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Tibs Ironblood wrote: IMO if you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of shooting attacks. You can't pick and choose which apply and which don't. So if you mind control an enemy model it is treated as being one of your units for the purposes of the power. If you choose to make a shooting attack you follow all the rules for shooting attacks and the restrictions there in. Because it counts as your model if there is another enemy model within 1 inch of it then you are prohibited from shooting unless you have a pistol. You can make a melee attack against it just fine though.
No you could not use this to target characters because you still follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you think otherwise please tell me how you are going to resolve a shooting attack without using the shooting attack rules and restrictions which character targeting falls under.
It is Psyker attack. All “shooting” and “close combat” count as psyker attack in Psyker phase and using Psyker rule instead of shooting rule or fighting rule. Until GW fix this.
Say what? Were dies the rule book say such a thing?
Broodmind Discipline - Mind Control, in GSC Codex + Psychic Phase in Core rule. I treat it as just like Smite.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: IMO if you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of shooting attacks. You can't pick and choose which apply and which don't. So if you mind control an enemy model it is treated as being one of your units for the purposes of the power. If you choose to make a shooting attack you follow all the rules for shooting attacks and the restrictions there in. Because it counts as your model if there is another enemy model within 1 inch of it then you are prohibited from shooting unless you have a pistol. You can make a melee attack against it just fine though.
No you could not use this to target characters because you still follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you think otherwise please tell me how you are going to resolve a shooting attack without using the shooting attack rules and restrictions which character targeting falls under.
It is Psyker attack. All “shooting” and “close combat” count as psyker attack in Psyker phase and using Psyker rule instead of shooting rule or fighting rule. Until GW fix this.
What on earth are you even talking about? That does not make any sense at all and to my knowledge has no basing in the rules whatsoever.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: IMO if you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of shooting attacks. You can't pick and choose which apply and which don't. So if you mind control an enemy model it is treated as being one of your units for the purposes of the power. If you choose to make a shooting attack you follow all the rules for shooting attacks and the restrictions there in. Because it counts as your model if there is another enemy model within 1 inch of it then you are prohibited from shooting unless you have a pistol. You can make a melee attack against it just fine though.
No you could not use this to target characters because you still follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you think otherwise please tell me how you are going to resolve a shooting attack without using the shooting attack rules and restrictions which character targeting falls under.
It is Psyker attack. All “shooting” and “close combat” count as psyker attack in Psyker phase and using Psyker rule instead of shooting rule or fighting rule. Until GW fix this.
Say what? Were dies the rule book say such a thing?
Broodmind Discipline - Mind Control, in GSC Codex + Psychic Phase in Core rule. I treat it as just like Smite.
I'm not following that, the psychic phase in the rule book doesn't say anything about the power suddenly making a shooting attack become a psychic attack just because the shooting attack is the result of a psychic power, by that logic Yannari shoot again actions arn't bound by shooting phase rules, that not how anyone plays those rules.
This just makes the GSC codex sound like the jankiest half done mess that's going to screw up the game for 2019.
I can't decide if its GW or just players doing rules lawyering mental gymnastics but it's not good either way.
Broodmind Discipline - Mind Control, in GSC Codex did not put “count as shooting phase” or “ count as fighting phase”
It is the model immediately makes a single ranged or melee attack against another enemy unit while still in Psyker phase using Psyker.
Compare that with any other count as shooting phase or count as fighting phase.
It is Psyker attack instead within Psyker phase.
Can you use Shooting rule in movement phase outside of shooting phase? Can you use shooting rule in fighting phase outside of Shooting phase? Can you fighting without count as fighting phase?
You are break the rule unless it is count as ____ phase.
Solidcrash wrote: Broodmind Discipline - Mind Control, in GSC Codex did not put “count as shooting phase” or “ count as fighting phase”
It is the model immediately makes a single ranged or melee attack against another enemy unit while still in Psyker phase using Psyker.
Compare that with any other count as shooting phase or count as fighting phase.
It is Psyker attack instead within Psyker phase.
Can you use Shooting rule in movement phase outside of shooting phase? Can you use shooting rule in fighting phase outside of Shooting phase? Can you fighting without count as fighting phase?
You are break the rule unless it is count as ____ phase.
If you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you do not do this then are incapable of performing a ranged attack as there are no rules for shooting a weapon within the psychic phase. So either the power is literally worthless or it does in effect operate as if it were the shooting or fight phase.
