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The powerstone does seem to be the most rawly destructive though. Nobody explodes holding the soul stone in their hand. Or the mind stone in visions head. Or the space stone in thonses ungloved hand.

Its really the power stone that feths you just for touching it.

But they ALL feth you for using them. Remember how bad things were going for jane foster and malekith with the aether?

watched it, its alright and pretty much on par with what I expected (even if they stuck in a blatant 'dont worry over the timey wimey, just go with it)

also needed more Korg, one more thing to hate fortnight over I guess

 AduroT wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
Did Steve have his alternate timeline life then come back to the film timeline as an old man?

No, it was the same Steve. He was technically in the ice while he went back for Peggy, but only a handful of people really knew anything about that. So his timeline goes WW2 > Ice > MCU Movies > back into mid 20th Century. He knew to come to that spot in his old age as he knew Sam would be there to pass the shield to.

Except he can’t do that because you can’t change the past. Like, he can go back and live that, but old him shouldn’t be there in the present like he was. For all the crap they gave other time travel movies, they couldn’t even manage their own consistency.

He didn't change the past, though. All of that had already happened in Peggy's past but Peggy's past is not the same as Steve's past.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
Did Steve have his alternate timeline life then come back to the film timeline as an old man?

No, it was the same Steve. He was technically in the ice while he went back for Peggy, but only a handful of people really knew anything about that. So his timeline goes WW2 > Ice > MCU Movies > back into mid 20th Century. He knew to come to that spot in his old age as he knew Sam would be there to pass the shield to.

Except he can’t do that because you can’t change the past. Like, he can go back and live that, but old him shouldn’t be there in the present like he was. For all the crap they gave other time travel movies, they couldn’t even manage their own consistency.

He didn't change the past, though. All of that had already happened in Peggy's past but Peggy's past is not the same as Steve's past.

You can’t change the present. They explicitly tell you that. If Steve goes to the past and lives a life, he doesn’t end up in the same present he left as an old man because he didn’t exist in the past. Its why they can’t just go back and murder baby Thanos.

 AduroT wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
Did Steve have his alternate timeline life then come back to the film timeline as an old man?

No, it was the same Steve. He was technically in the ice while he went back for Peggy, but only a handful of people really knew anything about that. So his timeline goes WW2 > Ice > MCU Movies > back into mid 20th Century. He knew to come to that spot in his old age as he knew Sam would be there to pass the shield to.

Except he can’t do that because you can’t change the past. Like, he can go back and live that, but old him shouldn’t be there in the present like he was. For all the crap they gave other time travel movies, they couldn’t even manage their own consistency.

He didn't change the past, though. All of that had already happened in Peggy's past but Peggy's past is not the same as Steve's past.

You can’t change the present. They explicitly tell you that. If Steve goes to the past and lives a life, he doesn’t end up in the same present he left as an old man because he didn’t exist in the past. Its why they can’t just go back and murder baby Thanos.

He didn't change the present, though. Steve going to the past and living a life to end up back in the present does not change any of his current past. His living in the past was still his future from the perspective of the present (i.e the point at which he travelled back in time).

Steve goes back in time from point A to point B. From point B he lives his life until point A comes around again. Nothing in that requires changing any aspect of the future of point B. Any "changes" he brings about by living in the past have already been observed by others in that timeline (Peggy's never seen husband, for example), so they are not a paradox.

So, Steve living in the past does not create a paradox as anything he does has already been observed in others pasts and relativity says that the pasts and futures of different observers does not need to match. Steves future from the point he went back in time to live his life was the past of the rest of the characters.

The rules of time travel means that you cannot change events which have already been observed. But that means that any changes you make have already been observed. We have not observed anything in the films which precludes the existence of two Steve's in the past (one from the future running around and one frozen in ice).

The killing of Baby Thanos doesn't work because adult Thanos has already been observed. So killing him cannot change the present. We know Steve must be in the ice to get thawed out. All that means is that Steve cannot go back in time and thaw himself out without changing to a different timeline. As long as his actions which he is taking in his current present are the actions observed in the past of the observers who lived through that time, then he will not end up in a different present to the other characters.

