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Between TDA, Tartaros, or Cataphractii terminators, which are the best and why?

TDA
Cheap. Base of 32 points with base gear.
Good weapon options. CML is cheaper.

Cataphractii
Better invuln save. 4++ vs 5++ is 33% more durability vs high AP attacks. (out of 10 wounds taken, 5 will be taken vs 6.6)
Slower
A bit more expensive (3 ppm)

Tartaros
Cheap. Base of 32 points with base gear.
Reaper autocannons are great for their cost.
Good weapon options.

Deathwatch termis due to being able to pick any power weapon and having SIA on top of good stratagems.

Do you mean per model (GK) or pr per points (not GK)?

I know SW termies have a lot of flexabilaties and show up in the oddest places. But termies over all are bad now, or so the rumour says.

If you're looking for lightning claw terminators cataphractii are apparently the cheapest option. Along with that sweet sweet 4++ and grenade harness.

I've found that using them with crimson fists with a cataphractii captain who has the fist of vengeance and stoic defender can take and hold pretty much any objective in the game indefinitely.

Grey Knights in TDA are still the best of the still worthless TDA units, with Death Watch TDA next best of the worst.

SJ

 Niiai wrote:
But termies over all are bad now, or so the rumour says.

It ain't no rumor, it's basic math. They are over costed, have poor survivability for their points, no mobility, and under perform for their points.

Having said that, I still play Deathwing because I love terminators and the lore behind them. It's too bad GW doesn't any longer...

If you're counting Custodes, Allarus Custodians are pretty solid. Rules also came out for Aquilon Custodians which are even better, as they can take Lastrum Storm Bolters that basically shoot heavy bolter rounds or Firepikes that are 12" heavy flamers with +1 STR. They can also take Solerite Power Gauntlets that are basically AP-4 power fists without the -1 to hit rolls hitting at STR 10. These guys might be the best termies the Imperium has and are actually good units.

If we're only talking Space Marines then I'd say SW Wolf Guard for Combi plasma and Storm Shields or DW Termies for SIA and the ability to take meltaguns with their power fists.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
If you're counting Custodes, Allarus Custodians are pretty solid. Rules also came out for Aquilon Custodians which are even better, as they can take Lastrum Storm Bolters that basically shoot heavy bolter rounds or Firepikes that are 12" heavy flamers with +1 STR. They can also take Solerite Power Gauntlets that are basically AP-4 power fists without the -1 to hit rolls hitting at STR 10. These guys might be the best termies the Imperium has and are actually good units.

If we're only talking Space Marines then I'd say SW Wolf Guard for Combi plasma and Storm Shields or DW Termies for SIA and the ability to take meltaguns with their power fists.

wait, space wolves get Combi-plasma/Storm Shield Terminators??

Holy moly those are HANDS DOWN the best loyalist termies then.

the_scotsman wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
If you're counting Custodes, Allarus Custodians are pretty solid. Rules also came out for Aquilon Custodians which are even better, as they can take Lastrum Storm Bolters that basically shoot heavy bolter rounds or Firepikes that are 12" heavy flamers with +1 STR. They can also take Solerite Power Gauntlets that are basically AP-4 power fists without the -1 to hit rolls hitting at STR 10. These guys might be the best termies the Imperium has and are actually good units.

If we're only talking Space Marines then I'd say SW Wolf Guard for Combi plasma and Storm Shields or DW Termies for SIA and the ability to take meltaguns with their power fists.

wait, space wolves get Combi-plasma/Storm Shield Terminators??

Holy moly those are HANDS DOWN the best loyalist termies then.

I'm not really seeing the hype, TBH. At 180pts for 5, it's not the worst loadout ever, but you're incredibly vulnerable to getting shut down in CQC and never getting out, so the durability gains from the Terminator armor and the Storm Shield don't really matter.

Well, the glory about SW is the customisation. So you could plop down one or two melee terminators in there as well. I suppose the super customisebol group from 5th edition is gone where you could mix and match power armour and terminator armour.

I think regular wolf guards can take shields and combi plasma as well, no?

 Niiai wrote:
Well, the glory about SW is the customisation. So you could plop down one or two melee terminators in there as well. I suppose the super customisebol group from 5th edition is gone where you could mix and match power armour and terminator armour.

I think regular wolf guards can take shields and combi plasma as well, no?

Yes, but the point difference is not worth it, IMO. (27ppm instead of 36ppm.)

bobafett012 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
But termies over all are bad now, or so the rumour says.

It ain't no rumor, it's basic math. They are over costed, have poor survivability for their points, no mobility, and under perform for their points.

