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"They are no longer setup in ambush and are now Setup underground"

They are no longer deployed to the table are now deployed to reserves.

So yes actually it does change where they were deployed.

blaktoof wrote:
"They are no longer setup in ambush and are now Setup underground"

They are no longer deployed to the table are now deployed to reserves.

So yes actually it does change where they were deployed.

How is this so difficult!

No longer means from this point forward. It does NOT in any way whatsoever change the fact it was DEPLOYED on the battlefield. The stratagem doesn't even say "deployed" it says "set up". Once again you are making up rules.

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Yep and the stratagem changes where they count as having been during deployment as they are now setup underground instead of setup to ambush once the stratagem is played. Hence the use of the words setup for both ambush and underground, it changes where the unit was deployed.

This wording is nothing like burrow for mawloc or skyleap for swooping Hawks which deals with units entering reserves from being setup on the table.

Much like rules that can modify if an unit moved previously or not for current rules.

No, it really doesn't. It changes where they are now. Nowhere does it say it changes where they were in the past. It says 'no longer'. Not 'they count as always having been deployed underground'. You're making that bit up.

I have quoted the no longer part to him clearly indicating they were deployed before, he is either arguing in bad faith or to stupid to understand it.

So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.

blaktoof wrote:
So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.

No. I'm saying "deployed" and "set up" are, obviously, different.

Thepatriarch wrote:

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Yep and the stratagem changes where they count as having been during deployment as they are now setup underground instead of setup to ambush once the stratagem is played. Hence the use of the words setup for both ambush and underground, it changes where the unit was deployed.

This wording is nothing like burrow for mawloc or skyleap for swooping Hawks which deals with units entering reserves from being setup on the table.

Much like rules that can modify if an unit moved previously or not for current rules.

Oh I understand your point, you just don't seem to grasp mine. I am qouting the text of the rule that says the unit is no longer setup in ambush and is instead setup underground. You seem to think it carries the original state with it, while I argue if it no longer is setup there and is instead setup somewhere else when you use the stratagem, per it's actual rules text, then for rules purposes it counts as if you deployed underground not deployed in ambush.

It's not necessary to insult someone because they think your argument based on intent is incorrect.

I'm starting to remember why I stopped visiting this board.

It indisputably carries the state of where it WAS deployed, because there is nothing in the rule that changes that.

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.

No. I'm saying "deployed" and "set up" are, obviously, different.

I suggest revisiting the rules for tactical reserves and deployment and note the use of set up when used with where units can be deployed to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:
It indisputably carries the state of where it WAS deployed, because there is nothing in the rule that changes that.

Other then where the rule tells us the unit is no longer considered to e deployed to the table and now is considered deployed to reserves of course.

So if you are no longer under age you were never under age?

blaktoof wrote:

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.

No. I'm saying "deployed" and "set up" are, obviously, different.

I suggest revisiting the rules for tactical reserves and deployment and note the use of set up when used with where units can be deployed to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:
It indisputably carries the state of where it WAS deployed, because there is nothing in the rule that changes that.

Other then where the rule tells us the unit is no longer considered to e deployed to the table and now is considered deployed to reserves of course.

Oh my goodness... Going in circles again.

It DOESNT say that. It doesn't say deployed, it says setup. That is totally different.

Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased re-read tactical reserves and note how it uses setup and locations units can be put during deployment.

This stratagem is directly modifying that state during deployment when you use it from the wording no longer setup in ambush, instead setup underground.

blaktoof wrote:
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.

Source?

Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.

Unit is deployed in ambush.

Game begins.

Time to reveal Blip.

Play strat.

Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.

Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.

C'est tout.

Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.

blaktoof wrote:
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.

No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.

Banville wrote:
Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.

Unit is deployed in ambush.

Game begins.

Time to reveal Blip.

Play strat.

Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.

Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.

C'est tout.

Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.

Once you play the strat the unit was no longer deployed to the board.

blaktoof wrote:

Banville wrote:
Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.

Unit is deployed in ambush.

Game begins.

Time to reveal Blip.

Play strat.

Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.

Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.

C'est tout.

Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.

Once you play the strat the unit was no longer deployed to the board.

Wrong, it did. It has simply changed where it is set up.

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.

No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.

Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.

blaktoof wrote:

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.

No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.

Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.

Citation please. I believe there is no rules basis for this assertion you keep making.

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Banville wrote:
Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.

Unit is deployed in ambush.

Game begins.

Time to reveal Blip.

Play strat.

Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.

Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.

C'est tout.

Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.

Once you play the strat the unit was no longer deployed to the board.

Wrong, it did. It has simply changed where it is set up.

When it changed where it was setup it was no longer deployed to the table during deployment, as where it was setup was changed from ambush to underground.

Okay. I'm out. I feel like this brick wall has been yelled at enough.

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.

No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.

Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.

Citation please. I believe there is no rules basis for this assertion you keep making.

You want me to cite that ambush and underground are not transports?

I'm sorry but there is no rules basis that they are transports, which why you implying setup can mean anything other then how it is used in tactical reserves isn't really insightful.

You repeating that doesn't make it true. There is nothing in the rules that says it works the way you are saying.

I'm about to give up on you, as I'm coming to believe you are being intentionally obstinate.

You both are right. In both point of view...
It’s very grey... not black and white.

But I was wondering what rule look like that allow unit leave a transport count as set up when it disembarks....

Because one of your point of view sound like that unit disembarked are illegal in turn one..

I was starting confusing. Need reread everything again. This one really need fix from GW... ( as if)

I'm out, guys.

And this is possibly one of the least grey of GWs rules. The issue is one or two people can't get their head around the fact that it works as written and may actually be intentional.

I'm off to get a mug of tea, which after it has been moved from the counter to the table ceased to ever have been on the counter to begin with.

blaktoof wrote:

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Stux wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.

No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.

Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.

Citation please. I believe there is no rules basis for this assertion you keep making.

You want me to cite that ambush and underground are not transports?

I'm sorry but there is no rules basis that they are transports, which why you implying setup can mean anything other then how it is used in tactical reserves isn't really insightful.

How about quoting the stratagem first to see if if backs up what you are claiming?

It's in the first post, you did read the first post right?

blaktoof wrote:
It's in the first post, you did read the first post right?

I was wondering if you had, since you seem to be ignoring what it says.

"The Came from Below...
Use this Strategem before you reveal an ambush marker. Select up to 3 units (excluding VEHICLES) from your army that are set up in ambush. For each unit that you select, remove one ambush marker from the battlefield. The selected units are no longer set up in ambush are are instead set up underground as described in the Cult Ambush ability"

During deployment they are set up in ambush. In turn one, they are no longer set up in one place but instead are set up in another place. They are still set up. They were set up in ambush during deployment, which the FAQ tells us counts as being deployed for purposes of tactical reserves. TCFB states they are still set up. There is nothing stating there is the past tense shenanigans you are claiming; they have been set up and still are set up, so are still set up throughout turn 1.

So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.

You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.

You are basically saying that an unit that advances and has a stratagem played on it that says it no longer counts as advancing and now counts as stationary for shooting, is still counted as having advanced when shooting.

Makes no sense.

They don't keep they're initial state. But because they had that initial state they get to turn up turn 1.