The timeline we have been watching through all of the MCU films has always been the one in which Steve went back in time in Endgame and grew old. Nothing has been changed by his doing so as it was already observed (just not by us).

Observed by whom? Arre you suggesting nobody ever saw Steve Rogers as her husband? Did he live in the house for 50 years?

I don't see what the problem would have been to have him lived out his life in an alternate timeline and then return. At least that makes sense with what we are told.

 Gael Knight wrote:
Observed by whom? Arre you suggesting nobody ever saw Steve Rogers as her husband? Did he live in the house for 50 years?

I don't see what the problem would have been to have him lived out his life in an alternate timeline and then return. At least that makes sense with what we are told.

I mean, you do get how people work right? Elvis is dead. Some people insist he is not, and works as a shoe salesman in Bumfeck Nowhere, Idaho. How many rational people believe the latter? Not many, because it's preposterous, he died, the news said so.

Well, Captain America died, the news said so. He has a museum and everything. OK, that guy there might look a bit like Cap, but I mean, you, Average Joe, only really "saw" him in propaganda movies, mostly wearing a helmet-mask, so the similarity likely isn't as strong as you first thought, right?

And that's how people would dismiss the guy who looks quite a lot like Captain America mowing Peggy's lawn. Providing he avoids contact with people who don't personally know him other than Peggy, he could go completely undetected, but even if a few people did find out that still doesn't change anything because providing they kept silent it doesn't alter the timeline we've been seeing up until now, which is WW2 > Capsicle > Avengers & MCU > travel back to post WW2 > old man in "present" day.

 AduroT wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
Did Steve have his alternate timeline life then come back to the film timeline as an old man?

No, it was the same Steve. He was technically in the ice while he went back for Peggy, but only a handful of people really knew anything about that. So his timeline goes WW2 > Ice > MCU Movies > back into mid 20th Century. He knew to come to that spot in his old age as he knew Sam would be there to pass the shield to.

Except he can’t do that because you can’t change the past. Like, he can go back and live that, but old him shouldn’t be there in the present like he was. For all the crap they gave other time travel movies, they couldn’t even manage their own consistency.

Umm why cap can't be simultaneously frozen and as the future self? Provided he doesnt' go around changing past(sure if he does something and becomes public that changes what was known to happen...but if he lives quietly on his own that wouldn't be public knowledge so no inconsistency there. We don't know he didn't do that all the time because he kept quiet about himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
Did Steve have his alternate timeline life then come back to the film timeline as an old man?

No, it was the same Steve. He was technically in the ice while he went back for Peggy, but only a handful of people really knew anything about that. So his timeline goes WW2 > Ice > MCU Movies > back into mid 20th Century. He knew to come to that spot in his old age as he knew Sam would be there to pass the shield to.

Except he can’t do that because you can’t change the past. Like, he can go back and live that, but old him shouldn’t be there in the present like he was. For all the crap they gave other time travel movies, they couldn’t even manage their own consistency.

He didn't change the past, though. All of that had already happened in Peggy's past but Peggy's past is not the same as Steve's past.

You can’t change the present. They explicitly tell you that. If Steve goes to the past and lives a life, he doesn’t end up in the same present he left as an old man because he didn’t exist in the past. Its why they can’t just go back and murder baby Thanos.

Where does it show there was no old cap living all the time there but not making fuss of it? If he was there's no inconsistency. And he wouldn't be known about because he's not going around shouting "I'm captain america!" and doing heroic deeds. He's just one more worker in the big world living his life, marrying, having kids. Nobody knew he was from the future. Except maybe wife but if she held the secret as well(hardly impossible) no timeline was changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gael Knight wrote:
Observed by whom? Arre you suggesting nobody ever saw Steve Rogers as her husband? Did he live in the house for 50 years?

I don't see what the problem would have been to have him lived out his life in an alternate timeline and then return. At least that makes sense with what we are told.

Did any of those know he was cap america from the future? If we knew for SURE he was not in past living quietly that would be changing past. If we knew for sure he was not sending would change past. There's no evidence he wasn't though. And not being public figure is kinda point of living quietly...