Having said that, I still play Deathwing because I love terminators and the lore behind them. It's too bad GW doesn't any longer...

I just ran a DW list with 30 termies and 5 dreads using the new beta bolter rule in a 2k list.

It was not horrible. We played ITC and it was 20 to 24. The DW took down morty on round two, and did a good number on his other units.
His contemptor dread removed handfuls of termies. One of this DPs wiped a squad of termies. His other DP died to the dread CCWs.

Being able to throw 140 storm bolter dice a round really did work. The 10 LCs and CML I had also were pretty effective. Generally what I shot at died fairly quickly. LC's and ML's can do some work. I think I would do better if I could drop 2 of them for 10 more terminators, but you play with what models you have.

I think the next time I run this, I'm going to go 'counts as' deathwatch to get the SMA. Being able to wound things like morty on a 2+ would have been huge. Being able to shoot 30" to plague marines and get an extra -1 AP would have been great. My plan will be to drop some dreads, and grab 3 vet squads with some termies mixed in. It's not quite deathwing fluffy, but it's still pretty cool.

Definitely give the Deathwatch a try. Either Power Maul or possibly Claw (I want to try the Claw load out as they have a +1 to wound strat so no worse than a rerollable 5+ against everything with -2 AP seems promising)

Vanilla Marines - I quite like Tartaros, run cheap. 5 combi bolters & free grenade harness, 6" move, 164pts. I think this kind of termi are best walking up the board now, so I like the 6" move.

Otherwise, Custodes & DW have the best termis imo.

for board control and CC ability the Deathwing Knights are hands down the best for imperium. I would argue that they can rival a ten man squad of Bulgryns for survivability and damage output.
2+ 3+, autopass moral, 2 wound, 2 attack s8 -2 ap 3 dm hits ws3 that dont -1 to hit. Some psycic protection (watcher) and can DS into cover or near the enemy. All for just 25 pts less than BobbyG

For shooty Termies: 5 Deathwatch terminators combat squaded from a Veteran killteam i think are the best a buck fifty five for 5 Termies that are troops can DS and shoot 4 SIA bolter shots a turn is nothing to sneeze at

BA sang guard are pretty damn good. They have the same statline as termis, can move 12", have FLY, cost less points with PF, get +1 to wound, can use melta pistols or plasma pistols, can get a 3D6 charge, and with a sang ancient warlord with the standard of sacrifice they re-roll all failed hit rolls, and get a 5+ FNP.

 p5freak wrote:
BA sang guard are pretty damn good. They have the same statline as termis, can move 12", have FLY, cost less points with PF, get +1 to wound, can use melta pistols or plasma pistols, can get a 3D6 charge, and with a sang ancient warlord with the standard of sacrifice they re-roll all failed hit rolls, and get a 5+ FNP.

Well, If we want to go down that route, Grey Knights will almost always field 2-3 Grand Masters in Nemesis DreadKnight Armor, because Monstrous Creature Chapter Masters is kind of our only thing this edition.

SJ

I tried out this list this past week at 2k points. I was using my Deathwing models and 'counts as' deathwatch

Watch Captain
10 terminators w/9 PF + 1 PS + 10 SBs + CMLs
10 terminators w/9 PF + 1 PS + 10 SBs + CML
10 terminators w/9 PF + 1 PS + 10 SBs
1 Dreadnaught w/Dual LC + SB

Librarian
1 Dreadnaught w/Dual LC + SB
1 Dreadnaught w/Dual LC + SB
1 Venerable Dreadnaught w/Dual LC + SB
1 Venerable Dreadnaught w/Dual LC + SB

It hits like a mac truck. The SIA is the secret in the sauce that makes it work well. 30" bolters really some work. The 2+ poison is great. This combined wonderfully with the tactics of deathwatch, letting me reroll 1s.

In one game, an ork player dropped 30 'ard points 10" from a squad of termies. I used 'auspex' to get a free round of shooting, and then with the overwatch, only 7 of boys got into assault and the power fists tore them right now.

If you can find some cover for them, the termies can be very hard to dislodge. 12 lootas shot a ton of shots into my termies, forcing 8 saves. Since I was in cover, they were 2+ saves and I lost 1 termie. He was a bit ... underwhelmed.

Then, if your opponent uses the right weapon, things don't work out as well. Ravagers still made me pick up handfulls of models. Weapons that push you down to the invuln save and do 2 damage just wreck your day. Not having any troops is full of suck if you can't manage to clear off that last troop model hiding on an objective. Only having 5 CPs is a big drawback. (there is a warlord trait that will net you ~1-2 back over the game, which helps)

 labmouse42 wrote:
Not having any troops is full of suck if you can't manage to clear off that last troop model hiding on an objective. Only having 5 CPs is a big drawback. (there is a warlord trait that will net you ~1-2 back over the game, which helps)

Yeah, if you're aiming at an all TDA/Dread army, lack of troops/CP suck.

