Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Just a note here, I've seen a lot of push from posters in this thread that R & H should have either most or even all of the guard options and then chaos stuff on top of that. That just doesn't work from a game design stand point unless they are going to be priced as more expensive that their loyalist equivalent and that just doesn't jive with a lot of their fluff.

Traitors should be a bit more rag tag because they don't have access to the massive supply chain that the IOM has. I'm not entirely sure in game how this should be represented but they have to give up something.

Ok, have you ever seen the Renegade index / codex?

I am going one to one copy the access from there, like it was.

Be happy that i do not include the vraksian list which had far more access overall.

Also what you think is allready included via how militia works.
Further i can't go more ragtag on infantry since gw decided it would be a good idea to lower ppm for guardsmen to 4. Which meant that i either have to include the armor upgrade for militia allready or worse the militia Training.

Additionally random leadership is still there to represent the questionable quality, the lower average bs/ws is still there.

Infact access is even more restricted since f.e. Valkyires are going to be tied to the magos and Blody handed reaver devotions and the acess to regular tanks is lowered for Master of the horde as is moh access to militia Training.

The forced unit picks are also still there, etc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
There are a few minute details that still need to be changed. For example, the Mutant Overlord is supposed to have access to a Spined Chaos Beast, but those went OOP long ago and are hard to find. Is there something else we can have to add as an "or" option?

May i reccomend you the following?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/990/648864.page

It is in essence a huge feth off Chaosspawn, why not build one yourself?

Take a Tygron as a base model, or a carnifex.

I used a vortex beastie thing that thousand sons can now have and used the nurgle mount from end times as a giant spawn. Work well.

Andykp wrote:
I used a vortex beastie thing that thousand sons can now have and used the nurgle mount from end times as a giant spawn. Work well.

Did not even think about that, sweet, may we see pictures?

Hmm, an interesting idea indeed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh that reminds me, how should cultists fit in with this? Do they need to be changed at all?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?

By having the renegades get Imperial Guard keywords and allowing allied detachments in the same way as a Stealer cult (so some restrictions) they would be able to get stuff like Valkries and ride around in them...

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Hmm, an interesting idea indeed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh that reminds me, how should cultists fit in with this? Do they need to be changed at all?

Cultists are gone.
they can go back to their CSM codex.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?

By having the renegades get Imperial Guard keywords and allowing allied detachments in the same way as a Stealer cult (so some restrictions) they would be able to get stuff like Valkries and ride around in them...

I think we're going with Valkyries being only accessible to Bloody-handed Reaver devotees

https://www.dropbox.com/s/flv64puyeht7jvu/Renegades%20and%20Heretics%20IA13%20Update..pdf?dl=0

Here, the first drop:
Including: the base special rules, some thought processes, an generic aura effect for the renegade commanders, and special equipment aswell.

I think we're going with Valkyries being only accessible to Bloody-handed Reaver devotees

I am soon uploading the list of what we are allowed to chose, but in essence I suggest it will remain the same as before (index +FAQ) for all demagogues i think.

that said, if we restrict access to valkyries then the Magos will be able to field them aswell.

_______________________________________________

What still needs doing:

Implementing the Arch demagogue and his devotions. Probably the biggest part about this.

Reintroducing:

the Renegade Veterans.
Plague Zombies:

Rewriting the militia rules, yes we will no longer get 1/5 dudes special weapons. Instead 10/dudes allow for a special and a HWT.

Ideas regarding the <War Plan> traits. These are atm placeholders.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I used a vortex beastie thing that thousand sons can now have and used the nurgle mount from end times as a giant spawn. Work well.

Did not even think about that, sweet, may we see pictures?

I’ll try and get some later on. The vortex thing is a nurgle on, all tentacle mouth and no warp thing on its back.

Looking at the pdf so far, I am liking the look of it. The aura is a good addition, but the 6'' range keeps it from wing utterly abusive. The War Plans also look reasonable, though I think we a can agree we should brainstorm a couple more just for variety. What I like most is the anti-CP clause, since this discourages people from just adding the R&H as blobs but still gives us the option of taking seperate CSM or CD detachments without additional penalties.