It all breaks down when you realise that Shield would know its captain america and as Shield is Hydra as soon as that kicks off they take a little wander over to peggies house and put a bullet in him, not to mention they would be getting reports that there are in fact two captain americas.

time travel stories never work... EVER, the made a good effort but failed like every other time travel story

As long as he didn't change a single thing about what happened in the wider world after he got frozen up to when he left, things are perfectly ok. The really hard part would have been standing by and watching everything bad unfold without lifting a finger.

 Formosa wrote:
It all breaks down when you realise that Shield would know its captain america and as Shield is Hydra as soon as that kicks off they take a little wander over to peggies house and put a bullet in him, not to mention they would be getting reports that there are in fact two captain americas.

time travel stories never work... EVER, the made a good effort but failed like every other time travel story

Why would SHIELD know?

Peggy Carter was a high ranking Shield agent. You don’t think they wouldn’t keep tabs on her?

Also Bill and Ted absolutely got Time Travel right.

We could have always been watching the time line where cap goes to the past to hang with peggy carter. We could have switched perspective to the time line where he goes to the past to hang with peggy at any point. Steve could go back to hang out with peggy in every time line. Steve could have rejoined the main time line after peggys death in civil war and just hung about as an old man in the current time line.

Those are 4 very reasonable explanations for steve living his life in the past and not "breaking" anything in the continuity.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It all breaks down when you realise that Shield would know its captain america and as Shield is Hydra as soon as that kicks off they take a little wander over to peggies house and put a bullet in him, not to mention they would be getting reports that there are in fact two captain americas.

time travel stories never work... EVER, the made a good effort but failed like every other time travel story

Why would SHIELD know?

Because reasons obviously

Obviously cap america is going to go around telling people around he's captain america and not say settle down in some quiet suburb, taking regular 8-5 work. No way. Too boring. He would go for his own home and walk up to shield HQ and ask "what's next gig?"

tneva82 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It all breaks down when you realise that Shield would know its captain america and as Shield is Hydra as soon as that kicks off they take a little wander over to peggies house and put a bullet in him, not to mention they would be getting reports that there are in fact two captain americas.

time travel stories never work... EVER, the made a good effort but failed like every other time travel story

Why would SHIELD know?

Because reasons obviously

Obviously cap america is going to go around telling people around he's captain america and not say settle down in some quiet suburb, taking regular 8-5 work. No way. Too boring. He would go for his own home and walk up to shield HQ and ask "what's next gig?"

Do you really think he could sideline himself and not help out when people were in need? This is a man literally willing to throw his life away to save others.

You can help others without making fuss about it. And clearly writers thought he can live without becoming public hero.

I just assumed he used the device to return to the timeline after staying in an alternate one for awhile and getting his happy ending.

Isn't "sidelining" himself so that events play out as they should 100% what Cap would do? Cap has proven on several occasions that he would "sacrifice" himself for the greater good and do "whatever it takes"
So not interfering with the known events of the timeline so that they play out "correctly" IS a sacrifice for Cap. Resisting the urge to help because he knows that it would create a divergent timeline in which Thanos WINS is perfectly within Cap's character.

And actually, I think this above all proves (or at least supports) that Old Cap is indeed in the main MCU timeline all along. Because in the other 14 million potential timelines, Thanos wins. It doesn't appear that Old Cap comes from such a timeline. Could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to fit

I also find it interesting that we never see Peggy's husband when mentioned in Winter Solider or Civil War. It could entirely have been Cap all along and was always part of this timeline

-

Yeah, the majority of cap's alternate young life is lived out during the ice cap. At
least there's good odds he'll turn old before people recognize his likeness in
the public eye years later.

On the other hand, Cap could have very well lived a very public life as Captain America in an alternate timeline that would have had had no impact on the prime MCU timeline due to branching off as an alternate timeline. He was able to come back to the prime timeline since the method of time travel used the Quantum Realm, thus returning him to a specific quantum reality.

Not to mention Sharon not noticing that her Uncle looks a whole lot like Captain America... And didn't turn up at her Aunts funeral.

I still stick with my headcanon of: Instead, "Cap entered the soulstone and got his dance with Peggy there" ending. I prefer it to the real thing.

