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Hi all, a quick question about taking weapons on a deathwatch terminator. I suspect the answer is unclear.... I have asked the GW facebook page and they said to send it to the FAQ team.

So I have a deathwatch terminator model that is armed with a Thunderhammer, a Stormshield and a Cyclone missile launcher.

On the datasheet the model starts with a stormbolter and powerfist.
It can swap its stormbolter for a cyclone missile launcher and a stormbolter.
It can swap its stormbolter and powerfist for a thunderhammer and stormshield.

To me this seems fine and doesn't break any rules but someone pointed out to me the other day that they didn't think this model was legal.
He said that you can't swap a weapon that you have previously swapped, he couldn't point to this rule anywhere.

I've been playing along time and the rules have never been clear on the order and timing of making weapon upgrades, it was an issue in previous editions as well with this very model, in 7th edition this combination was specifically allowed by an FAQ question but they didn't clarify if it was an exception or how the rules were meant to be, but old FAQs aren't of any relevance now.

So can anyone point me to an actual rule that disallows this weapon combination?

Thanks for the help.

Edit: See the later post, I made an oopsie poopsie.

You definitely can't do this.

I know that "real world examples" are frowned on but I will use one for grammar reasons.

Let's say you have a diamond.

I say to you
"You can swap your diamond for my gold bar"
and
"You can swap your diamond for my bag of rubies"

You would have no expectation that you can walk away with both the gold bar and the rubies.

The model only has 1 storm bolter, so it only has 1 option to swap it. Once it's swapped, you cannot then perform another swap as it no longer has a storm bolter to swap.

I always get confused when this question gets asked (I blame being an old grumpy fart) and EVERY SINGLE TIME I have to come back to correct myself. Like, without fail it's always this question, I need to get a post-it note or something. Happened with the Helbrute loadout too.

The loadout is legal, because they are two different wargear options. The FAQ prohibits taking the SAME wargear option more than once, not different ones. You use one option to swap the Storm Bolter for Cyclone and Storm Bolter, then use a DIFFERENT option to swap the Storm Bolter and Power Fist for a different option.

So yeah, my mistake, that loadout is legal and the FAQ is only tangentially related.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silentz wrote:
You definitely can't do this.

I know that "real world examples" are frowned on but I will use one for grammar reasons.

Let's say you have a diamond.

I say to you
"You can swap your diamond for my gold bar"
and
"You can swap your diamond for my bag of rubies"

You would have no expectation that you can walk away with both the gold bar and the rubies.

The model only has 1 storm bolter, so it only has 1 option to swap it. Once it's swapped, you cannot then perform another swap as it no longer has a storm bolter to swap.

I am afraid you can do this because you're not swapping a diamond for a gold bar, you're swapping a diamond for a gold bar and a diamond. If you then have the option to swap your diamond and ruby (which you had beforehand) for two sapphires, you can do so. What the FAQ prohibits is only swapping your diamond for a gold bar and diamond, then swapping that diamond again for a gold bar and diamond, thus getting infinite gold bars.

And to nip in the bud the argument that "Cyclone Missile Launcher & Storm Bolter" is all one entry, please point out where the weapon profile for "Cyclone Missile Launcher & Storm Bolter" is in the codex.

Thanks BaconCatBug thats how I read it as well.

As I said in the opening post this has always been an issue throughout history and is just a quirk of how they write unit entries and options, whether people think it should be allowed isn't the issue its whether the rules allow it which I think they do.

I'm not swapping the same item twice I'm swapping an item for an exact copy of the item and an additional item, then swapping the copy of the item for a different item. They could have made it easier if they just listed that when you take a cyclone you don't have to swap you stormbolter but it would have required an extra line of text which they don't have room for in the crowded deathwatch datasheet.

I dont think you can do this

DW FAQ:

Q: Can a Watch Captain replace his chainsword and mastercrafted boltgun with a storm bolter and another chainsword, and then replace his "new" chainsword with a relic blade ?
A: No.

Also the Storm bolter is listed in 2 varaints for the Terminator. Terminator combi weapon " stormbolter" and Terminator Heavy Weapons: "Cyclone missle Launcher & Storm Bolter".

The THW selection appears to be a single weapon selection and not one that can be seperated.

I don’t see any permission given anywhere to swap, then swap part of that option. That’s not how list building works. I mean, I’d have no issue with you running said model, but it doesn’t read as 8th-legal to me if you’re concerned for Matched Play etc.

(To ‘nip in the bud’ the diversionary attempt by BCB, “Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter” is presented as one weapons option in the wargear list. Profiles for use in-game are utterly irrelevant when list building. It can absolutely be one option when list building yet two weapons in-game. That’s that one nixed, I feel.)

