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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Option 2: Lazy and annoying

Grey minis are a blight upon the hobby.

But what about grey painted modells?!?

Are you serious?

Deadly northern neighbour.

The term "deadly" makes no sense in this context.

i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

 Stormatious wrote:
Well im talking about painting to high standards.

Then why did you quote and reply to my comment about painting to a basic tabletop standard?

 Stormatious wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, let's not pretend that painting is difficult. 99.9% of people are capable of doing a clean base coat + wash, and maybe some drybrushed highlights. The vast majority of people with unpainted armies don't have any disability that would prevent them from painting, they're just lazy.

I cant believe you just said that... Its hard..... trying to learn how to do all these different techniques, applying perfect width edge highlights, learning how to simply use the brush and paint strokes properly.... dude what are you talking about

It's not so much lazy, lazy is the wrong terminology entirey. I agree with Peri that most can learn to do painting of models; however there ARE barriers including, and not limited too;

1) Personal confidence - as I noted above many think of art as a "gifted" student thing and thus they tend to assume that as they were not gifted at school in the subject; that they are incapable of learning. That many art departments are poorly setup to actually teach the foundations and mechanics of how to draw and paint does a lot to reinforce this idea.

2) Guided instruction - both theory and practical. Practice on its own is near useless if there is no direction involved. Newbies need direction from theory and in person in order to advance their artistic talent. This way they can be shown methods; educated on the subject and generally aided through the process.

3) Self learning skills. Self learning is a skill and not everyone has learned it. Furthermore it can have major pitfalls - for example even with google if you don't know something exists its very hard to search for it because you won't even know its there to ask the question in the first place. So you can easily end up missing out small yet key details.

4) Time. Practice takes considerable time and sometimes people are pressured in life and don't have ample time. This doesn't just mean short periods or a few hours in a block once a week. Some people need an hour a day to learn something - esp at the start. So that they've time to reinforce one thing they've learned and repeat it before moving on - if they only get 30 mins a week it will take them ever so much longer and might forget more between sessions which will further hinder them.


Just saying they are lazy is basically a very lazy way to argue things. It totally ignores most of the actual reasons and instead tries to act as a slur on the unpainted of which I would wager the majority would love to have painted models by their own hand.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Option 2: Lazy and annoying

Grey minis are a blight upon the hobby.

But what about grey painted modells?!?

Are you serious?

Deadly northern neighbour.

The term "deadly" makes no sense in this context.

Deadly serious or todernst....
Sarcasm and such things, but tbf you did not specify and made a general statement which promted me to pull your leg.

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

Literal first mini? Maybe not. But within the first 5-10, absolutely. Painting to a tabletop standard is easy. As long as you're capable of keeping the paint within the lines and buy a bottle of black/brown wash you can learn it in an hour or two at most.

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

People think that though. I dunno what parts of the internet you go on but I see many a social media post of newbies getting dismayed their first models are not totally amazeballs.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
Well im talking about painting to high standards.

Then why did you quote and reply to my comment about painting to a basic tabletop standard?

Well i mean im noob but i thought tabletop standard was pretty high quality


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so just ignore me

I would prefer painted if its 5 days after Christmas and not painted I don't care at all because you know TIME I personally paint al my models to the best of my ability exept for guardsmen because if you want to paint 200 minis all 3 colour edge highlights with about 15 in total be my guest.

 Overread wrote:
It totally ignores most of the actual reasons and instead tries to act as a slur on the unpainted of which I would wager the majority would love to have painted models by their own hand.

I disagree. In my experience, an impression confirmed by the anti-painting responses in this thread, the people with unpainted armies don't care about painting. They aren't sitting around wishing they could paint their models, they just don't give a about having a nice looking army and throw a heap of gray plastic in a shoebox (complete with broken parts, random legs on bases as proxies, etc).

I mean 15 base colours with as many highlights till its realistic as possible

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

People think that though. I dunno what parts of the internet you go on but I see many a social media post of newbies getting dismayed their first models are not totally amazeballs.

So you agree with me that to actually get a tabletop standard ( assuming tabletop standard is great quality ) you cant just jump in with no exp and watch a vid n get it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

People think that though. I dunno what parts of the internet you go on but I see many a social media post of newbies getting dismayed their first models are not totally amazeballs.

Which is normal - its often venting frustration because they have no means to understand what they are doing wrong. They don't understand why a guide that produces a great looking model isn't working for them. They don't realise all the little things that might even be as simple as changing their hold on the brush - they are unguided and attempting to self learn without proper self learning skills in place first. IT leads to frustration and a significant loss of self confidence.





