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Do you find unpainted minis in matches acceptable?
Yes its acceptable, if people cant be bothered painting then who cares
No its unacceptable they are lazy and are annoying
I prefer people have fully painted minis, but dont really care.

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Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

You know what really is 'lame'?

Making sweeping generalizations about people when you haven't the first clue as to their actual circumstances.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,765pts painted (updated 06/05/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Excommunicatus wrote:
You know what really is 'lame'?

Making sweeping generalizations about people when you haven't the first clue as to their actual circumstances.


There are very few "actual circumstances" that justify unpainted models. Maybe you're one of the extremely rare few who has a legitimate disability that prevents them from painting, but the vast majority of the time when someone has an unpainted army it's because they're lazy, nothing more. Painting to a basic tabletop standard is way too easy and fast for an unpainted army to be acceptable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 06:21:17


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

You can assert nakedly all you want. It adds no force to your claptrap whatsoever.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,765pts painted (updated 06/05/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

I don't actually bother bringing models in the first place. I find it's cheaper and more expedient to just proxy everything with a various assortment of approximately sized Lego, toy dinosaurs and office stationary, all of which is coloured anyway, so no problem.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Excommunicatus wrote:
You know what really is 'lame'?

Making sweeping generalizations about people when you haven't the first clue as to their actual circumstances.

There sure are some special snowflakes on this forum that go out of their way to be offended by everything.

If someone can afford to buy an army and has the time to put the models together (which in almost every case takes longer than an undercoat), then it's not unreasonable to say they could also slap on some paint
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Let’s turn the heat down a bit here, folks. Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 07:03:00


   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Cynista wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
You know what really is 'lame'?

Making sweeping generalizations about people when you haven't the first clue as to their actual circumstances.

There sure are some special snowflakes on this forum that go out of their way to be offended by everything.

If someone can afford to buy an army and has the time to put the models together (which in almost every case takes longer than an undercoat), then it's not unreasonable to say they could also slap on some paint


It actually could be unreasonable. Everything from undecided on color scheme, to don't actually have any money left after buying an army to buy paint, to hating painting, to having a complicated paint scheme (aka only a small amount painted), having to chose between playing and painting due to time reasons (family, work hours, ect). There's five broad reasons why. I'm sure there are more.

I'm sure there are some snowflakes who purposely get offended here on Dakka. Many of them are in this thread, getting offended over someone else having different table top standards then they do.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Mmmpi wrote:
Cynista wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
You know what really is 'lame'?

Making sweeping generalizations about people when you haven't the first clue as to their actual circumstances.

There sure are some special snowflakes on this forum that go out of their way to be offended by everything.

If someone can afford to buy an army and has the time to put the models together (which in almost every case takes longer than an undercoat), then it's not unreasonable to say they could also slap on some paint


It actually could be unreasonable. Everything from undecided on color scheme, to don't actually have any money left after buying an army to buy paint, to hating painting, to having a complicated paint scheme (aka only a small amount painted), having to chose between playing and painting due to time reasons (family, work hours, ect). There's five broad reasons why. I'm sure there are more.

I'm sure there are some snowflakes who purposely get offended here on Dakka. Many of them are in this thread, getting offended over someone else having different table top standards then they do.

To be fair, being undecided on a colour scheme for a new army is a perfectly valid reason, as is being new to the hobby and just wanting some game experience. Like with anything there's always exceptions. But I'm talking in general. The majority of players are not new, nor are the majority of armies that are played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 07:16:29


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Mmmpi wrote:
It actually could be unreasonable. Everything from undecided on color scheme, to don't actually have any money left after buying an army to buy paint, to hating painting, to having a complicated paint scheme (aka only a small amount painted), having to chose between playing and painting due to time reasons (family, work hours, ect). There's five broad reasons why. I'm sure there are more.


None of those reasons are good ones.