The whole climactic battle is a massive paradox unless the quantum "time travel" is actually about jumping between different reality's. So Steve could have beaten Hydra at all three of the Earth drop offs, saved Freya, hung out with "past" Starlord, and reunited with Peggy without affecting the main MCU timeline.

 skyth wrote:
I just assumed he used the device to return to the timeline after staying in an alternate one for awhile and getting his happy ending.

That makes the most sense to me. He stays there then pops back after she dies and he's dying. Has all sorts of adventures that don't matter to the prime universe (unless something/someone chases him through, which a nice hook for future movies and seemingly the kind of thing they intend, going by latest trailers)

tneva82 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It all breaks down when you realise that Shield would know its captain america and as Shield is Hydra as soon as that kicks off they take a little wander over to peggies house and put a bullet in him, not to mention they would be getting reports that there are in fact two captain americas.

time travel stories never work... EVER, the made a good effort but failed like every other time travel story

Why would SHIELD know?

Because reasons obviously

Obviously cap america is going to go around telling people around he's captain america and not say settle down in some quiet suburb, taking regular 8-5 work. No way. Too boring. He would go for his own home and walk up to shield HQ and ask "what's next gig?"

Because Peggy is one of the main members of Shield, because they can and do spy on themselves, because a person as famous as captain america WOULD be noticed in short order, or has everyone forgotten about all the propaganda vids they did of him during WW2 including pics of him without his mast on, the fella was mega famous, then on top of that Hydra sure as hell would know who he was and as soon as they take even a quick look at peggies life they would be like "who is the big fella your living with that looks exactly like captain america"

Or we can go with your explanation, he lived in a secure bunker underground with no human contact ever for the rest of his life and didnt turn up to his wifes funeral and she somehow forgot he was still alive

You have to remember that Cap only got recognized by one child while in the Cap museum, while surrounded by pictures of himself, so I don't think given the stupidity of the general P in comic book universes that it's a gimme.

 AduroT wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It all breaks down when you realise that Shield would know its captain america and as Shield is Hydra as soon as that kicks off they take a little wander over to peggies house and put a bullet in him, not to mention they would be getting reports that there are in fact two captain americas.

time travel stories never work... EVER, the made a good effort but failed like every other time travel story

Why would SHIELD know?

Because reasons obviously

Obviously cap america is going to go around telling people around he's captain america and not say settle down in some quiet suburb, taking regular 8-5 work. No way. Too boring. He would go for his own home and walk up to shield HQ and ask "what's next gig?"

Do you really think he could sideline himself and not help out when people were in need? This is a man literally willing to throw his life away to save others.

With the MCU version of time travel, yes, because Cap is driven to do the right thing, and the right thing is to keep things as they were to avoid creating any paradoxes.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As long as he didn't change a single thing about what happened in the wider world after he got frozen up to when he left, things are perfectly ok. The really hard part would have been standing by and watching everything bad unfold without lifting a finger.

Because he knows that “he” is already there, doing exactly that. From the time he thaws, anyway. He knows his other self is doing the job needed, so he knows the world is in good hands.

If I had a clone, and my clone went to work for me, did things exactly as I would so I could stay home and paint models, would I go to work to back him up? Nope. Cuz “I’m” already at work.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As long as he didn't change a single thing about what happened in the wider world after he got frozen up to when he left, things are perfectly ok. The really hard part would have been standing by and watching everything bad unfold without lifting a finger.

Because he knows that “he” is already there, doing exactly that. From the time he thaws, anyway. He knows his other self is doing the job needed, so he knows the world is in good hands.

If I had a clone, and my clone went to work for me, did things exactly as I would so I could stay home and paint models, would I go to work to back him up? Nope. Cuz “I’m” already at work.

That... isn't how psychology works for people with Cap's mentality. He's got 'evil triumphs when good men do nothing' written into his blood. He'd be constitutionally incapable of not doing _more_ good.
Which he could do freely in an alternate universe, which he'd be disposed to do anyway, to 'make up' for whatever their interference they might have caused by taking the stones in the first place.
Atonement, doing good, getting what he wants _and_ not taking risks with the primary timeline? Easy sell. He'd stay over there and pop back to Prime after everything is over.

