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I am returning to 40k after a while and I was looking for a SM chapter to start a new primaris detachment when I read the Deathwatch rules.

There's any kind of justification to have the same unit (Intercessors, for example) that the rest of SM chapters with a very usefull ability (Special Issue Ammunition) for free?

I like the Deathwatch, but maybe I will feel dirty when I play with my friend that is also returning to the game and I have this rule for free because I have painted my primaris black...

Primaris marines have to pay mor for their guns actually. They’re a couple points more expensiv in deathwatch

stratigo wrote:
Primaris marines have to pay mor for their guns actually. They’re a couple points more expensiv in deathwatch

Oh, I see

I was looking CA for points costs and there the bolt rifle is not listed so I assumed it was free like in the SM codex.

This has a little more sense (I still believe the ability should cost more than 1 point, but at least it costs something). Thank you

The cost difference between vanilla and DW Intercessors should definitely be greater. It is completely crazy how much more punch the DW ones pack for a negligible cost. (And they still are not considered to be particularly strong unit...)

For weapons like Storm Bolters SIA costs an extra 2 points, so it is factored into the weapon type. I think DW are probably priced about correctly, and are actually a good example of what Marines could be - not necessarily fantastic defensively (a DW Primaris is just as vulnerable as a regular one) but extremely deadly thanks to their ammo, You actually have to worry about a unit of Intercessors if you're playing against DW, which isn't often the case if they're non-DW. I'd prefer to see GW make some changes to other SM armies to allow them to be similarly deadly.

Yeah DW get the offensive part right, but are still hurting in the defense department in regards to DW. The normal veterans having 2 point stormshields and the ability to add terminators however are excellent.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yeah DW get the offensive part right, but are still hurting in the defense department in regards to DW. The normal veterans having 2 point stormshields and the ability to add terminators however are excellent.

I tried out Deathwatch optimized for a post-CA World with mixed Terminator/Storm Shield squads the other day, and they felt.....ooookay, even against some pretty nasty units (my opponent had a huge blob of plasma battle servitors, two of the 18-shot dakkabots, and a knight with the Eternal Fury relic).

That's some pretty severe anti-marine oriented firepower and with three squads of 10 I lost basically a squad each turn, and that's with my own offensive rolls going extremely poorly trying to bring down some of that stuff (65% chance to charge and kill the knight? nope. 6 frag cannon wounds on robots? 6 5++ saves. )

Deathwatch post-CA IMO is the closest 8th has come to marines that feel right offensively, and Tsons and Death Guard are the closest it's come to marines feeling right defensively. I'm mostly OK with my marines getting blown away by tank ordnance, but when little piddly lasgun fire comes at them they should get a solid defensive spike compared to chaff infantry.

zinch wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Primaris marines have to pay mor for their guns actually. They’re a couple points more expensiv in deathwatch

Oh, I see

I was looking CA for points costs and there the bolt rifle is not listed so I assumed it was free like in the SM codex.

This has a little more sense (I still believe the ability should cost more than 1 point, but at least it costs something). Thank you

I'm sure you can talk your opponent into letting you spend more pts than required for your ammo.

Deathwatch don't get to be buffed by Rowboat, so they need to be cheaper to compensate. *GW logic*

Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

 godardc wrote:
Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

 Crimson wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

Mission Tactics is just a limited, board wide LT buff in an army that would absolutely love to save the HQ tax points by taking an LT...but can't.

Lemondish wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

Mission Tactics is just a limited, board wide LT buff in an army that would absolutely love to save the HQ tax points by taking an LT...but can't.

Yeah, I've seen DW HQ are a little lackluster, but that doesn't mean that Mission Tactics is still better than some Chapter Tactics, so Lemondish point is still valid IMO.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yeah DW get the offensive part right, but are still hurting in the defense department in regards to DW. The normal veterans having 2 point stormshields and the ability to add terminators however are excellent.

I tried out Deathwatch optimized for a post-CA World with mixed Terminator/Storm Shield squads the other day, and they felt.....ooookay, even against some pretty nasty units (my opponent had a huge blob of plasma battle servitors, two of the 18-shot dakkabots, and a knight with the Eternal Fury relic).

That's some pretty severe anti-marine oriented firepower and with three squads of 10 I lost basically a squad each turn, and that's with my own offensive rolls going extremely poorly trying to bring down some of that stuff (65% chance to charge and kill the knight? nope. 6 frag cannon wounds on robots? 6 5++ saves. )

Deathwatch post-CA IMO is the closest 8th has come to marines that feel right offensively, and Tsons and Death Guard are the closest it's come to marines feeling right defensively. I'm mostly OK with my marines getting blown away by tank ordnance, but when little piddly lasgun fire comes at them they should get a solid defensive spike compared to chaff infantry.