Overall, well done sir and I applaud you for your work and effort!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an idea for a war plan:

Reckless Bombardment - Renegade Earthshaker Carriages, Medusa Carriages, Heavy Quad Launchers, and Heavy Mortars all gain +1 to hit. In addition, each model can take d3 extra shots. If you choose to take the extra shots roll a d6. On a 6+, it overheats and takes d3 mortal wounds. If this would cause the model to be removed from the table, it detonates and deals d3 mortal wounds to the Renegade crew.

Whenever one of these units targets an enemy within 12" of any of your units, roll a d6 for each of your units within 12" of the target. On a 4+ it suffers d3 mortal wounds. If the unit has 10 or more models in it, instead it takes d6 mortal wounds.

I honestly thought more along the line of a "Artillery Tyrant". Instead of a bombardment.

Basically, he is only 0-1. And an elites choice. 30pts like his IG counterpart, however he has to buy one of these choices:
Also instead of rerolling 1's for hit rolls he allows rerolling 1 for determining the ammount of shots fired for Basilisks, Wyverns, griffons, Earthshaker batteries,etc.


Mortar strike: 30 pts 3D6 S4 0ap d1
Heavy mortar strike: 60 pts Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 d3
Earthshaker strike: 100pts. Heavy D6 S9 AP-3 d3

How they function: basically you can chose a point on the map that the Artilery tyrant can see, put down a marker there.

All units that walk into a radious of 6" have to roll a d6:
1-3 nothing happens, the crew is sleeping. 4-5 a shooting attack happens with the profile: on a 6: the unit that walks into that radious get's the maximum hits and damage aswell as D3 bonus hits.

I guess that works, I was just trying to add to the war plans.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I guess that works, I was just trying to add to the war plans.

its not bad. However a trait should benefit the whole core of the army. this would only really benefit Artillery pieces.

We could add something like Infantry may add up to 6" when they charge in a turn where artillery fired, but the next turn they must roll a d6. On a 3+, the infantry break ranks out of fear of being hit by the artillery and must fall back at least 6 inches if able?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
We could add something like Infantry may add up to 6" when they charge in a turn where artillery fired, but the next turn they must roll a d6. On a 3+, the infantry break ranks out of fear of being hit by the artillery and must fall back at least 6 inches if able?

You kinda mean like Stormtroopers of WW1.
I'd rather have said that on a roll of D6 1-3 the charging squad suffers all misses of the artillery as hits against them. Tha however is still a tad strange for a trait.?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

1. "Dug in", any Infantry unit that remained stationary gains +1 LD and +1 to saves, against shooting or psychic attacks, if the unit did not move at all during the turn/s, deployment does not count as moved.
Additionally, only up to a 3+ save. (the thought process is, that carapce armored veterans, disciples, etc should not be harder to shift through gunfire then terminators/marines.)

2. "Rioteers", All frag grenades automatically hit, additionally add +4 " on the range of any grenade and instead of 1 per unit now per 3 Squad members a grenade can be thrown rounding down. Loses -1 Ld if a enemy vehicle is within 6".

3. "Fanatical Zealots" All charge/ advance rolls can be rerolled, additionally treat all rapidfire weapon as assault profile. Can never fall back, rerolls 1 to hit in melee.

So far.
I think i will rename the first one to "Trenchfighters"

I would suggest the following 2 so that we would have 5 traits.

4."Superior Firepower": All heavy weapons with a regular shot ammount gain +1 on all their hit rolls. Heavy D3/6 weapons gain flat 1 additional shot.
All squads that field a heavy weapon must reduce their M and WS charachteristic by 1.

5. "Mass Assult": All enemy units suffer a -1 to hit if they do not target the closest unit. All Renegade and Heretics Infantry units suffer a -1 LD penality.

I really REALLY want a suicide bomber unit of infantry.

Just regular traitor guardsman stats with suicide vests.

1-5 models.

Suicide vests:

- Detonate: Inflict d6 S8 AP-3 Dd3 hits in a 6" radius.
- Warp-explosives (or whatever): d3 mortal wounds instead of the regular stats.

When a model from this unit is slain, roll a d6. On a 6+ they detonate.

Obviously friendly units can be hit.


Something like that, anyway.

Here's another I've been mulling over. This one goes along with some of the troops being hired guns.

- Incentivized Slaughter
Whenever a Renegade Infantry unit destroys an enemy unit, roll a d6 and take the result from the list:
•1-2 - Increase the attack of that unit by 1.
•3-4 - Return 1 slain model from that unit to the battlefield.
•5 - Increase the weapon skill of that unit by 1 (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Marauders are exempt from this rule).
•6 - Increase the strength of that unit by 1. (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Matauders are exempt from this rule).

