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Not Online!!! wrote:



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 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I reckon that the uncertainty worth should be rolled once and apply to the entire army. To make it easier to keep track

And miss out on morale managment which makes or breaks your army?
Ehem rather not

.

Can still use moral management, elites will still have a higher moral d6 + 3 or something so still apply and enforcers etc

I'd prefer the leadership be established on a unit-by-unit basis.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'd prefer the leadership be established on a unit-by-unit basis.

Then how do you keep track of the leadership of 20+ units? Not to mention how much time with all the rolling takes and you don’t get to roll for leadership of the command squads until they need to take a check so if they don’t shoot at them then they don’t get their ld even with a vox

Pen and paper work pretty well

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Not sure about the bodyguards being the only ones who can have command Vox-nets, that should just be given to all command squads. Otherwise it looks good.

On another note, IA13 has it that only armies without covenants can use marauders. Not sure I like that idea.

You gain access to a command squad by either fielding a Renegade commander, which will get the Aura, and a Archdemagogue.

That means you have access to potentially 4 command voxes, 4 Banners, atleast.

However the marauders indeed are a problem.
I would therefore suggest the following:
"All Archdemagogues unlock 0-3 Marauder squads." This has two main effects:
A.) All R&H armies have regular access to what is probably our best elite unit.
B.) All Soup Armies that don't field an Archdemagogue as warlord will not get any Marauders at all.

HOWEVER: Arch Demagogues that do not have any Covenant may choose 0-6 Marauder Squads.
This way unaligned Demagogues show their proficency at getting mercs better since they are not aligned and regular armies don't change that much.





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DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'd prefer the leadership be established on a unit-by-unit basis.

Gotta agree with DeathKorp here.
The problem is, that in all honesty, Morale management on average costs around 100-200 pts when you want to be on the save side.
This is not neglieable, and if the whole army determines the morale as one, it adds basically nothing to it, instead what then is going to happen is Command Rerrolls and players save the cost for it.


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My fellow Commrades in arms, Warlords, Witches, Pirates and Mercs.

There is no denying that you are in a position that is, well Suboptimal, to say the least.

What if i could help you, No there is no catch, well other that i want your absolute consent and your signature, written in blood, no you won't end (all) as Chaos Spawn.


I've done it.
this is the complete IA13 List updated into 8th edition.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/flv64puyeht7jvu/Renegades%20and%20Heretics%20IA13%20Update..pdf?dl=0

Yes it is a bit rough around the edges.
At OP pls replace the Link.

Looks pretty good. I doubt GW or FW will do anything about our plight though, mostly because they don't care. Either way, this is balanced enough that it seems like most casual players shouldn't have any complaints about us using them.

Once again, I applaud you for your hard work.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Looks pretty good. I doubt GW or FW will do anything about our plight though, mostly because they don't care. Either way, this is balanced enough that it seems like most casual players shouldn't have any complaints about us using them.

Once again, I applaud you for your hard work.

Actually some stuff is still missing, like the pts of Rogue psykers.
But beyond that, i think it is a fair little index.

Rogue Psykers:

Since they are the Coven one 100 pts for 5 seemed appropriate:
Seemed, i did some deliberating however and decided that the Charachter Keyword on them is worth atleast 5pts.

So i am suggesting that we add it to their price to get 25 pts /rogue Psyker


Further: Let's talk Stratagems:

I'd imagine 1-2 Stratagems per Demagogue devotion would be appropriate. (6)

Approximately 1 Stratagem per Warplan. (3atm.)

1 Stratagem per Covenant. (4)

and maybee a bunch of general usefull Stratagems. (say 4)

So total Stratagem ammount 17.

________________________________

Beyond that:
Some experimental units and suggestions.
As said before, this is a IA13 rewrite, that means that some stuff that f.e. Vraksian armies had, is not featured.

The Artillery Tyrant f.e. demagogue is not fieldable so far and Apostate Priests are also not available.

Further, Sabre Weapon plattforms are missing as of yet, that said i think these might not be neccessary.

_____________________________________________

Have i missed anything? any more ideas? Thoughts?

I really don't like stratagems and that is one of the reasons I play R&H. I think it's something that should be let go, but that is just me.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I really don't like stratagems and that is one of the reasons I play R&H. I think it's something that should be let go, but that is just me.

Hm, i get where you are coming from, but i fear that without them we still will get rolled over. That said i planned to have a very specific kind of stratagem as in, restricted and less of the "i shoot now double the ammount of dakka" and more along the line of bonus mali system:

Other then that , any specific idea about the arty tyrant or the appostate priest?

Where is the tyrant in the IA13 codex?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Where is the tyrant in the IA13 codex?