Also lets not forget if you've just bought and built a £50 box of models and they all look rubbish that's a darn expensive lesson in time and money to learn to paint.

because i bet if you show me some first time models, i promise i am so sure i can spot many defects that would take alot of time to perfect

 Stormatious wrote:
Well i mean im noob but i thought tabletop standard was pretty high quality

No. Tabletop standard literally means what it says: suitable for putting on the table for an average game. The whole point is that it's the lowest standard of "you fully painted these models", it won't win any painting competitions but it works as a game piece. Usually it consists of very simple techniques like base coat + wash + drybrush that can get something that looks decent from across the table.

 Overread wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

People think that though. I dunno what parts of the internet you go on but I see many a social media post of newbies getting dismayed their first models are not totally amazeballs.

Which is normal - its often venting frustration because they have no means to understand what they are doing wrong. They don't understand why a guide that produces a great looking model isn't working for them. They don't realise all the little things that might even be as simple as changing their hold on the brush - they are unguided and attempting to self learn without proper self learning skills in place first. IT leads to frustration and a significant loss of self confidence.





Also lets not forget if you've just bought and built a £50 box of models and they all look rubbish that's a darn expensive lesson in time and money to learn to paint.

EXACTLY!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats why its taking me months to get my stuf done

Please keep the discussion civil people!

For what its worth I much prefer to play against a fully painted army but have not managed to get my own done in the twenty years I have owned it. Mostly because I don't enjoy painting.

Edited

 Peregrine wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It totally ignores most of the actual reasons and instead tries to act as a slur on the unpainted of which I would wager the majority would love to have painted models by their own hand.

I disagree. In my experience, an impression confirmed by the anti-painting responses in this thread, the people with unpainted armies don't care about painting. They aren't sitting around wishing they could paint their models, they just don't give a about having a nice looking army and throw a heap of gray plastic in a shoebox (complete with broken parts, random legs on bases as proxies, etc).

Aye some are throw it in a shoe box and don't care - but I'd wager a greater proportion are those who maybe once tried to learn - failed and lost confidence to paint and never tried again. Confidence is an immensely fickle thing and very easily lost. Sadly its not something that is often instilled in many through school - often you find its the kind of thing only the best of teachers learn (although I'd say quite a few driving instructors pick up the skills on imparting confidence since its a key part of getting some people from being a danger to themselves to being a competent driver)

I do not mind unpainted models. I enjoy painted models though.

What I do not like is somebody who never paint their models because they have unrealistic goals. If I got 8 houers, glued models and all the supplies I wanted I could probably pick a colour scheme that allows me to paint them, all of then, within 8 houers.

Just prime in main colour. Add wash. Drybrush, roughly. Would work for crons, any spacve marine, demon, chaos space marine, tyranid and tau.

But when they do not paint because they have unrealistic goals. That is very bad.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Option 2: Lazy and annoying

Grey minis are a blight upon the hobby.

But what about grey painted modells?!?

Are you serious?

Deadly northern neighbour.

The term "deadly" makes no sense in this context.

Deadly serious or todernst....
Sarcasm and such things, but tbf you did not specify and made a general statement which promted me to pull your leg.

Fine. Tell me, which models of your collection have you painted predominantly grey?

I guess tabletop standard is very very bad lol.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Option 2: Lazy and annoying

Grey minis are a blight upon the hobby.

But what about grey painted modells?!?

Are you serious?

Deadly northern neighbour.

The term "deadly" makes no sense in this context.

Deadly serious or todernst....
Sarcasm and such things, but tbf you did not specify and made a general statement which promted me to pull your leg.

Fine. Tell me, which models of your collection have you painted predominantly grey?

My renegade and heretics, and my csm warband.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
i find it hard to believe you can just come in to this with no experience at all and watch a video and think your first mini will be table top

People think that though. I dunno what parts of the internet you go on but I see many a social media post of newbies getting dismayed their first models are not totally amazeballs.

So you agree with me that to actually get a tabletop standard ( assuming tabletop standard is great quality ) you cant just jump in with no exp and watch a vid n get it.

Depends entirely on experience. Literally everyone has experience as pretty much everyone in the western world has painted something at school on paper at some point. The skills are transferable, which is why I always recommend newbies start with a white undercoat, as they will be far more familiar with painting on paper than a 3d object.

People do get dismayed as social media colours their perspectives. Reddit is one of the worst offenders for this as many people's "first models" are not their firsts or are the "first" for that army, they are their "first" (40k) minis, they are their "first" minis yet they neglect to mention their background in art etc.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Same. I'll grant that I'm biased, since I frequently use unpainted/barely-painted miniatures, but many comments here seem unnecessarily hostile towards unpainted miniatures.

Disagree. I think the comments have been excessively considerate and understanding towards people who play with unpainted models, but I suppose the honest truth would attract moderator attention.

I guess tabletop standard is very very bad lol.