The people with unpainted armies (as opposed to a few unpainted models in the process of being painted) don't have them because they're very invested in awesome painting and don't want to sacrifice quality to get stuff on the table, they have unpainted armies because they refuse to paint them. Just look at this thread, lots of people talking about how they don't want to paint their armies or complaining about how people care too much about painting requirements, not a lot of people with galleries full of amazing work asking for a bit of patience while they finish their next masterpiece. Same thing offline in my experience. It isn't people playing with unpainted stuff for a while and then having fully painted armies, it's people playing with a bunch of broken models and random legs on bases that they throw in a heap in a box between games because they don't give a about having a decent army.

Money is not an excuse. For the cost of a single kit you can buy all the paints you need. If $20-30 is beyond your budget then how exactly are you playing this game in the first place?

Having to make time sacrifices does not deserve any sympathy. Painting to a basic tabletop standard takes very little time, so realistically we're talking about skipping a game or two out of your entire playing career even if we completely rule out the possibility of spending a few minutes each night on painting (a really unrealistic assumption). And as with money, if you're so overwhelmed with family/work/etc commitments that you can't find a few hours to paint your army then how are you playing at all? Why are you investing in a hobby that you don't have time to participate in?

So what it all comes down to is "I hate painting and shouldn't have to". People don't want to paint, and don't feel any obligation to do their part to make the game enjoyable. And so we should view it exactly as we'd view someone who doesn't bother learning the rules because they hate reading, someone who shows up with a bunch of legs on bases because assembling models is too difficult, etc.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





i much prefer using unpainted miniatures, because i have back and nerve issues and i cant stay sitting for a long enough time or make fine/precise motor control movements, nor do i have the money or desire to spend money to have my models painted..

I can barely put models together as it is, but to a poor degree because i don't have the fine control to or patience to trim and remove mold lines.

I have recently started trying to paint again and its seriously bad. very discouraging.

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

 Excommunicatus wrote:
grouchoben wrote:It's pretty easy to get a unit done, if you're starting out.


It's pretty easy for you.

Many of the rest of us struggle mightily with motivation, or with having free time, or having space, or having adequate lighting, or any one of a hundred other perfectly legitimate reasons.


I mean, you cut your quote at the bit where I explain all that would be needed to do a pretty nice army, in about 150 words.

I appreciate that all lives are complicated, most lives are tough, and it can get on top of us all. I'm certainly not trying to pile on anyone. In fact focusing attention on a complex task that has a positive feedback system, in which we see ourselves improve, and we are rewarded, can be a really big help in those regards, that's all. Painting minis is one example of that kind of field of attention and expression.
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

 warmaster21 wrote:
i much prefer using unpainted miniatures, because i have back and nerve issues and i cant stay sitting for a long enough time or make fine/precise motor control movements, nor do i have the money or desire to spend money to have my models painted..

I can barely put models together as it is, but to a poor degree because i don't have the fine control to or patience to trim and remove mold lines.

I have recently started trying to paint again and its seriously bad. very discouraging.

I'm sorry to hear that. I suffer from mild neurological issues myself, though it doesn't affect my motor skills or ability to paint (that's just lack of talent ). I sincerely hope you find some way to cope and figure out a way to keep up the hobby.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 warmaster21 wrote:
I have recently started trying to paint again and its seriously bad. very discouraging.
An airbrush might help your situation, with some practice.

   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

 warmaster21 wrote:
i much prefer using unpainted miniatures, because i have back and nerve issues and i cant stay sitting for a long enough time or make fine/precise motor control movements, nor do i have the money or desire to spend money to have my models painted..


Sorry to hear that brother, that sounds like it would impact a lot of your time, not just painting. I'm not posting this in a normative way, or trying to nudge you or judge you, but I read a pretty cool thread on reddit/40k last year about a guy's deathguard, and how he'd moved over to entirely using washes due to how little precise motor control he now had, and his minis look pretty awesome. Might be worth a peek. Here's that thread, lot's of great comments in it from people in the same boat too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/7821uz/lost_my_fine_motor_control_due_to_a_nerve_issue/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 07:43:59


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Everyone should stop telling each other how they’re allowed to have fun. ;-)

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Everyone should stop telling each other how they’re allowed to have fun. ;-)

Never! Without the reassuringly tempered hand of the Fun Police, where would society stand. It'd be complete anarchy, that's what. Next you'll be saying that Kevin Bacon was right to start dancing in that town!
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Given some of the “terrain” used in tournament gaming (plain styrofoam on bare tables), it’s pretty clear that there is a “market” for unpainted, broken, unloved armies.