AFAIK the only way to mitigate this is to add a GK battalion:

HQ: Brother-Captain w/ Psycannon, power: Astral Aim (allows targeting units out of LoS and ignores cover)
HQ: Brother-Captain w/ Fury of Deimos, power: Astral Aim
Troops: 3x 5x GK Termies w/ 1 Psycannon, power: Astra Aim

It's not completely barebones, just a bit tooled up to keep in with the shootiness of your DW list. You'll lose on SIA which as you said really help the Termies shine (relatively), but it's also adding some S7 firepower, so they could replace some Dreadnoughts for lighter vehicles but not too many as the LCs will still be needed for heavier vehicles.

I started with 2BCs with Psycannons, but with the beta bolter rules the Relic SB Fury of Deimos: 30" RF3 S5 AP-1 D1 could be interesting, being always 6 shots at max range as it's mounted on a TDA. But you have to make him the WL or splurge the 1CP on a list that is tight on it.
It's that And/or Bane Bolts on the Watch Master, which sound sexy as well.

It's 884 pts though. Brings you 5 extra CPs and 15 troops. Whether it is an acceptable trade-off remains to be seen.

GK Battalion:

HQ: Brother-Captain w/ Psycannon, power: Astral Aim (allows targeting units out of LoS and ignores cover)
HQ: Brother-Captain w/ Fury of Deimos, power: Astral Aim
Troops: 5 GK Termies w/ 1 Psycannon, power: Astra Aim
Troops: 5 GK Termies w/ 1 Psycannon, power: Astra Aim
Troops: 5 GK Termies w/ 1 Psycannon, power: Astra Aim

DW Vanguard:

HQ: Watch Captian w/ Relic Blade, SB
Elites: 5 Termies w/ 1PS, 4PF, CML
Elites: 5 Termies w/ 1PS, 4PF, CML
Elites: 5 Termies w/ 1PS, 4PF
Elites: Dread with Twin LC, SB
Elites: Dread with Twin LC, SB
Elites: Venerable Dread with Twin LC, SB

2000pts, 9CP

It's a very rough attempt, had to drop the DW Libby (and hence 1CP of the second Vanguard) to be able to keep some CMLs.
Not too sure it's an improvement on your list...

well, I noticed a top ITC player has 10 Deathwing Knights in his list as an auxiliary support.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
But termies over all are bad now, or so the rumour says.

It ain't no rumor, it's basic math. They are over costed, have poor survivability for their points, no mobility, and under perform for their points.

Having said that, I still play Deathwing because I love terminators and the lore behind them. It's too bad GW doesn't any longer...

Their durabilty is fine. The issue is they can't kill anything for the points. Like, at all.

 bullyboy wrote:
well, I noticed a top ITC player has 10 Deathwing Knights in his list as an auxiliary support.

A 3++ and hefty melee weapons that hit on a 3+ are pretty good. They can work as countercharge or you can teleport them in to put pressure on your opponent.

I would not have considered them top-tier myself but obviously he knows something I don't.

Yeah that list had me confused, but it really is a good backfield drop. As long as he isn't getting beat hard already, it's almost impossible to kill.

I think he took it to counter the emporer's wrath IG detachments people knew were coming.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Their durabilty is fine. The issue is they can't kill anything for the points. Like, at all.

Have you seen the new bolter beta rule?

A 10 man terminator tactical squad is throwing out 40 bolter shots at 24". Try playing with a few squads of these, and you will be impressed by the firepower. So far, every opponent I have played has been.

Without the bolter beta rules, I agree with you. This rule doubles their firepower past 12", which is most of the time.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Their durabilty is fine. The issue is they can't kill anything for the points. Like, at all.

Have you seen the new bolter beta rule?

A 10 man terminator tactical squad is throwing out 40 bolter shots at 24". Try playing with a few squads of these, and you will be impressed by the firepower. So far, every opponent I have played has been.

Without the bolter beta rules, I agree with you. This rule doubles their firepower past 12", which is most of the time.

Literally all of us have seen the new Bolter rule. A unit that pops in with Deep Strike anyway doesn't gain a lot in the way of benefits from it. Sure it's nice to be slightly more mobile, but it doesn't fix their core issue.

Plus everyone knows the biggest winners from the rule are Centurions.

