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 LordofHats wrote:
Or just spawning off alternate realities.

The Loki TV show might provide answers for how that would work. Of course, it's also possible Steve morally decided that he had no right to alter the course of history. We've all seen the Butterfly Effect, right

That's the other possibility, and if he decided not to prevent the Communists from winning the Chinese Civil War or the Soviets getting the atomic bomb, then he'd certainly hold the line for anything more recent.

His very presence alters history though. That’s the whole point of the butterfly effect. I don’t even have a problem with Cap living that new life. My only issue is him being on the bench. He should have come back thru the machine as the movie had established that was required to get to a specific future.

Not sure the movie did specifically answer that,

It’s only Banner’s take on it after all.

 AduroT wrote:
His very presence alters history though. That’s the whole point of the butterfly effect. I don’t even have a problem with Cap living that new life. My only issue is him being on the bench. He should have come back thru the machine as the movie had established that was required to get to a specific future.

He doesn't need to if the timeline we have been following is the one with him already living his life back in time in.

And the movie specifically calls out the no changing history, only creating new futures. It's Dragonball Z Future Trunks android saga rules.

Which means every person who has died is someone Steve sat back and let die without trying to save them.

"Every person.... "


There seem to be a lot of people who want to piss on Steve Roger's happy ending.

See.... This entire discussion is why I don't like time travel stories and say they never work

They work well enough. You might as well say Spider-man stories don't work because irradiated spiders don't grant super powers.

Alternate realities or not - the impression was that Steve got a happy ending that he deserved and then met up with his friends at the end to pass on the shield, finishing that character's story arc on a positive note.

 AduroT wrote:
Which means every person who has died is someone Steve sat back and let die without trying to save them.

Well, no. That would only be true if he came back to the past of the original time line and hid for... basically Tony Stark's entire life (give or take a couple extra days/weeks at either end).

But the movie explicitly says he can't do that (by the physical laws of MCU time travel), so presumably he went to an alternate timeline and did Cap appropriate things while also living his happy life.

The only way that he suddenly becomes a horrible person is if you ignore the conversation the Hulk, Rocket and Nebula have with Antman and Warmachine about how Back to the Future and other time travel movies are stupid and wrong, because (at the very least) MCU time travel doesn't work like that, and it's completely impossible to travel into your own past because you inherently nullify any reason to actually do it. (If you time travel to stop X, you've stopped X, so don't have any reason to time travel in the first place).

So he goes back to the various time lines at the point X+1 (X being the point at which they stole the various stones in each time line), doesn't change 'the past' in any of them, and lives on over there after 'Camp Nostalgia,' then pops back after he left to return the stones, which changes nothing, because he's returning to each time line after the point he left it, including the primary one.

So the 'Camp Nostalgia' universe would be fairly different to the MCU we're familiar with, it also doesn't actually matter, unless and until characters from that universe wander into the primary one. (Which, going by the Spider trailers, is a thing that can potentially be happening)
---

While its a sappy end for a character I don't particularly like, it's consistent with both the character and the time travel rules they've established, and nothing in the film contradicts it (despite post movie interviews with the writers confusing the issue).

MarkNorfolk wrote:
They work well enough. You might as well say Spider-man stories don't work because irradiated spiders don't grant super powers.

Alternate realities or not - the impression was that Steve got a happy ending that he deserved and then met up with his friends at the end to pass on the shield, finishing that character's story arc on a positive note.

It didn't work though, you have all spent ages trying to rationalize that part of the movie, it broke its own rules and the happy ending is irrelevant, the timey wimey stuff failed, like it has done in every single film that has ever done it

Don't make it a bad film though, can't expect them to get right something no one else has ever managed.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes if you control time space matter etc. just double the resources, half the resources needed etc.

Turns out he's just a psychopath after all.