Tabletop standard is as Peri outlines. And by Tabletop standard most do expect the bare bones bottom end. It's not saying that that is the standard all aim for on the tabletop. It's saying that that is the bare bones bottom end that gives you a basic painted force to play with. And at a foot away from you for most of a game its not all that bad. A lot of fine detail is great, but by and large you wont' see that during a game itself.

It's not that the standard is bad, its just basic and not aiming for anything of high skill nor high complexity. Heck you'd be amazed how many iwll use such a standard for their 300 clanrats and then use a much higher standard for their artillery and leaders.

My personal preference and the standard I hold myself to is nothing unpainted hits the table. Occasionally a partially finished model will get a run out, but it'll look like a finished model at first glance. I don't hold anyone else to my standards.

However.

We live in an era where a basic standard is easier than ever to achieve. I come from times when glazes and washes were things you made yourself, and even priming was done by hand if, like me, you were too young for your pocket money to stretch to a can of primer from the motor factors (because there weren't dedicated modeling sprays.)

Nowadays, you can buy a can of colored primer and a tin of dip and have an entire army two thirds finished in a weekend if your main concern is simply to get colour on the models.

I get that some people don't like the painting and modeling aspect of the hobby, but you're going to have to at least make a bit of an effort, or make peace with being tarred with the same brush as the try hards who are forever throwing down hastily assembled grey tide flavor of the month netlists in an attempt to validate themselves by stomping 11 year olds.

depends entirely on the situation..
Is it someone I know that's just started?
Are some of the models painted and others just haven't been done yet?
Is it x FOTM unit that they clearly built 30min before walking in?
Its one of those things that depend on a case by case basis. For example, there is one guy in my group that's super casual and just has 0 interest in painting. He just wants to show up on his occasional free weekend and play/drink beer. He also would never show up to an organized event with his grey army

 Stormatious wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, let's not pretend that painting is difficult. 99.9% of people are capable of doing a clean base coat + wash, and maybe some drybrushed highlights. The vast majority of people with unpainted armies don't have any disability that would prevent them from painting, they're just lazy.

I cant believe you just said that... Its hard..... trying to learn how to do all these different techniques, applying perfect width edge highlights, learning how to simply use the brush and paint strokes properly.... dude what are you talking about, learning how to focus and control your brush i mean ...

Even things like edge highlighting are not "difficult", they're just not necessarily intuitive. It does take some degree of motor control, but it's very simple in practice, as you're just tracing lines (and you don't even have to do that perfectly, you just have to not apply so much pressure that you end up hitting the wrong part of the model).

Painting miniatures decently comes down to a few main concepts:

Paint consistency: how much should you thin your paints for your desired level of flow and opacity?

Brush positioning: how should you hold your brush in relation to the surface you're painting, and in which direction should you begin and end your stroke?

Pressure: how much pressure should you apply in order to control the thickness of your line?

Someone who has no idea what they're doing is going to mess up all of those things and never know what they're doing wrong unless they experiment enough to find out on their own, yet once you are thinking along those lines all you have to do is make small adjustments in each of those three areas to achieve your desired effect. Then it's all about developing your own system to make your process more efficient.

For example, I always paint "inside out". I paint the most recessed areas first and don't really care about hitting anything outside those areas, because I'm just going to paint over them later. That way, when I get to the most raised areas which are easiest to paint without running into anything else, I'll have a neatly painted model without ever having to worry much about making mistakes. Learning to paint miniatures is just learning how to make painting easy.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How long until models are considered even "presentable" though?

Those clarences are presentable. Sure, they're objectively horrid, but at least the person is trying. Next ones will be better. And of course in this internet era tutorials are easy to come by, so getting past the clarence phase doesn't really take much effort at all.

Also as a former teacher aide I completely disagree everyone can learn to be good at anything.

Maybe not 'good.' But let's aim for 'passable.'

You can only continue to paint as long as you have models.

And NO those models are not presentable. That's purely being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I disagree everyone can do something passable just because they're passionate to learn it. King Of The Hill had a good example of this with the character Dale not being good at basket weaving.

 Stormatious wrote:


I guess tabletop standard is very very bad lol.

It doesn't have to be. Tabletop Standard CAN be bad, just like how somebody new to painting can try their best, and it's still not good or even bad.

Tabletop standard is simple and quick. It is enough to look good on the table from a distance* and get you around GW Store painting or tournament painting requirements.

*for the most part.

Tabletop Standard is a rather vague term, and it's specific definition may vary from person to person. Your Tabletop Standard, the basic that you paint to, may be better or worse than my own Tabletop Standard. But either way, it's enough to look good on the tabletop from a distance. It's different from how you'll paint your special characters and cool special dudes that you want to put more effort and actual technique in to, typically. Again, it differs from person to person.