GSC They Came From Below Strategem

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**tag8833**

My question is: Are units placed into Cult Ambush during deployment that are then moved to "Underground" via They Came From Below... able to arrive on the battlefield during the 1st battle round?

Appropriate rules quotes below

From the GSC Codex:

The Came from Below...
Use this Strategem before you reveal an ambush marker. Select up to 3 units (excluding VEHICLES) from your army that are set up in ambush. For each unit that you select, remove one ambush marker from the battlefield. The selected units are no longer set up in ambush are are instead set up underground as described in the Cult Ambush ability

Cult Ambush
...
When you set up a unit underground, it can emerge at the end of any of your Movement phases - set the unit up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from enemy models.
...

From the GSC FAQ:

Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used once the battle has started.

From the Big FAQ:

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

**BaconCatBug**

Yes, they can arrive turn 1.

"units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round." A unit that was placed in Ambush (as per the Errata, assuming this is the correct FAQ) states "‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes of Tactical Reserves.’", so they start the turn on the battlefield, so are not off the battlefield during deployment, thus are not limited by Tactical Reserves.

**HMint**

I agree, there is really no other way to read this.
Especially as they go so far as to point this mechanic out in the FAQ for the stratagem.

And I am also absolutely sure that they did not intent this, with the way they tried to remove any and all turn 1 shocks from the game. Major fail.
So do we just play by the rules until the next FAQ comes around then?

**Niiai**

Yeah. I assume so.

**Stux**

Yup, this is clearly the RAW. At least for now.

For what it is worth, this feels like something that will get FAQd. But until it does, these are the rules.

**Niiai**

I don't know. Is it so different then the orks pulling of da jump? I mean, if we want to use a perfect ambush turn 1 to 3, that are 10 CP. Pluss some CP for re-rolling charges,

**Banville**

HMint wrote:
I agree, there is really no other way to read this.
Especially as they go so far as to point this mechanic out in the FAQ for the stratagem.

And I am also absolutely sure that they did not intent this, with the way they tried to remove any and all turn 1 shocks from the game. Major fail.
So do we just play by the rules until the next FAQ comes around then?

It's absolutely intentional. For all the reasons you've listed above.

**tag8833**

HMint wrote:
I agree, there is really no other way to read this.
Especially as they go so far as to point this mechanic out in the FAQ for the stratagem.

And I am also absolutely sure that they did not intent this, with the way they tried to remove any and all turn 1 shocks from the game. Major fail.
So do we just play by the rules until the next FAQ comes around then?

That was exactly my thinking, but it seems like the GSC FAQ just doubled down on it, instead of removing it. It feels WAY too gamey to be intentional, but sometimes GW just goes with obvious mistakes, and lets them ride. For instance 72" on the serpent shield for 3-4 years.

**tneva82**

Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no

**Stux**

tneva82 wrote:
Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no

Oh, that's a very good point!

From the FAQ:

Q: In regards to ambush markers and revealing them, what is the
correct order if one player has other interactions that would take
place at the same time (e.g. Dark Matter Crystal)?
A: Revealing ambush markers is the final step, after all
other ‘end of the Movement phase’ interactions have
been completed.

So by the time you use the Strat, it's too late for them to arrive from Underground, they have to wait for turn 2 anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're going second...

**Banville**

Stux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no

Oh, that's a very good point!

From the FAQ:

Q: In regards to ambush markers and revealing them, what is the
correct order if one player has other interactions that would take
place at the same time (e.g. Dark Matter Crystal)?
A: Revealing ambush markers is the final step, after all
other ‘end of the Movement phase’ interactions have
been completed.

So by the time you use the Strat, it's too late for them to arrive from Underground, they have to wait for turn 2 anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're going second...

Other interactions aren't happening, though. The blips are revealed at the start of your movement phase, not the end.

**tneva82**

Are you sure? That faq entry makes no sense if they are revealed at the end(unless there is difference in revealing your and enemy turns)

Dunno. Don't have codex and that is rule not quoted

**Stux**

tneva82 wrote:
Are you sure? That faq entry makes no sense if they are revealed at the end(unless there is difference in revealing your and enemy turns)

Dunno. Don't have codex and that is rule not quoted

Luckily I do!

If you go first it's start of the movement phase. If you go second, it's end of the opponent's movement phase.

So that FAQ only applies if you go second actually, in which case it's not your movement phase and you're free to deploy them in your turn from Underground.

**Cephalobeard**

Banville wrote:
Stux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no

Oh, that's a very good point!

From the FAQ:

Q: In regards to ambush markers and revealing them, what is the
correct order if one player has other interactions that would take
place at the same time (e.g. Dark Matter Crystal)?
A: Revealing ambush markers is the final step, after all
other ‘end of the Movement phase’ interactions have
been completed.