It was pointed out in the Infinity War thread last year, but the reason he didn't do this was "nobody would learn a lesson and it would just happen all over again". The part he didn't think of was that 1000 years in the future, he'd be gone, everyone who survived the cull would be gone, and it would just be a myth of legend. But in his mind's eye, he's right; in the immediate time, people wouldn't learn any lessons if they suddenly just gained a whole ton without a travesty to "give it" to them. The cull (or Snap) made the survivors remember what they lost and appreciate what they still had (again, in his mind's eye). He's driven, he honestly believes he's doing the right thing, and his reasoning is sound. But he sees the immediate future, and not a millennia into the future when the same thing will happen again, and his Infinity War passes into the realm of legend. So he's right and wrong all in the same breath.

How is he right though? He's only right if there's some inherent value in people "learning the lesson" that he wants them to learn, and there really isn't - frugality only has value insofar as resources are scarce, if resources were no longer scarce then there's no longer any need to be frugal and so no justification for his actions. Thanos possessed a device capable of rewriting reality to eliminate scarcity permanently if he so chose, and instead chose to mass-murder in order to preserve the status quo. There's no part of his ideology or actions that's right.

Which is why he's the villain of the piece. He's given a motive we can understand to make him more human and not just 'evil for the LOLZ!'...

But he's still the villain.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Of course for all we know on Earth-Steve he started making calls in the 60s and averted the Kennedy Assassination and Vietnam War. So by the time 2001 rolled around the world was so different there was no attack to avert.

Or basically if he messed with history on Earth-Steve there's no chance the Sept 11 attacks would have been on the same day/time if they happened at all. There were lots of things to avert first so that Earth would look very different. Maybe better, maybe not, but certainly different.

I'm assuming if what likely happened did happen- his going back spawning an alternate timeline- then things post-WW2 were very different, as there's no way he didn't take part. Then, like I said before, at sometime he probably had either Pym, Banner or Stark send him back somehow.

Pretty sure the people who invented the technology involved can change it to send him back elsewhere than the pad.

On Thanos’ Plan?

He’s insane. We know that. But he’s also entirely earnest that what he’s doing, he’s doing for the good of the universe and it’s inhabitants. And he even says the aim with the infinity stones is to to make the division random. He doesn’t pick and choose exactly who’s dusted and who survives. He’s not passing a moral judgement on anyone.

That he could just as easily have doubled resources, or altered reality so all resources are self replacing? Testament to his utter madness and the ego behind it. And possibly self-justification for the slaughter he inflicted on his own people. Any other solution could be admitting he was wrong.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Thanos’ Plan?

He’s insane. We know that. But he’s also entirely earnest that what he’s doing, he’s doing for the good of the universe and it’s inhabitants. And he even says the aim with the infinity stones is to to make the division random. He doesn’t pick and choose exactly who’s dusted and who survives. He’s not passing a moral judgement on anyone.

That he could just as easily have doubled resources, or altered reality so all resources are self replacing? Testament to his utter madness and the ego behind it. And possibly self-justification for the slaughter he inflicted on his own people. Any other solution could be admitting he was wrong.

Any good villain, like most characters, is imo defined by their contradictions.

Thanos likes to talk down to others, calling them arrogant or prideful. Incapable of thinking rationally or objectively, and he defines himself by this mask. I don't think it's coincidance.

Not to mention, by the time Thanos got the infinity stones, he has saw his plan work several times.
So he started with the conclusion of "Kill half" and went from there.

Not to mention, he was shown to be evil, Letting Ronan destroy the entire kree planet, killing 299 dwarves and deforming the remaining.

It's also worth highlighting that, Thanos, after seeing that "kill half" didn't work out how he'd hope. His solution changed to "kill everyone"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not to mention, by the time Thanos got the infinity stones, he has saw his plan work several times.
So he started with the conclusion of "Kill half" and went from there.

Not to mention, he was shown to be evil, Letting Ronan destroy the entire kree planet, killing 299 dwarves and deforming the remaining.

Where is he shown seeing his plan work?

I'd imagine most planets, having suffered his interference, would go full-on consumption mode trying desperately to build up defenses in case he comes BACK....