Not everyone gets into the cinematic spectacle of miniatures gaming. I perosnally have trouble understanding why anyone would pick minis gaming as a hobby otherwise but that’s as may be.

   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:

None of those reasons are good ones.



Obviously we disagree. I feel those are very good reasons.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Mmmpi wrote:
Obviously we disagree. I feel those are very good reasons.


If "I spent $1,000 on an army but I can't afford $10 for paint" counts as a good reason to you then I don't know what else to say.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Obviously conquest and the other ways GW is making the game easy access to all and sundry is not taking hold in some areas.

My LGS didn't paint their Blackstone fortress or kill team or Munda sets and they get people playing them all the time..

a friend is now taking his kill team into 40K and tried painting straight onto sprue without priming.

Now THAT is something I have to take issue with and offer my services to help him out ... he buys the beers I provide the airbrush.

I don't see any of the complainers here offering much of a solution other than a "Final Solution" to new gamers that don't have our years of experience / patience / skill.

I think some have forgotten that we don't actually live in M41 yet and that they would be appreciated if they made a kind offer of assistance to those that field armies of grey men! - rather than turn them into servitors asap

just my 2cp

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 08:32:06


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
I don't see any of the complainers here offering much of a solution other than a "Final Solution" to new gamers that don't have our years of experience / patience / skill.


What more solution do we need to offer? GW has plenty of step by step tutorials, complete with lists of products to buy, and the techniques required are extremely basic. The problem is not that people don't have the resources, it's that they refuse to use them.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I don't care at all to be honest.

I love assembling, converting and playing but I hate painting. I also don't have the time to paint all my stuff and to play games and going into commission work is too much money for the result IMHO and doesn't worth the investment.

In conclusion I always play with armies that have more grey models than painted ones. In fact two of the armies I own are still completely grey plastic, and we're talking about 10k of models, as I only painted orks so far and as long as the entire green collection isn't finished I won't start painting other stuff. To me is more important to be WYSIWYG.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 08:44:54


 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





Personally, I enjoy the hobby - building, converting and painting - and yet I often play with unpainted or undercoated models.

I only have a certain amount of hobby time (due to various calls on my life from other things like work, family, and other hobbies), and I don't like to bring half-painted or low-quality models. It's worse to me than playing with unpainted ones.

Several years ago, I played Guard. I went to a tournament with them, and in order to meet the painting requirements, I painted them to tabletop level - four block colours, shade with a wash, and base. To my surprise, it made me feel worse about the army - it actively detracted from my enjoyment. I quit the army not long after, and the fact that I hated the fact I was playing with models which were painted to a relatively low quality and which I had painted as a chore was a big part of that.

I paint my stuff, but slowly. It can easily take multiple evenings to paint a 10-man squad to the point where I don't feel actively worse for putting them on the table. More for characters or centrepieces. Sometimes I get a burst of energy and paint up two or three units over the course of a week, and sometimes it is a chore.

So the idea that someone is telling me I'm not allowed to enjoy the hobby with my gaming group until I've dedicated that much of my limited free time to painting it, removing the enjoyment I want to get out of painting because it's become an obligation... yeah, that's not going to inspire me to paint.

