invest special weapons on. Space marines in general are not in a good place but it got me thinking we really got shafted here. Our terminators are more expensive, we're getting excited by price of helbrutes but they got the exact same drop. And for 20pts they can make it 2+ bs/was T8 and a FNP. I'd pay 20pts for an always on prescience on a dakka brute alone.
It's got me thinking that we need to focus on stuff the loyalist don't have as it's our niche. So I'm thinking autocannons are more appealing, demon engines, and variants only we have access to like butcher cannon contemptors or all shooting Knights.

I have always felt thats how chaos needs to work, focus on what we do differently than loyalists.

Cultists
Squads of 20
Demon engines
Demons in general
Hellbrutes (they do move further) in cc role
Obliterators
Specialist troops (beserkers / noise marines / ect....)

We shouldnt try to focus on doing the same things they can, we need to do what they cant.

Yep brutes are quicker than dreads but I think if you want your brute in combat you're better off with a maulerfiend

Worth remembering that World Eaters brutes get +1S&A, Alpha Legion survive the journey more often, and Renegades ones can charge after advances. (Slaanesh Maulerfiends can, of course, do the latter with daemon support, which can also pip them up to S8.) Definitely want a Contemptor for my WE. You know I’ll Warptime it the minute an opportunity arises for it to chin a Knight.

Of course, the WE Trait can be duplicated (in fact, improved) on any HA unit by Diabolic Strength. Hell, I won a game where I ran a table length gauntlet with a Slaanesh daemon engines list against Space Wolves with Lascannons galore by casting it and Warptime on a Heldrake so it could eat Njal Stormcaller.

Oh that's true, brutes do benefit from legion traits. As a black legion player I always overlook that as our trait is so... Meh.
I love heldrakes, I really want one to do something awesome but I think the best I've ever got out of one is to shut down a little shooting and absorb some anti tank until it dies. :(

I have had some sucsess with my helldrake, i always find it depends on what your playing against though. Example: in one tournament i played first game vs tyranids the helldrake wrecked face. Killed a trygon, then flew across the table and mulched on some hive guard pounding on me from a distance. Did excellent. Next game vs marines I killed 5 scouts then died to a quad las pred....

Them are the breaks lol.

What we do better than loyalists:

Smite spam / general psychic dominance
Morale immunity / tough board coverage
Cheap bombs that hit above their weight class
Daemon princes
Speed

Luckily that is enough to put a hurt on most armies you face