I have to ask....
Did you spend the CP to DS your 3 units in and torch those bots ? 120 rr1s -1 ap Mission tactic shots should have wiped them out in 1 turn.

 Crimson wrote:

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

Lets be clear about this, DW Chapter Tactic is a reroll of 1s to wound against a specific unit type, chosen before the game starts. That cannot be changed during the game without expending CP. Mission Tactics has its uses but you're wildly overstating its efficacy.

SIA makes Deathwatch some of the best chaff killers in the game. I'm not contesting that. In return their capacity to do anything meaningful against armored units is completely neutered.

It's a pretty crippling weakness when the priority targets on a board are Knights, Tank Commanders, and Ravagers.

If you're playing pure Primaris, they have the exact same tank killing capability... And of course nothing is stopping you allying some heavy firepower to your DW. The point is that SIA makes the DW Intercessors completely outclass the vanilla ones in ridiculous degree.

 Crimson wrote:
If you're playing pure Primaris, they have the exact same tank killing capability...

Nobody plays Primaris to kill tanks. Try again.

 Crimson wrote:
And of course nothing is stopping you allying some heavy firepower to your DW

You mean besides the DW Codex that actively requires a player to use Forge World or allied units to have any kind of meaningful tank busting efficacy?

 zedsdead wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yeah DW get the offensive part right, but are still hurting in the defense department in regards to DW. The normal veterans having 2 point stormshields and the ability to add terminators however are excellent.

I tried out Deathwatch optimized for a post-CA World with mixed Terminator/Storm Shield squads the other day, and they felt.....ooookay, even against some pretty nasty units (my opponent had a huge blob of plasma battle servitors, two of the 18-shot dakkabots, and a knight with the Eternal Fury relic).

That's some pretty severe anti-marine oriented firepower and with three squads of 10 I lost basically a squad each turn, and that's with my own offensive rolls going extremely poorly trying to bring down some of that stuff (65% chance to charge and kill the knight? nope. 6 frag cannon wounds on robots? 6 5++ saves. )

Deathwatch post-CA IMO is the closest 8th has come to marines that feel right offensively, and Tsons and Death Guard are the closest it's come to marines feeling right defensively. I'm mostly OK with my marines getting blown away by tank ordnance, but when little piddly lasgun fire comes at them they should get a solid defensive spike compared to chaff infantry.

I have to ask....
Did you spend the CP to DS your 3 units in and torch those bots ? 120 rr1s -1 ap Mission tactic shots should have wiped them out in 1 turn.

I did, but sadly dakka theoryhammer sometimes runs into the reality of the game. in order to project 120 rr1s -1AP mission tactic shots into the bots, I had to be able to get 30 bodies within 12" of them, which I could not do because my opponent had other models on the board. I ended up with 8 models in range of the bots, who then rolled quite poorly and I only killed 1 - 3 of the 8 models were the aforementioned frag cannons who didn't cause a single wound. The rest shot into plasma servitors and killed 4 of them, but then my opponent resurrected 1 with the new admech warlord trait.

Maybe by ally in anti tank, he is thinking about something like some IG and a castellan. A castellan can kill vehicles.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If you're playing pure Primaris, they have the exact same tank killing capability...

Nobody plays Primaris to kill tanks. Try again.

 Crimson wrote:
And of course nothing is stopping you allying some heavy firepower to your DW

You mean besides the DW Codex that actively requires a player to use Forge World or allied units to have any kind of meaningful tank busting efficacy?

Lascannon/Missile Launcher vendreads and combiplas veterans have pretty good anti tank points returns. The deathwatch codex "actively requires" you to have Forgeworld units far less than the standard marine codex, which can't grant their vendreads the 5++ they lack vs the quadlas contemptor with a relic on their captain.

Deathwatch don't have all the incredibly poor space marine anti tank choices, but they have the couple of good ones.

the_scotsman wrote:


Lascannon/Missile Launcher vendreads and combiplas veterans have pretty good anti tank points returns. The deathwatch codex "actively requires" you to have Forgeworld units far less than the standard marine codex, which can't grant their vendreads the 5++ they lack vs the quadlas contemptor with a relic on their captain.

QuadLas contemptors come with an innate 5++, and I'd much rather have the innate -1 that RG get, or the Rowboat hilarity aura than have to spend 89 points on an Aegis Captain who has to camp out in the backfield all day with my Vens, not to mention Techmarine backup.

the_scotsman wrote:


Deathwatch don't have all the incredibly poor space marine anti tank choices, but they have the couple of good ones.

Only two of which allow for S9 firepower. S8 is good enough for casual games, but you need the S9 to reliably crack TC and Knight equivalents.

Also good luck with Plasma against anything packing a negative modifier to hit.

Sterling191 wrote:

You mean besides the DW Codex that actively requires a player to use Forge World or allied units to have any kind of meaningful tank busting efficacy?

