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A friend of mine was telling me about a rules dispute he had the other day. At first I thought it was clear, but now I'm not so sure so I'm making this post so it can be discussed. I think it's likely to come up and cause some debate for others.

A GSC player used Mind Control to take over an Imperial Knight. The GSC player then tried to make a shooting attack. My friend, the IK player, claimed that the GSC player could not make a shooting attack with the IK because there was another unit within 1" of the IK.

RAW - All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models.
RAW - In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit.

So... Can the IK shoot the unit within 1" of it?

The mind controlled knight shoots in the psychic phase. The psychic power doesnt mention that the mind controlled unit shoots as if its the shooting phase. Therefore any restrictions of the shooting phase dont apply. Another way to look at it is that the knight remains an enemy model, which shoots another enemy model. Therefore the restriction that a friendly unit cant target an enemy unit within 1" of it doesnt apply. Both units are enemy units, the psychic power gives you special permission to target it.

The Mind Controlled Knight is temporarily part of the GSC Army. If within 1" of any non-GSC Army model, it's can't shoot as it is within 1" of an enemy model.

Time to tap dance on their head with Titanic Feet.

 alextroy wrote:
The Mind Controlled Knight is temporarily part of the GSC Army. If within 1" of any non-GSC Army model, it's can't shoot as it is within 1" of an enemy model.

No, its not. It doesnt change to a friendly model. The psychic power gives it special permission to shoot another enemy model. And because its not the shooting phase any restrictions of that phase dont apply.

You're right p5freak. The wording of Mind Control allows the affected model to shoot regardless of range to it's friendly units. It can even shoot it's own unit!

Depends on if the model belong to the ik player or gsc player. If it was a gsc model then the knight was within 1" of an enemy model.

Mind Control (RAW) - If manifested, select an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll 3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.

So the IK does become a 'friendly model' for the GSC player as Mind Control states "...as if it were part of your army". The unit within 1" of the IK are now enemy models.

Once again it comes down to GWs sloppy writing and what exactly "as if" means. I would say that you could not shoot because you're within 1" of a model "not in" your army.

It's not the shooting phase, so why are you following the rules about selecting a unit to shoot which is found in the shooting phase?

 oni wrote:
Mind Control (RAW) - If manifested, select an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll 3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.

So the IK does become a 'friendly model' for the GSC player as Mind Control states "...as if it were part of your army". The unit within 1" of the IK are now enemy models.

Ok, so the mind controlled unit is a friendly model. But its not shooting in the shooting phase. Therefore any restrictions of the shooting phase dont apply. You could target a character, even if its not the closest visible model.

Pretty sure GW have faqed somewhere that shooting "as if" the shooting phase keeps the character rule (but then says the opposite regarding the movement phase so who knows anymore).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Pretty sure GW have faqed somewhere that shooting "as if" the shooting phase keeps the character rule (but then says the opposite regarding the movement phase so who knows anymore).

Yes, GW did clarify that in the FAQs. But the mind controlled unit doesnt shoot "as if its the shooting phase". Thus, it shoots in the psychic phase.

Mind Control (RAW) - If manifested, select an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll 3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.

OK, so we agree that it's the misapplication of Shooting Phase rules.

Unless of course GW releases an errata changing the wording to include "as if it were the shooting phase".

Also you're given permission to shoot "another enemy unit of your choice" without qualifiers in that statement about them not being within 1" of the model you're mind controlling.

 p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Mind Controlled Knight is temporarily part of the GSC Army. If within 1" of any non-GSC Army model, it's can't shoot as it is within 1" of an enemy model.

No, its not. It doesnt change to a friendly model. The psychic power gives it special permission to shoot another enemy model. And because its not the shooting phase any restrictions of that phase dont apply.

I gotta disagree here (but I'm just as lost as everyone else on applying the shooting phase rules). The spell says the unit shoots "as if it were part of your army", so I would say it gets treated like part of your army for all intents and purposes until the spell ends.

It's somewhat disenginous to say it doesn't follow the rules for the shooting phase when making a shooting attack.

Correct the shooting does not occur during the shooting phase, it occurs during the psychic phase. However the only rules within the game for shooting are those within the shooting phase section of the book, if you want to claim that it doesn't follow the rules for shooting in the shooting phase then the power is unresolvable as there are no rules for shooting in the psychic phase.

Which weapons to fire, line of sight, selecting targets, rolling to hit, rolling to wound, saves, casualty removals from shooting are all rules found in the shooting phase section of the rulebook.

Or you can applying the shooting phase rules to the shooting attack it makes in the psychic phase.

It's like saying you can use forewarning to shoot at a character that landed out of Line sight and further away than other units because the shooting attack is happening during your opponents movement phase. It makes no sense.

 oni wrote:
Mind Control (RAW) - If manifested, select an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll 3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.