If any affected unit falls back, it loses all benefits gained so far.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I really REALLY want a suicide bomber unit of infantry.

Just regular traitor guardsman stats with suicide vests.

1-5 models.

Suicide vests:

- Detonate: Inflict d6 S8 AP-3 Dd3 hits in a 6" radius.
- Warp-explosives (or whatever): d3 mortal wounds instead of the regular stats.

When a model from this unit is slain, roll a d6. On a 6+ they detonate.

Obviously friendly units can be hit.


Something like that, anyway.

You realise that this is anathema to Chaos, since instead of only the strong survive it gets replaced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Here's another I've been mulling over. This one goes along with some of the troops being hired guns.

- Incentivized Slaughter
Whenever a Renegade Infantry unit destroys an enemy unit, roll a d6 and take the result from the list:
•1-2 - Increase the attack of that unit by 1.
•3-4 - Return 1 slain model from that unit to the battlefield.
•5 - Increase the weapon skill of that unit by 1 (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Marauders are exempt from this rule).
•6 - Increase the strength of that unit by 1. (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Matauders are exempt from this rule).

If any affected unit falls back, it loses all benefits gained so far.

This seems like a better solution imo.

I just wanted something to focus on for an army of sell-swords, which is basically what Marauders already are. The more people you kill, the more plunder you get when the battle is over. If you have to fall back, you'll likely lose any evidence of your kills and you get paid nothing.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I just wanted something to focus on for an army of sell-swords, which is basically what Marauders already are. The more people you kill, the more plunder you get when the battle is over. If you have to fall back, you'll likely lose any evidence of your kills and you get paid nothing.

Hmm that has a point but the Marauders are the only hired guns.

Why not add a archdemagogue that allows for marauders as troops?

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. It's something that could be both be very strong and weak at the same time. Sure, you may have a ton of them, but one bad roll and your army drops their guns and leaves.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Hmm, that's an interesting idea. It's something that could be both be very strong and weak at the same time. Sure, you may have a ton of them, but one bad roll and your army drops their guns and leaves.

A 1/6 chance, no matter the cost they suffered and imunity against morale shenanigans are a tradeoff i'd make anytime.

I agree completely, but the fact that that chance of getting a 1 looms will always be there at the back of your mind.... Wow I did not mean for this to get so philosophical.

I now updated the Rules and Demagogue devotions:

Here the full link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/flv64puyeht7jvu/Renegades%20and%20Heretics%20IA13%20Update..pdf?dl=0

What changed:

Baleful Judge was reeimplemented, this is the rule that replaces the Enforcer D3 dead rule, since it would've been significantly to strong with certain demagogue devotions.

Chosen handpicked Bodyguards:
this is a new one to mark command Disciple squads with covenants and connect them closer to the Demagogue. They deny weapons like sniperrifles to target your demagogue but are more expensive , also only carrier of Command voxes.

Arch demagogue devotions is where i need some Feedback, i decided to adapt them to fit better with 8th edition. As always Commentary and thoughts of me are written in cursive.

Feedback appreciated.

I also decided that R&H will not gain Warlord traits but instead get devotions that are bought for the Arch demagogue.

I also deliberated a harsher penalty for R&H detachments in a Army that does not field a Archdemagogue warlord.

I reckon that the uncertainty worth should be rolled once and apply to the entire army. To make it easier to keep track

I updated the OP with your dropbox link.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I updated the OP with your dropbox link.

Thanks is incomplete i do hope you have mentioned that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I reckon that the uncertainty worth should be rolled once and apply to the entire army. To make it easier to keep track

And miss out on morale managment which makes or breaks your army?
Ehem rather not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also beyond the fact that the Layout is terrible atm, what are your opinions?

I am also now in the stratagem planning stage.

I did mention it's a WIP. Still gotta give it a proper read.

Not sure about the bodyguards being the only ones who can have command Vox-nets, that should just be given to all command squads. Otherwise it looks good.

On another note, IA13 has it that only armies without covenants can use marauders. Not sure I like that idea.

Me neither. Really not a fan of restrictions, with few exceptions. Just arbitrary nonsense.