Solidcrash wrote: Broodmind Discipline - Mind Control, in GSC Codex did not put “count as shooting phase” or “ count as fighting phase”
It is the model immediately makes a single ranged or melee attack against another enemy unit while still in Psyker phase using Psyker.
Compare that with any other count as shooting phase or count as fighting phase.
It is Psyker attack instead within Psyker phase.
Can you use Shooting rule in movement phase outside of shooting phase? Can you use shooting rule in fighting phase outside of Shooting phase? Can you fighting without count as fighting phase?
You are break the rule unless it is count as ____ phase.
If you make a shooting attack you follow the rules and restrictions of the shooting phase. If you do not do this then are incapable of performing a ranged attack as there are no rules for shooting a weapon within the psychic phase. So either the power is literally worthless or it does in effect operate as if it were the shooting or fight phase.
Yes that right. Either it cannot shoot or fight at all or it can shoot through the walls because there are no shooting phase rule.
Silly, I know. Rule is Rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just don’t shoot through the walls. Just. Don’t.
This how you will lose a friend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/23 00:44:40
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote:1. Choose Unit to Shoot With In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit. Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with. After all of the unit’s models have fired, you can choose another unit to shoot with, until all eligible units that you want to shoot with have done so.
Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules wrote: Characters Some models are noted as being a Character on their datasheet. These heroes, officers, prophets and warlords are powerful individuals that can have a great impact on the course of a battle. The swirling maelstrom of the battlefield can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets, however. A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. This does not apply to Characters with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size.
Please note that the restriction on Shooting when your unit is within 1" of an enemy unit is not a Shooting Phase restriction, it is a Shooting restriction. That's why you get FAQ rulings like:
WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES Official Update Version 1.3 wrote:Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol.
You can target a character when shooting outside of the shooting phase because :
Q: Can a unit fire Overwatch at a Character if, when it
declares its charge at them, there are other visible enemy models
that are closer?
A: Yes.
Overwatch is shooting done in the charge phase.
Q: If I use a Stratagem such as Auspex Scan or Forewarned
to shoot with a unit ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’, does the
restriction on not being able to target an enemy Character
with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less apply, even though
that Stratagem is being used in the Movement phase?
A: Yes.
This clarifies that the restriction of targeting an character only applies as if its the shooting phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/23 06:37:53
Throwing my own question here as is related.
Dies a unit that has been Mind Controlled benefit from the owning players buffs?
Recently had an Exorcist mind Controlled within range of my reroll 1s to hit Cannoness. Opponent claimed that it benefited from the reroll buff.
If it counts as part of your army, do you normally use enemy model’s buffs? You got done, there.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
The restriction on units within 1" of enemy units is when selecting a unit to shoot.
That step doesn't exist here since the unit is already selected automatically when the power is completed successfully.
You still have to follow the rules for selecting a target (character rules) but the knight could still shoot any other unit including those within 1" because nothing in the shooting rules prevents it besides the aforementioned selecting a unit rules which as mentioned dont apply because they are skipped.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Yep, selecting a unit to shoot doesn't apply here, at all.
1) you never select a UNIT you select a model
2) the model was already selected as it was the psychic power doing it
3) as pointed out already the rule gives you permission to shoot members of your own unit, which could be in base contact.
Feel free to shoot a unit / model within 1", including a sub 10w character, as there are no shooting phase restriction listed inc the power.
We do have to apply SOME restrictions to the shooting attack though?
Like weapon range, line of sight...
These restrictions also come from the 'Choose Target' section of the shooting phase exclusively. If we just skip that entire selection process (part 2 of the shooting phase), than neither of these would have to be followed either.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/25 14:53:27
HMint wrote: We do have to apply SOME restrictions to the shooting attack though?
Like weapon range, line of sight...
These restrictions also come from the 'Choose Target' section of the shooting phase exclusively. If we just skip that entire selection process (part 2 of the shooting phase), than neither of these would have to be followed either.
Mind Control - If manifested, select an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll 3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.
The Mind Control Power gives you explicit permission to shoot another enemy unit "of your choice". It did not put limitations on whether the unit is within 1" or not.
HMint wrote: We do have to apply SOME restrictions to the shooting attack though?
Like weapon range, line of sight...
These restrictions also come from the 'Choose Target' section of the shooting phase exclusively. If we just skip that entire selection process (part 2 of the shooting phase), than neither of these would have to be followed either.
Mind Control - If manifested, select an enemy model within 12" of the psyker and roll 3D6. If the score is less than that model's Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it, as if it were part of your army. Models cannot attack themselves, but they can attack other members of their unit.