I'd say SW Wolf Guard terminators point for point. You get a basic one with Stormbolter and Power Sword/maul for 29 points, they can move and still fire 4 shots a model at 24" and suddenly some of the hard counters such as plasma guns only get to fire half as many shots back. Sure, point for point not as efficient as regular servo Wolf Guard wit stormbolters are at 12" (16 PPM), but a single Terminator is 3 points cheaper than two of them, has the same number of wounds and fails half as many armor saves, while getting the same firepower between 13"-24" (unless the Servo Guards stay still... but how often does that happen?).

Sure, they won't be suddenly popping up in hardcore uber competitive tournament lists, but they are definitely a decent unit you can now take without handicapping your list even at more relaxed tourneys with lower stakes , five of them are 145 points and pump out 20 bolter shots at 24", likely from within cover too (which gives them a nice 1+ save, great against AP -2 or -3 weapons). Also okay in melee if it comes to it and can tie down chaff and against non-cc focused units that won't murderize them (e.g. big Ork mob, Genestealers or Zerkers if they get to strike first) they are pretty good, especially if they got 4+ or 3+ saves, thanks to essentially getting to hit on 2+ under all circumstances in the turn of combat that matters most.

Sadly the new rules doesn't really make the the one Terminator unit which needs to actually be viable the most actually viable: Grey Knights Terminators. At 41 points they are just hideously overpriced and massively underpowered when compared to even regular Custodian Guards (which are only 14 points more pricy per model). If they were 32-34 points they'd be decent.As is you are still way better off taking Strike Squads instead, even if they are also overpriced and very mediocre for what you pay for them.

31 for the same loadout but the addition of Special Issue Ammo tips it in favour of the Deathwatch for me.

 Eldarain wrote:
31 for the same loadout but the addition of Special Issue Ammo tips it in favour of the Deathwatch for me.

Good point, it's hard to argue with buffed SIA bolters. Guess that makes Wolf Guard Terminators the 2nd best for the points .

Frost Weapons are still absurdly costed compared to the Power Fist now though, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Frost Weapons are still absurdly costed compared to the Power Fist now though, right?

Not much of an issue because they aren't mandatory, you can get relatively cheap power swords/mauls at 4 points (bringing them to 29 points with storm bolters. Axes are okay too at 5 points. Frost Sword at 7 points (+2 points for another AP over the axe) is also decent on the pack leader thanks to his 3 attacks.

The thing about regular dudes in a Space Wolves army is that they do get to hit on 2+ in the first round of any combat, so the weapons actually do something and aren't completely wasted points.

That said, those are still regular old marines with two wounds and a 2+ save, it edges them ahead of regular wolf guard and especially Grey Hunters point for point thanks to their utility at 29 points. Throwing in expensive upgrades just turns them into overpriced elite infantry again, while storm shields for 2 points are nice, but essentially remove the point they have going for it: massed anti infantry small arms firepower at medium range outside the usual infantry engagement range, while being nice speedblocks as well and very hard to shift if you can get them on objectives.
If you take expensive melee upgrades (and anything above 5 points IS pretty damn pricy on 25 point dudes with a SB and nothing else) just results in them being too immobile (5" movement) to get into range, won't pop up until round 2 and have to do risky deep strikes, spend several turns in transport etc.
Not to mention the main issue: if you end up playing against pure shooty armies with weak infantry and characters (imps, tau, etc.) then all that melee killing power is pretty wasted. You just end with another "the typical marine unit in 8th edition" mediocre to bad unit.


Take five Wolf Guard terminators, give one a stormshield and a stormbolter, give them power swords, mauls or axes if you feel fancy (axe is good on the pack leader), no fancy upgrades. Or if you are okay with giving up situational melee completely just grab 5 dudes with stormshields and stormbolters for 27 points each.
Wait, Armybuilder says this actually is legit:

Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour pack [13 PL, 138pts]

4x Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour
- Storm bolter
- Storm shield
Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour
- Power axe
- Storm bolter

Goddamn, now that I see it... that looks pretty amazing. 2W 2+/3++, bringing down the pain at range and still got 8 regular attacks and 3 axe attacks hitting on 2+ in the first round of combat. For 27 points per SB/SS model. And the entire unit is only 8 points more expensive than 10 naked grey hunters and they don't even need transports, just place them at the edges of your deployment and they instantly have a 29" threat range turn one. And they are killy against most armies that aren't knight or custodes heavy while not wasting point in dubious melee upgrades that aren't doing much and might see absolutely no action in many matchups.

I need to run this. I think I just found the unit that is going to unshelf my SW for the first time since the first two months of 8th ed.