If you don't want to play against unpainted armies, that's fine; you can always politely decline the game. But don't insult me or claim my enjoyment of the hobby is invalid unless I let one of my favourite parts become an obligation. When i paint, it's to enjoy painting and produce something i can be proud of, not to meet someone else's threshold for a "proper" gamer.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Again, there is a huge difference between having an unpainted model or two in a mostly-painted army because you're still working on them and having an entire unpainted army because you refuse to paint anything. If, as you say, you're painting a unit a week and possibly 2-3 units then you should have no problem getting a fully painted army together. In fact you even mention playing several years ago, enough time to have painted multiple entire armies. So no, you aren't banned from enjoying the hobby, just bring some of your painted models and leave the unpainted stuff at home until it's finished.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 Peregrine wrote:
Again, there is a huge difference between having an unpainted model or two in a mostly-painted army because you're still working on them and having an entire unpainted army because you refuse to paint anything. If, as you say, you're painting a unit a week and possibly 2-3 units then you should have no problem getting a fully painted army together. In fact you even mention playing several years ago, enough time to have painted multiple entire armies. So no, you aren't banned from enjoying the hobby, just bring some of your painted models and leave the unpainted stuff at home until it's finished.

I didn't say I'm painting a unit a week; I said it takes multiple evenings and that I don't have much free time to dedicate to painting. It can take two weeks or a month for me to find the time to paint a unit, and that's before taking into account show months, crunch periods at work etc, which can easily leave me effectively unable find the time to paint at all for weeks on end.

EDIT: To clarify, it's rare that I get more than one evening a week I can dedicate to painting, and some weeks I don't even get that. I can only paint multiple units on those rare occasions when I have a burst of energy for it and have time off work at the same time; maybe once or twice a year.

I may not be banned from gaming entirely, but under your rules it would take me six months or a year to get a new army to a playable standard. Why should you get to dictate that I'm not allowed to use my new models for multiple months after I've settled on a list and bought and built the models?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 09:45:23


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I don't mind much, as I do it sometimes myself. Thing is, I prefer to play a grey/primed mini than one WIP without corrections or washes that just looks unfinished, it hurts me to watch my unfinished minis and I try not to play with them, so if I want to play with it I paint it reasonably fast.

I don't expect everyone to play fully painted because for some armies it takes a HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME (playing AdMech and Drukhari) and my priority is the game. I'm not going to wait until my whole army is painted to finally play with it months and months later when it hurts nobody to face an unpainted army.

With some opponents who made the effort to fully paint their armies I'll build a list with the most painted models possible though, as I want them to be rewarded in their work in a way. Especially with opponents who don't play often and want their game to be memorable.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Aelyn wrote:
Why should you get to dictate that I'm not allowed to use my new models for multiple months after I've settled on a list and bought and built the models?


Because unpainted models look like and I don't want to see them on my table. You have painted armies, play with those until you finish the new stuff. You might as well complain that it isn't fair that you can't proxy your army with a bunch of legs on bases because you've settled on a list but shouldn't have to wait a few months until you can afford to buy the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aaranis wrote:
when it hurts nobody to face an unpainted army


Speak for yourself. I'd rather go home without playing a game than slog through a miserable experience against a horde of gray plastic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 09:50:49


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






The Hobby is not universal.

Me, I'm a reluctant painter, but do get there in the end. And whilst I don't particularly enjoy playing against a TinBoy, it's not for me to tell them how to indulge their hobby.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Hobby is not universal.


The game, however, involves multiple players. If you want to keep your hobby to yourself and build models without ever painting them, fine. But if you want to play a game involving another person then painting them to a tabletop standard is just basic courtesy. You wouldn't show up for a game without bothering to bring your codex or dice or whatever, so why should it be ok to show up without a finished army?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

If people have tried to paint, realised they're never going to get any good, and basecoated-with-wash, I'm happy.
If a proxy unit hits the table, mid-assembly, and is likely to be painted next time, I'm happy.
If a whole army is spending its 3rd year out and untouched by any kind of paint, I silently seethe, yet try to show no signs of grumpiness.

Painting is a huge part of the hobby, but not the only thing.
WYSIWYG is a part of some of these games, and can make-or-break an opponent's turn. Not being able to see the differences, due to the grey sea, is annoying.

Judicious use of a rattle-can, followed by dip or wash, is better than nothing. It is appreciated.

As for grey armies in matches.... Just no.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 09:59:12


6000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
 
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