Been having the same discussion on the GW facebook page and whilst there is no actual answer (as GW has never written any rules governing how you go about equipping units) someone answered in a pretty logical manner using various current FAQs to explain their logic:

So, found those three :
From the Stepping into a New Edition FAQ :
" Q: Can a model take the same wargear option more than once? For example, can a Space Marine Terminator replace his storm bolter with a cyclone missile launcher and another storm bolter, and then replace its ‘new’ storm bolter with a heavy flamer?
A: No."
Which pretty consicely says you can't take the same option more than once on a single model...

From the DeathWatch FAQ :
"Q: Can a Watch Captain replace his chainsword and master-crafted boltgun with a storm bolter and another chainsword, and then replace his ‘new’ chainsword with a relic blade?
A: No."
Which, at first, would says you can't further replace a weapon you got from a previous exchange, but there's more to it.

The scenario pointed out in the question is here to exchange a weapon got through a "later" option with one you could only get with the first option.
Which would then just be a confirmation that wargear option lists are to be go through in a sequential order, explanation which also make sense with this last ruling

From the Chaos Space Marines FAQ :
"Page 138 – Helbrute, Wargear Options
Change the third bullet point to read:
‘• This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a Helbrute hammer or power scourge.’ "
The Helbrute being initially equiped with a single Helbrute Fist, and getting it's second one with the first option in the list, he could not exchange "EACH" of them if he wasn't allowed to replace it at all.

In summary : Yes, as long as you go through the options in the order they're listed, you can replace a weapon you got from a previous exchange.

I've emailed the FAQ team but the above logic seems pretty good and it means I can still use my model :-)

You’re doing exactly what that first FAQ says you can’t do, IMHO.

So it's once again GW issuing contradictory FAQs. Splendid!

The issue stems from GW FAQing specific instances without letting us know what the general rules/guidelines they are following for these ruling are.

The post I quoted breaks down the three FAQs that have been issued regarding equipment swapping and analyses what they mean - non are the actual situation that is being discussed so we can only use them as guidelines.

The first example shows that you cannot use the same bullet point option more than once - could I swap a SB for a Cyclone + SB and then swap the new SB for another Cyclone + SB and so on.... No you can't use the same equipment option more than once. In the case of the model in question the option to swap the SB for a TH/SS is a different equipment option.

The second and third examples are there to show that the order the options appear is important. The example about swapping a chainsword seems to be the same as that in question until you realise that the option to get the second chainsword appears after the option to swap it out, the helbrute example shows that if you swap something for something else first it can then be swapped out if that swap is further down the list of options.

These would seem to show that the equipment list are supposed to be worked through from top to bottom which makes sense but it would be nice if GW would just say that.

I'm happy that there is at least some rules support for me to continue to use my model, there certainly doesn't seem to be a solid rule against it and I don't think its particularly game breaking so I'll just have to wait and hope they FAQ it to make things clearer and discuss it with my opponents beforehand to avoid any issues.

 WisdomLS wrote:

From the Stepping into a New Edition FAQ :
" Q: Can a model take the same wargear option more than once? For example, can a Space Marine Terminator replace his storm bolter with a cyclone missile launcher and another storm bolter, and then replace its ‘new’ storm bolter with a heavy flamer?
A: No."
Which pretty consicely says you can't take the same option more than once on a single model...

From the DeathWatch FAQ :
"Q: Can a Watch Captain replace his chainsword and master-crafted boltgun with a storm bolter and another chainsword, and then replace his ‘new’ chainsword with a relic blade?
A: No."
Which, at first, would says you can't further replace a weapon you got from a previous exchange, but there's more to it.

The scenario pointed out in the question is here to exchange a weapon got through a "later" option with one you could only get with the first option.
Which would then just be a confirmation that wargear option lists are to be go through in a sequential order, explanation which also make sense with this last ruling

From the Chaos Space Marines FAQ :
"Page 138 – Helbrute, Wargear Options
Change the third bullet point to read:
‘• This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a Helbrute hammer or power scourge.’ "
The Helbrute being initially equiped with a single Helbrute Fist, and getting it's second one with the first option in the list, he could not exchange "EACH" of them if he wasn't allowed to replace it at all.

In summary : Yes, as long as you go through the options in the order they're listed, you can replace a weapon you got from a previous exchange.

I'm having trouble seeing how the cyclone launcher is any different than the first 2

FAQ 1: Storm Bolter -> Cyclone missile + Storm Bolter -> cyclone + flamer = no
Step 1 swapping storm bolter, Step 2 swapping storm bolter

FAQ 2: chainsword + boltgun -> Storm bolter + chainsword -> Storm bolter + relic blade = no
Step 1 swapping chainsword, Step 2 swapping chainsword

Yours: Storm bolter + power fist -> Cyclone missile + storm bolter + power fist -> Cyclone + thunderhammer + storm shield = no
Step 1 swapping storm bolter, Step 2 swapping storm bolter


As you can see in each of the faqs - in the 2nd swap, you cannot swap a weapon with the same name that you swapped in the first

The helbrute starts with 2 Helbrute fists normally, therefore you can swap 1 for 1 weapon and the other for another weapon. The swapping of each helbrute fist happens in the same swap.