The Mind Control Power gives you explicit permission to shoot another enemy unit "of your choice". It did not put limitations on whether the unit is within 1" or not.
It also doesn't say you can not shoot that 50" away character on the other side of a mountain with a standard meltagun is what I am getting at...
Taget selection all still applies. Just the rules for which model/unit is shooting is skipped. You still pick a weapon. Select a target in range. Roll dice.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
And they’ve explained which is the correct one in the comments on FB, your thread got locked, and no one is actually confused anymore. Stop trying to confuse people.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
If the score is less than that model’s Leadership characteristic, nothing happens, but if it equals or exceeds it, that model can either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or make a single close combat attack as if it were the Fight phase. In either case, treat that model as if it were a separate unit that is part of your army whilst shooting or making that close combat attack.
I'm assuming the character rules are intended to apply, at least.
Didn't bother to clarify if you're intended to be able to shoot while in melee (as long as the target is not engaging you, of course), unfortunately, so we're still left with selecting a unit with a psychic power (rather than in the normal way, which is where all the "can't shoot" conditions are) and the confusion that causes.
Fragile wrote: You cant shoot while in melee range. You can make a melee attack though.
A unit cannot be selected if it is within 1", true.
However
You've already selected the unit. You don't follow the first rule because Ying have no 7nit to select any longer.
This sounds awfully like that argument from last year (?), saying that pistols can't actually be fired within 1", because you can never select the unit to begin with.
Only this time it's the other way around and we can fire everything regardless?
HMint wrote: This sounds awfully like that argument from last year (?), saying that pistols can't actually be fired within 1", because you can never select the unit to begin with.
Only this time it's the other way around and we can fire everything regardless?
Did we (or GW) ever resolve that pistol thing?
They never really understood what the player's were complaining about, given most people played it RAI instead of busted RAW.
The rulebook FAQ does certainly imply that the only weapons that can be used when within 1 inch is pistols.
I don't have books to hand to check the pistol rules.
BaconCatBug wrote: Be aware that GW are incompetent and released two FAQs with the same version number. One nerfs Mind Control the other nerfs Mental Onslaught
This is not a problem for anyone except you and in no way contributes to the discussion at hand.
It still looks to me as if this is pretty much undefined as we don't really have a fully defined procedure for what it means to make a shooting attack, certainly as far as whether already targeting a model counts as "selecting a unit to fire" and therefore bypasses the 1" rule. My gut instinct is it doesn't and if the model is within 1" of a friendly model (which is now an enemy model) it can either fire its pistol or make a close combat attack. I admit the rules aren't exactly clear either way though.
BaconCatBug wrote: Be aware that GW are incompetent and released two FAQs with the same version number. One nerfs Mind Control the other nerfs Mental Onslaught
This is not a problem for anyone except you and in no way contributes to the discussion at hand.
It still looks to me as if this is pretty much undefined as we don't really have a fully defined procedure for what it means to make a shooting attack, certainly as far as whether already targeting a model counts as "selecting a unit to fire" and therefore bypasses the 1" rule. My gut instinct is it doesn't and if the model is within 1" of a friendly model (which is now an enemy model) it can either fire its pistol or make a close combat attack. I admit the rules aren't exactly clear either way though.
The fact that the rules for pistols explicitly state that "A model may fire a pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of it's own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit.
Does imply that the general RAI is no shooting anything but pistols within 1 inch without a special rule.
The FAQ now states "as if it were your shooting phase" it also clarifies that the Mind Control[led] model counts as part of the GSC's army.
It's now clear that if there is a unit withing 1" of the Mind Control[led] model that the firing attack must be a Pistol weapon or else it cannot shoot. Additionally, because it's now "as if it were your shooting phase" the GSC player cannot choose CHARACTER units with less than 10 wounds unless they are the closest.
Also sort of buffed it so that it can fire at multiple units if it has multiple weapons, as before it could only target a single unit no matter how many weapons it had.
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
The FAQ now states "as if it were your shooting phase" it also clarifies that the Mind Control[led] model counts as part of the GSC's army.
It's now clear that if there is a unit withing 1" of the Mind Control[led] model that the firing attack must be a Pistol weapon or else it cannot shoot. Additionally, because it's now "as if it were your shooting phase" the GSC player cannot choose CHARACTER units with less than 10 wounds unless they are the closest.
I disagree. Also that means unless your opponent is spreading out their models in their units to at minimum 51% capacity on staying in coherency that it's basically impossible to ever have a model shoot anything.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