If you for some reason want vanilla tank killing units, you can ally them in. This is what was discussed in the balance thread; these sort of 'weaknesses' do not work. Optimally you take DW for your anti infantry needs and ally whatever antitank you may feel is necessary. In no competitive situation there is a reason to take vanilla Intercessors over DW ones; the latter are too cheap compared to the former.

 Crimson wrote:

If you for some reason want vanilla tank killing units, you can ally them in. This is what was discussed in the balance thread; these sort of 'weaknesses' do not work. Optimally you take DW for your anti infantry needs and ally whatever antitank you may feel is necessary. In no competitive situation there is a reason to take vanilla Intercessors over DW ones; the latter are too cheap compared to the former.

Thats some pretty epic goalpost moving right there.

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Lascannon/Missile Launcher vendreads and combiplas veterans have pretty good anti tank points returns. The deathwatch codex "actively requires" you to have Forgeworld units far less than the standard marine codex, which can't grant their vendreads the 5++ they lack vs the quadlas contemptor with a relic on their captain.

QuadLas contemptors come with an innate 5++, and I'd much rather have the innate -1 that RG get, or the Rowboat hilarity aura than have to spend 89 points on an Aegis Captain who has to camp out in the backfield all day with my Vens.

the_scotsman wrote:


Deathwatch don't have all the incredibly poor space marine anti tank choices, but they have the couple of good ones.

Only two of which allow for S9 firepower. S8 is good enough for casual games, but you need the S9 to reliably crack TC and Knight equivalents.

Also good luck with Plasma against anything packing a negative modifier to hit.

Better access to S9 than I get with my orks. Dreadnoughts, frag cannons, repulsors, razorbacks, I think you can even get lascannons on the plane (haven't seen the plane). What lascannon platform are you missing? want to pay tons of extra points on a predator for a laugh? You really want centurions? What?

Plasma seems to work fine for everything else in the meta. Stuff that gets -1 to hit inside of 12" seems to be a whole lot rarer than the alternative.

Deathwatch are no more required to take allies for anti-tank than any other imperium faction is "required" to do so. They (or everybody else) are not bad at it, the castellan and helverins are just better at it than everybody else.

With twin las ven dreads, frag cannons, and hellblasters mixed in with intercessors, I don't really see anti-tank being too bad at all.

Sterling191 wrote:

Thats some pretty epic goalpost moving right there.

No. This was my original point. SIA is too cheap. I didn't say DW as whole are OP, I was talking about SIA.

the_scotsman wrote:


Better access to S9 than I get with my orks.

Is there some goalpost moving contest here on Dakka today I missed a memo about?

the_scotsman wrote:


repulsors, razorbacks

Flying land raiders at 300 points and worse dreadnoughts, both without chapter tactics or any access to invuln saves are trash picks and you know it.

the_scotsman wrote:


I think you can even get lascannons on the plane (haven't seen the plane).

Oh yes, 230+ points for a BS4+ lascannon platform. That's such a game changer.

the_scotsman wrote:

Plasma seems to work fine for everything else in the meta. Stuff that gets -1 to hit inside of 12" seems to be a whole lot rarer than the alternative.

You've never actually played against Eldar or Drukhari have you?

the_scotsman wrote:


Deathwatch are no more required to take allies for anti-tank than any other imperium faction is "required" to do so.

They are if they want any chance of survival against a non-casual list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

No. This was my original point. SIA is too cheap. I didn't say DW as whole are OP, I was talking about SIA.

Then why the feth did you bring up anti-tank viability?

Sterling191 wrote:
Then why the feth did you bring up anti-tank viability?

I didn't. You did.

Lol. Orks are just the other army I've been playing recently. They have almost no S9 in the whole codex. They do fine. The other is Thousand Sons/Daemons, who have basically the same S9 options that Deathwatch do, plus Predators, which are crap. The question remains here: What are you missing out on as Deathwatch that is S9 and better than what deathwatch get with regular Marines, or any other kind of marine? Are you looking for Centurions? Devastators, those terrors of the competitive meta?

I play against Drukhari all the time, Eldar more rarely (because everyone just plays their eldar models as ynnari). The only time I've legitimately run across a situation where I couldn't target something that wasn't -1 to hit was recently with my orks when I faced an eldar airwing with a drukhari venomspam list, and that turned out pretty hilariously with what orks can do.

You still have not explained how deathwatch is somehow MORE required to take allies for antitank than any other imperial faction. They have the same access to anti tank natively that any space marine faction does, and in many instances the deathwatch option is better. Deathwatch, Admech, Sisters, guard, space marines, blood angels, and eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevery other imperial faction chooses to take allies for their anti tank not because their anti-tank options are particularly bad, but because IK anti-tank is particularly broken.

My favorite thing is Deathwatch players complaining about lack of access to Strength 9 platforms while the Sororitas beta codex has literally zero and that's not really a problem for them.