Occam's razor wins, and it neatly avoids plot holes, and doesn't violate the rules they're laying out for time/alternate reality travel. Coming back and trying to live in secret does.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The whole climactic battle is a massive paradox unless the quantum "time travel" is actually about jumping between different reality's. .

It explicitly is. They discuss it (badly) among themselves, then the Ancient One lays it out for Bruce, with magic pictures. So yes, Cap can 'fix everything' from the point he lands in those realities. Narratively, that will probably end badly with unintended consequences, but he can definitely try.

Voss wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As long as he didn't change a single thing about what happened in the wider world after he got frozen up to when he left, things are perfectly ok. The really hard part would have been standing by and watching everything bad unfold without lifting a finger.

Because he knows that “he” is already there, doing exactly that. From the time he thaws, anyway. He knows his other self is doing the job needed, so he knows the world is in good hands.

If I had a clone, and my clone went to work for me, did things exactly as I would so I could stay home and paint models, would I go to work to back him up? Nope. Cuz “I’m” already at work.

That... isn't how psychology works for people with Cap's mentality. He's got 'evil triumphs when good men do nothing' written into his blood. He'd be constitutionally incapable of not doing _more_ good.
Which he could do freely in an alternate universe, which he'd be disposed to do anyway, to 'make up' for whatever their interference they might have caused by taking the stones in the first place.
Atonement, doing good, getting what he wants _and_ not taking risks with the primary timeline? Easy sell. He'd stay over there and pop back to Prime after everything is over.

Occam's razor wins, and it neatly avoids plot holes, and doesn't violate the rules they're laying out for time/alternate reality travel. Coming back and trying to live in secret does.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The whole climactic battle is a massive paradox unless the quantum "time travel" is actually about jumping between different reality's. .

It explicitly is. They discuss it (badly) among themselves, then the Ancient One lays it out for Bruce, with magic pictures.

Except he also knows if he does anything, he can screw things up royally. So he knows he’s already out there doing good deeds. Adding a second version of himself to do more good deeds could yield disastrous results. So he exhibits control and lets current-Cap do what he has to do.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As long as he didn't change a single thing about what happened in the wider world after he got frozen up to when he left, things are perfectly ok. The really hard part would have been standing by and watching everything bad unfold without lifting a finger.

Because he knows that “he” is already there, doing exactly that. From the time he thaws, anyway. He knows his other self is doing the job needed, so he knows the world is in good hands.

If I had a clone, and my clone went to work for me, did things exactly as I would so I could stay home and paint models, would I go to work to back him up? Nope. Cuz “I’m” already at work.

That... isn't how psychology works for people with Cap's mentality. He's got 'evil triumphs when good men do nothing' written into his blood. He'd be constitutionally incapable of not doing _more_ good.
Which he could do freely in an alternate universe, which he'd be disposed to do anyway, to 'make up' for whatever their interference they might have caused by taking the stones in the first place.
Atonement, doing good, getting what he wants _and_ not taking risks with the primary timeline? Easy sell. He'd stay over there and pop back to Prime after everything is over.

Occam's razor wins, and it neatly avoids plot holes, and doesn't violate the rules they're laying out for time/alternate reality travel. Coming back and trying to live in secret does.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The whole climactic battle is a massive paradox unless the quantum "time travel" is actually about jumping between different reality's. .

It explicitly is. They discuss it (badly) among themselves, then the Ancient One lays it out for Bruce, with magic pictures.

Except he also knows if he does anything, he can screw things up royally. So he knows he’s already out there doing good deeds. Adding a second version of himself to do more good deeds could yield disastrous results. So he exhibits control and lets current-Cap do what he has to do.

No he can't. They hammer this several times. You can't change the past. It's why they go to alternate realities in the first place.
It's not based on observers or anything else, it fundamentally can't be done, any more than he can benchpress the sun. Its simply an immutable rule of physics in the MCU, if you want to muck about in the past you have to go to a different reality and muck about with their timeline as it happens (your point of entry is the 'present')