He is vraks specific.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Rogue Psykers:

Since they are the Coven one 100 pts for 5 seemed appropriate:
Seemed, i did some deliberating however and decided that the Charachter Keyword on them is worth atleast 5pts.

So i am suggesting that we add it to their price to get 25 pts /rogue Psyker


Further: Let's talk Stratagems:

I'd imagine 1-2 Stratagems per Demagogue devotion would be appropriate. (6)

Approximately 1 Stratagem per Warplan. (3atm.)

1 Stratagem per Covenant. (4)

and maybee a bunch of general usefull Stratagems. (say 4)

So total Stratagem ammount 17.

________________________________

Beyond that:
Some experimental units and suggestions.
As said before, this is a IA13 rewrite, that means that some stuff that f.e. Vraksian armies had, is not featured.

The Artillery Tyrant f.e. demagogue is not fieldable so far and Apostate Priests are also not available.

Further, Sabre Weapon plattforms are missing as of yet, that said i think these might not be neccessary.

_____________________________________________

Have i missed anything? any more ideas? Thoughts?

Read it, love it. Good job.
I would make a few recommendations if I may.
War plans could be a formation. But not a major.
I think that for roiters shouldn’t have auto hitting frag grenades ( improvised explosives) and able to throw 3 at a time. Maybe have fire bombs that auto hit and a stratagem so they can all throw them.
Afew more psychic powers, 2 generic ones and 1 god specific, ie nurgle Marasma of petilesnce (sorry for spelling, -1 to hit, khorne fight or shoot twice, tezench teleport a unit, slannesh mind control.
Plague zombies can be poxwalkers ported from the deathguard codex since they have the rights for them already.

Beastmen and traitor guard please lol.

Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.

We definitely need stratagems if we want to be competitive and use the cp we can generate.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Rogue Psykers:

Since they are the Coven one 100 pts for 5 seemed appropriate:
Seemed, i did some deliberating however and decided that the Charachter Keyword on them is worth atleast 5pts.

So i am suggesting that we add it to their price to get 25 pts /rogue Psyker


Further: Let's talk Stratagems:

I'd imagine 1-2 Stratagems per Demagogue devotion would be appropriate. (6)

Approximately 1 Stratagem per Warplan. (3atm.)

1 Stratagem per Covenant. (4)

and maybee a bunch of general usefull Stratagems. (say 4)

So total Stratagem ammount 17.

________________________________

Beyond that:
Some experimental units and suggestions.
As said before, this is a IA13 rewrite, that means that some stuff that f.e. Vraksian armies had, is not featured.

The Artillery Tyrant f.e. demagogue is not fieldable so far and Apostate Priests are also not available.

Further, Sabre Weapon plattforms are missing as of yet, that said i think these might not be neccessary.

_____________________________________________

Have i missed anything? any more ideas? Thoughts?

Read it, love it. Good job.
I would make a few recommendations if I may.
War plans could be a formation. But not a major.
I think that for roiters shouldn’t have auto hitting frag grenades ( improvised explosives) and able to throw 3 at a time. Maybe have fire bombs that auto hit and a stratagem so they can all throw them.
Afew more psychic powers, 2 generic ones and 1 god specific, ie nurgle Marasma of petilesnce (sorry for spelling, -1 to hit, khorne fight or shoot twice, tezench teleport a unit, slannesh mind control.
Plague zombies can be poxwalkers ported from the deathguard codex since they have the rights for them already.

Beastmen and traitor guard please lol.

Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.

We definitely need stratagems if we want to be competitive and use the cp we can generate.

Shhhh come closer, see the entry on the militia? May purchase "militia Training"? And take a gander at the SV statistic.
Then do the math I'll bet you will like it.

The idea behind the rioteers is that they use incindiary nades / mollotovs. That is also why they are scared off vehicles.

Mutants (beastmen) , and if you feel fancy you can always go Mutant overlord and upgrade ogryns, disciples and command disciples. Also buy a covenant of Khorne and watch them rip and tear.

Plague zombies remain where they are. (4+ FNP for 3 pts)


___________________

Also would it make it too busy to add in dark mechanicacus? Repair the vehicles and the others from blackstone fortress.


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I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Also would it make it too busy to add in dark mechanicacus? Repair the vehicles and the others from blackstone fortress.


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I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol.

You mean that the arch demagogue heretek magos can repair vehicles?
I guess i could just pick up the rules from the warpsmith.

Not a fan of Blackstone units.

Militia can be upgraded with militia Training for 10 pts flat. A 10 man squad with militia Training is 4ppm guardsmen standart (well no orders but Commanders have auras now and covenants actually help them now.)
And if you go field 20 man blobs they cost 3.5 ppm.