The Helbrute does NOT start with two fists, though.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Helbrute does NOT start with two fists, though.

Indeed, and if anything the Helbrute proves you can get an item via a previous wargear option and then swap that new item via a second wargear option.

kaotkbliss wrote:


I'm having trouble seeing how the cyclone launcher is any different than the first 2

FAQ 1: Storm Bolter -> Cyclone missile + Storm Bolter -> cyclone + flamer = no
Step 1 swapping storm bolter, Step 2 swapping storm bolter

FAQ 2: chainsword + boltgun -> Storm bolter + chainsword -> Storm bolter + relic blade = no
Step 1 swapping chainsword, Step 2 swapping chainsword

Yours: Storm bolter + power fist -> Cyclone missile + storm bolter + power fist -> Cyclone + thunderhammer + storm shield = no
Step 1 swapping storm bolter, Step 2 swapping storm bolter


As you can see in each of the faqs - in the 2nd swap, you cannot swap a weapon with the same name that you swapped in the first

The helbrute starts with 2 Helbrute fists normally, therefore you can swap 1 for 1 weapon and the other for another weapon. The swapping of each helbrute fist happens in the same swap.

Whilst I agree that initially the first FAQ may look to be the same situation it isn't. The first line asked the question, "Can a model take the same wargear option more than once?" and then gives an example of using the option that terminators have to swap their stormbolter for a heavy weapon. One of those heavy weapons choices give the model back a stormbolter which without this FAQ it could then swap for another heavy weapon. This FAQ tells us that we cannot use the same wargear option on a datasheet multiple times.

Swapping the SB for a cyclone+SB is one option.
Swapping the SB for a TH/SS is a different option.

Again the second FAQ looks similar but with a key difference.
The captains option are listed as follows: - you may swap a chainsword for a relic blade.
- you may swap your chainsword+bolter for two items (one of which can be a chainsword)
The FAQ say you can't do this.

Only by looking at the third FAQ can we see the pattern which gives us idea of how they are working this.

A helbrute only starts with a single Fist.
Its first wargear option is to swap its multimelta for a second fist.
The FAQ adds the wording to confirm you can swap out both Fists for other items.

Combining these last two FAQs we can see the difference between them is this.
The captain can swap his chainsword and bolter for something and another chainsword but he cannot then swap that chainsword for a relic blade as that option is higher up the list and has already been passed over.
This is confirmed by the helbrute who is allowed to swap a weapon for a Fist and then swap out that fist for something else as the second swap option comes further down his list of options.

The option for swapping the SB for a TH/SS comes after the option for swapping the SB for a cyclone and a SB.

It makes sense that you would work through the list from left to right and top to bottom (thats how english reads).

This isn't spelt out in the FAQs but it certainly a reasonable way of interpreting them that makes sense.

It also matches up with the FAQ from 7th edition which allowed this weapon combination, whilst 7th edition rules hold no rules relevance they do show intent to allow the model.

I stand corrected on the helbrute part. I was just going by what was in this thread.

The other point still stand though. other weapons aside, what's important is that in swap 1 you swap a weapon for the same weapon, then in swap 2 you swap that weapon again.

While I think it's silly, (since if you drop 1 chainsword and pick up another, why couldn't you just drop that 2nd chainsword and pick up something else) I think it was a feeble attempt at closing the infinite weapon loophole instead of re-working the weapon swaps to begin with. but in all 3 of those cases (excluding the hellbrute) that is exactly what is happening and in the 2 cases brought to GW, they said "no".

Well I found another similar FAQ which shoots my "they work down the list in order" theory in the foot but does allow a very similar swap.

From the space wolf FAQ:
Q: If I replace a Wolf Guard Terminator’s storm bolter with a
cyclone missile launcher and storm bolter from the Terminator
Heavy Weapons list (as per the third bullet point), can I
subsequently replace the new storm bolter with an item from the
Combi-weapons or Terminator Melee Weapons list (as per
the second bullet point)?
A: Yes.

It would seem they follow no consisted formula or process with these rulings!

As there is nothing saying it isn't allowed and standard reading skill tells me it is I'm gonna keep using the model.

Haha brilliant - crack on then!

 WisdomLS wrote:
Well I found another similar FAQ which shoots my "they work down the list in order" theory in the foot but does allow a very similar swap.

From the space wolf FAQ:
Q: If I replace a Wolf Guard Terminator’s storm bolter with a
cyclone missile launcher and storm bolter from the Terminator
Heavy Weapons list (as per the third bullet point), can I
subsequently replace the new storm bolter with an item from the
Combi-weapons or Terminator Melee Weapons list (as per
the second bullet point)?
A: Yes.

It would seem they follow no consisted formula or process with these rulings!

As there is nothing saying it isn't allowed and standard reading skill tells me it is I'm gonna keep using the model.

Well then