So by the time you use the Strat, it's too late for them to arrive from Underground, they have to wait for turn 2 anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're going second...

Other interactions aren't happening, though. The blips are revealed at the start of your movement phase, not the end.

Start of your movement phase, end of opponents movement phase.

The distinction matters.

**Banville**

Yep. Blips are revealed at the start of the GSC player's movement phase, if they're going first. If the GSC player is going second they're revealed at the end of the opponent's movement phase. The strat kicks in as the blips are revealed.

**tneva82**

Ok then guess answer is yes except for certain individual who will likely claim faq makes no such distinction and ergo replaces whole rule with net

**Niiai**

Either way it works by raw.

**tneva82**

Untill you have raw nut claim there is no more start of turn reveal as faq makes no such claim and just says reveals are after end of move phase

But normal people will be t1 assaulting unless gw changes wordings. Got to kees in mind

**Banville**

tneva82 wrote:
Untill you have raw nut claim there is no more start of turn reveal as faq makes no such claim and just says reveals are after end of move phase

But normal people will be t1 assaulting unless gw changes wordings. Got to kees in mind

That FAQ answer is in response to a very specific question, though. I know people are grizzling over what is a very cheap way to potentially get off a first turn charge/chaff removal but the rule seems to be written and operates exactly as intended. The FAQ even underlines the fact that blips are considered deployed.

Weird, I know, but it seems pretty cut-and-dried.

**Timeshadow**

Hopefully we will get a definitive answer to this before April as I have an ITC tournament 13-14th and will be playing my GSC. If this is true I plan to being all the revelant FAQ's printed out and speak with the tourny judges before the game to be 100% sure.

**▇ ▇ ▇**

T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.

1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.

**Banville**

▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:
T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.

1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.

Why wouldn't that work if the GSC player goes first?

**tneva82**

▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:
T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.

1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.

If they count as being deployed on board then it works either way. GSC goes first, start of movement phase blips are revealed(barring mr. "I play RAW 100% despite it being provenly impossible" claiming that FAQ overwrote blip reveal turns so that they are now always revealed at the end of movement regardless of whose turn it is) so you use TCFB removing 3 units. Then end of movement you bring them back

**Thepatriarch**

Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.

**Banville**

Thepatriarch wrote:
Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.

It says use it WHEN you reveal ambush markers. And you do that at the beginning of the GSC player's Movement phase T1, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's movement phase, if they're going 1st.

**▇ ▇ ▇**

tneva82 wrote:
▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:
T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.

1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.

If they count as being deployed on board then it works either way. GSC goes first, start of movement phase blips are revealed(barring mr. "I play RAW 100% despite it being provenly impossible" claiming that FAQ overwrote blip reveal turns so that they are now always revealed at the end of movement regardless of whose turn it is) so you use TCFB removing 3 units. Then end of movement you bring them back

Yes, you are actually on point. So it can be considered as 1 CP Da Jump for 3 units.

**Thepatriarch**

Banville wrote:
Thepatriarch wrote:
Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.

It says use it WHEN you reveal ambush markers. And you do that at the beginning of the GSC player's Movement phase T1, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's movement phase, if they're going 1st.

Please point out where it says when?

https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/gsc-they-came-from-below.jpg

**Banville**

Thepatriarch wrote:
Banville wrote:
Thepatriarch wrote:
Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.

It says use it WHEN you reveal ambush markers. And you do that at the beginning of the GSC player's Movement phase T1, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's movement phase, if they're going 1st.

Please point out where it says when?

https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/gsc-they-came-from-below.jpg

I stand corrected. It still has no material impact, though, because the blips are revealed at the start of your movement or the end of your opponent's. You can't start shuffling blips around the board.

**tneva82**

▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:
T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.

1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.

If they count as being deployed on board then it works either way. GSC goes first, start of movement phase blips are revealed(barring mr. "I play RAW 100% despite it being provenly impossible" claiming that FAQ overwrote blip reveal turns so that they are now always revealed at the end of movement regardless of whose turn it is) so you use TCFB removing 3 units. Then end of movement you bring them back

Yes, you are actually on point. So it can be considered as 1 CP Da Jump for 3 units.

Yup. More than 3x as powerful as da jump/etc for 1CP. Neat ability if GW doesn't say otherwise.

**Thepatriarch**

Cult ambush used to be exempt from the tactical reserve rules. GSC being better at infiltration/deepstriking made perfect sense considering the lore/fluff. Giving GSC 3 units to deepstrike in turn 1 for 1 CP makes much more sense then Necrons/Orcs being able to deepstrike in turn 1 when GSC can't, and is actually a good balance between being able to deepstrike half your army in T1, or no units at all.