Not to mention that war-plans would significantly boost their survivability compared to guardsmen or their offensive output.


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I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol

Honestly, Feedback is appreciated and I feel like especially for the heretek magos it would make sense that he could repair stuff.


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Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.

Seems a bit strong, however i would point out that we could go with the old daemonweapons.

say it grants the following S+1 ap-3 d3, however before you fight roll a d6 a result of one the carrier loses a wound, on 2+ he gains that many attacks.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Also would it make it too busy to add in dark mechanicacus? Repair the vehicles and the others from blackstone fortress.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol.

You mean that the arch demagogue heretek magos can repair vehicles?
I guess i could just pick up the rules from the warpsmith.

Not a fan of Blackstone units.

Militia can be upgraded with militia Training for 10 pts flat. A 10 man squad with militia Training is 4ppm guardsmen standart (well no orders but Commanders have auras now and covenants actually help them now.)
And if you go field 20 man blobs they cost 3.5 ppm.

Not to mention that war-plans would significantly boost their survivability compared to guardsmen or their offensive output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol

Honestly, Feedback is appreciated and I feel like especially for the heretek magos it would make sense that he could repair stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.

Seems a bit strong, however i would point out that we could go with the old daemonweapons.

say it grants the following S+1 ap-3 d3, however before you fight roll a d6 a result of one the carrier loses a wound, on 2+ he gains that many attacks.

Oh man I really need reread it with less children’s lol.
Sorry bro.
I think the flat upgrade for the militia is great as it would encourage larger units ina edition that favours msu.

Your right it op but just an idea for you to work with.

For Renegade Preachers, I was thinking have come in as a Preacher for the covenant your warlord has (so, it does nothing for "no-covenant armies") and give a bonus bases on that. This also gives a small incentive to have mono-god armies. I was also thinking that since Marauders are there for the money and don't care about the stuff the preachers are talking about, they should not be affected by the bonuses.

For bonuses I was thinking something like:

Preacher of Nurgle - All Renegade units you control with the Nurgle faction keyword within 6" of the preacher may reroll failed wound rolls once during the Fight Phase. In addition, any Infantry models that suffer an unsaved wound from these units take 1 mortal wound. This does not affect Marauders. (I tried to simulate plague weapons here)

Preacher of Tzeentch - All Renegade units with the Tzeentch faction keyword within 6" of the preacher hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch. In addition, these units may target character models during overwatch even if they are not the closest models. This does not affect marauders.

Preacher of Khorne - All Renegade units with the Khorne faction keyword within 6" of the preacher get +1 to their strength during the fight phase. In addition, these units may reroll failed hit rolls once during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.

Preacher of Slaanesh - All Renegade units with the Slaanesh faction keyword within 6" of the preacher can add 3" to their charge or advance. In addition, these units may make one additional attack during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
For Renegade Preachers, I was thinking have come in as a Preacher for the covenant your warlord has (so, it does nothing for "no-covenant armies") and give a bonus bases on that. This also gives a small incentive to have mono-god armies. I was also thinking that since Marauders are there for the money and don't care about the stuff the preachers are talking about, they should not be affected by the bonuses.

For bonuses I was thinking something like:

Preacher of Nurgle - All Renegade units you control with the Nurgle faction keyword within 6" of the preacher may reroll failed wound rolls once during the Fight Phase. In addition, any Infantry models that suffer an unsaved wound from these units take 1 mortal wound. This does not affect Marauders. (I tried to simulate plague weapons here)

Preacher of Tzeentch - All Renegade units with the Tzeentch faction keyword within 6" of the preacher hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch. In addition, these units may target character models during overwatch even if they are not the closest models. This does not affect marauders.

Preacher of Khorne - All Renegade units with the Khorne faction keyword within 6" of the preacher get +1 to their strength during the fight phase. In addition, these units may reroll failed hit rolls once during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.

Preacher of Slaanesh - All Renegade units with the Slaanesh faction keyword within 6" of the preacher can add 3" to their charge or advance. In addition, these units may make one additional attack during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.

Needs a like button here

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
For Renegade Preachers, I was thinking have come in as a Preacher for the covenant your warlord has (so, it does nothing for "no-covenant armies") and give a bonus bases on that. This also gives a small incentive to have mono-god armies. I was also thinking that since Marauders are there for the money and don't care about the stuff the preachers are talking about, they should not be affected by the bonuses.