So the IK does become a 'friendly model' for the GSC player as Mind Control states "...as if it were part of your army". The unit within 1" of the IK are now enemy models.

Can someone confirm this is the exact wording of the power as that's definataly in need of an FAQ as thats OP as fefth for the casting value on shooting focus vehicals.

Going back over the rules for shooting, I must conclude that if the Mind Controlled model (temporary GCS model) is within 1" of an enemy model (the former friendly models), he cannot shoot unless he uses a Pistol or other weapon he is allowed fire while within 1" of an enemy model. The rules for Shooting (not the Shooting Phase, but Shooting in general) forbid firing while your unit is within 1" of enemy models. You are however free to target characters since you are not "Shooting as if the Shooting Phase" and are therefore free of any Shooting Phase restrictions on targeting.

Similarly, he can't fire at now-enemy models that are within 1" of now friendly models, unless he has a weapon that allows such an attack.

So, when playing against GSC, keep another model within 1" of your models with good shooting attacks.

What you are saying makes no sense. You can't cherry pick what restrictions apply and which don't. Not being able to shoot if within 1" of an enemy model is a restriction, just like targeting characters is. Either both apply or both don't apply.

Definitely agree with p5freak here.

Mind Control, since the index, has been played as though it doesn't follow Shooting Phase restrictions because it does not say "As if it were the Shooting Phase."

If people agree that it does not follow those restrictions in such a way that the model is allowed to target Characters, there is no reason it would be restricted to melee when within 1 inch of another unit/model.

Are we just ignoring that the rule specifically points out that a model can target its own unit? It's own unit is definitely within 1" of itself.

 EnTyme wrote:
Are we just ignoring that the rule specifically points out that a model can target its own unit? It's own unit is definitely within 1" of itself.

Are we ignoring that mind control says that models can't attack themselves ?

I never said they could.

 p5freak wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Are we just ignoring that the rule specifically points out that a model can target its own unit? It's own unit is definitely within 1" of itself.

Are we ignoring that mind control says that models can't attack themselves ?

A model attacking other models in its unit is not the same as a model attacking itself.

If the model is not within 1” of another model in the unit, he can shoot at them. Otherwise he can make a melee Attack, so it is not really relevant.

 alextroy wrote:
If the model is not within 1” of another model in the unit, he can shoot at them. Otherwise he can make a melee Attack, so it is not really relevant.

Looks like he can make a shooting attack at them too even if he is within 1" because it's not in the shooting phase, so doesn't follow the same restrictions.

Everyone... solves this

1.
Mind control a guardman in 10 men squad..
Shoot at other guardman within same unit as this enemy guardman.. that mean it’s 0.01”, and it’s legit.

2.
You mind control this same guardman in 10 men squad..
Shoot at officer who are within 1” of this unit but some of you say it’s illegit.

What the different between this? And remember this “ shooting” is psyker attack not shooting attack.

IMO if you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of shooting attacks. You can't pick and choose which apply and which don't. So if you mind control an enemy model it is treated as being one of your units for the purposes of the power. If you choose to make a shooting attack you follow all the rules for shooting attacks and the restrictions there in. Because it counts as your model if there is another enemy model within 1 inch of it then you are prohibited from shooting unless you have a pistol. You can make a melee attack against it just fine though.

No you could not use this to target characters because you still follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you think otherwise please tell me how you are going to resolve a shooting attack without using the shooting attack rules and restrictions which character targeting falls under.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
IMO if you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of shooting attacks. You can't pick and choose which apply and which don't. So if you mind control an enemy model it is treated as being one of your units for the purposes of the power. If you choose to make a shooting attack you follow all the rules for shooting attacks and the restrictions there in. Because it counts as your model if there is another enemy model within 1 inch of it then you are prohibited from shooting unless you have a pistol. You can make a melee attack against it just fine though.

No you could not use this to target characters because you still follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you think otherwise please tell me how you are going to resolve a shooting attack without using the shooting attack rules and restrictions which character targeting falls under.

It is Psyker attack. All “shooting” and “close combat” count as psyker attack in Psyker phase and using Psyker rule instead of shooting rule or fighting rule. Until GW fix this.

Solidcrash wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
IMO if you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of shooting attacks. You can't pick and choose which apply and which don't. So if you mind control an enemy model it is treated as being one of your units for the purposes of the power. If you choose to make a shooting attack you follow all the rules for shooting attacks and the restrictions there in. Because it counts as your model if there is another enemy model within 1 inch of it then you are prohibited from shooting unless you have a pistol. You can make a melee attack against it just fine though.

No you could not use this to target characters because you still follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you think otherwise please tell me how you are going to resolve a shooting attack without using the shooting attack rules and restrictions which character targeting falls under.

It is Psyker attack. All “shooting” and “close combat” count as psyker attack in Psyker phase and using Psyker rule instead of shooting rule or fighting rule. Until GW fix this.

Say what? Were dies the rule book say such a thing?