For bonuses I was thinking something like:

Preacher of Nurgle - All Renegade units you control with the Nurgle faction keyword within 6" of the preacher may reroll failed wound rolls once during the Fight Phase. In addition, any Infantry models that suffer an unsaved wound from these units take 1 mortal wound. This does not affect Marauders. (I tried to simulate plague weapons here)

Preacher of Tzeentch - All Renegade units with the Tzeentch faction keyword within 6" of the preacher hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch. In addition, these units may target character models during overwatch even if they are not the closest models. This does not affect marauders.

Preacher of Khorne - All Renegade units with the Khorne faction keyword within 6" of the preacher get +1 to their strength during the fight phase. In addition, these units may reroll failed hit rolls once during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.

Preacher of Slaanesh - All Renegade units with the Slaanesh faction keyword within 6" of the preacher can add 3" to their charge or advance. In addition, these units may make one additional attack during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.

Great, Cheers, this is exactly what i wanted.

Updated OP with the new link. Been working nearly nonstop so I haven't had a chance to read anything, but will hopefully get to reading it tomorrow. Love the energy and enthusiasm in this thread!

For stats (going off a very old codex and comparing with the stats of current models) I was thinking:

M: 6" / BS: 4 / WS:4 / S:3 / T:3 / W:2 / A:2 / Ld: 8 / Sv: 5

- Renegade Apostate Preacher is equipped with a brutal assault weapon, frag grenades, and either an autopistol or laspistol.

- Wargear Options:
• this unit may replace its Autopistol or Laspistol with either an Autogun, Lasgun, shotgun, or another weapon from the R&H ranged weapon list.
• This unit may replace its brutal assault weapon with a weapon from the R&H melee weapon list.

Abilities:
• Chaos Covenent (A Renegade Apostate Preacher must choose the same covenant as the Archdemagogue, but costs no additional points. If the Archdemagogue does not have a covenant, this unit can not be included with your army.
• Refractor Field: This unit has a 5+ invulnerable save.

A 4+ sv?

I mean sure carapace should be an option but one that comes at a price.

The fixed ld of 8 is good albeit since he is a charachter he won't use it.

How about this, instead of melee weapons and to further diversify him from the regular priest.

Ritual blade:
S +1 ap - D 1 * carrier can attack one additional time with this weapon.

If the carrier kills a enemy model with this weapon, all units within 6" of him gain +1 S for the rest of the game?

I was putting his armor to be on par with a renegade commander

Oops, my mistake, it should be 5.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I was putting his armor to be on par with a renegade commander

Oops, my mistake, it should be 5.

Well 5 pts for all charachters.

Added the ritual blade as an idea above. Also toying around with letting the Khorne covenant take 2 of these.

Well, aside from the SV which I fixed, what is the opinion on it?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Well, aside from the SV which I fixed, what is the opinion on it?

Seems solid. With the covenant effects itself he is quite a gamechanger, but neither overly durable nor oppresive weapons wise.

I'd say 40 pts. / Priest?

Just to be cautious.

But i like it.

Granted some of the suggested auras seem to strong / to weak compared to each other, but nothing one can't fix.

I know about the differences in strength, but I was at a loss for ideas about benefits so I decided to make them somewhat extensions of the covenant and w/e else I could think of


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Also I noticed for the Hereteks-Magus, it doesn't tell you how much it costs to upgrade those units with the FNP.

Conceptually, I think I can agree that allied detachments can be overpowered, but unless there' some game-wide restriction or downside to it I'd be against imposing it against ourselves. I don't really believe in handicapping only myself. If the opponent agreed to use the same rule I suppose that would be fair if worked out properly.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Conceptually, I think I can agree that allied detachments can be overpowered, but unless there' some game-wide restriction or downside to it I'd be against imposing it against ourselves. I don't really believe in handicapping only myself. If the opponent agreed to use the same rule I suppose that would be fair if worked out properly.

A: it is one CP. (Basically no more picking the Leman russes or other IG vehicles for gaining CP and padding weaknesses. It should influence the choice to bigger R&H detachments.

B: This is mostly to basically intervene before the issues with soup show up.

C: I feel like it would be unfair to have the Brood Brothers restriction ingame but nithing vice versa for Chaos.

That said i marked it as a full on Betarule, in order to explorie it as an idea and can fully understand your issue with it.
Because why should you get the shorter pike then your enemy in a match.



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DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I know about the differences in strength, but I was at a loss for ideas about benefits so I decided to make them somewhat extensions of the covenant and w/e else I could think of


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Also I noticed for the Hereteks-Magus, it doesn't tell you how much it costs to upgrade those units with the FNP.

Ooopps, forgot to add the pricetag. (10pts. /per squad, yes it is another flat upgrade. ) will later bring up a bit better edited and updated list.