I rather enjoyed the movie.

Are there potential plot holes? Yes, yes there are. Comic books are like that.

Why do the plot holes not bother me? Because I enjoyed the movie. Because the characters were, for the most part, given the respect they deserve.... and therefore the FANS were given the respect they deserve for making 22 movies in 11 years successful.

I do note, having waded through this thread the past couple days since seeing the movie makes me a tiny bit more sympathetic for those who liked TLJ (despite it's gross disrespect for the established characters) and had to put up with people like me trashing it....

 Vulcan wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not to mention, by the time Thanos got the infinity stones, he has saw his plan work several times.
So he started with the conclusion of "Kill half" and went from there.

Not to mention, he was shown to be evil, Letting Ronan destroy the entire kree planet, killing 299 dwarves and deforming the remaining.

Where is he shown seeing his plan work?

I'd imagine most planets, having suffered his interference, would go full-on consumption mode trying desperately to build up defenses in case he comes BACK....

He did state in Infinity War that the planets he has "balanced" are now paradises.

Regarding Cap's timeline, I still maintain that Cap stayed in the main MCU timeline and that he had always comeback. He didn't change anything and there was no "butterfly effect" because Old Cap was always there. Time loop style.
The clues are there. We never see Peggy's husband, therefore it could always have been Cap.

And no, he would not have had an issue with "side-lining" himself. Cap's arc showed that sometimes you do have to trade lives. Tony made that sacrifice and Cap would honor that. Plus, he knows how things work out, so by interfering, he risks changing the timeline where he's at, thus making it worse.
Cap would not risk damning an alternate timeline to be Snapped.
Remember, there is only 1 out of 14+million timelines in which they Avengers successfully stop Thanos. So Cap HAS to be in that 1 timeline

Plus, the rules they establish only imply that removal of the stones themselves is what creates an alternate timeline. Cap returned the Stones, hence no alternate timeline. At list but the movie's own rules

But if you really want to see a messed up (in a good way) Time Travel movie, watch Predestination with Ethan Hawk. That's a mind bender.

-

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not to mention, by the time Thanos got the infinity stones, he has saw his plan work several times.
So he started with the conclusion of "Kill half" and went from there.

Not to mention, he was shown to be evil, Letting Ronan destroy the entire kree planet, killing 299 dwarves and deforming the remaining.

Where is he shown seeing his plan work?

I'd imagine most planets, having suffered his interference, would go full-on consumption mode trying desperately to build up defenses in case he comes BACK....

He did state in Infinity War that the planets he has "balanced" are now paradises.

Possibly because they’re terrified of Thanos returning to re-educate them once again?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not to mention, by the time Thanos got the infinity stones, he has saw his plan work several times.
So he started with the conclusion of "Kill half" and went from there.

Not to mention, he was shown to be evil, Letting Ronan destroy the entire kree planet, killing 299 dwarves and deforming the remaining.

Where is he shown seeing his plan work?

I'd imagine most planets, having suffered his interference, would go full-on consumption mode trying desperately to build up defenses in case he comes BACK....

He did state in Infinity War that the planets he has "balanced" are now paradises.

Possibly because they’re terrified of Thanos returning to re-educate them once again?

Also possible he never actually bothered going to check and is just assuming that it became great. Like how he made no attempt to check how it worked out after the Snap before he destroyed the stones.

 Compel wrote:
It's also worth highlighting that, Thanos, after seeing that "kill half" didn't work out how he'd hope. His solution changed to "kill everyone"

Thanos is a complete loony - Nothing about his plan makes any sense - at all. Thats fair enough cos he is a loony

Really enjoyable film.

I do note, having waded through this thread the past couple days since seeing the movie makes me a tiny bit more sympathetic for those who liked TLJ (despite it's gross disrespect for the established characters) and had to put up with people like me trashing it....

The primary difference is that one element of the film is causing some friendly debate - few have any kind of issue with the meat of the film - plot, pacing, characters, story - all the things that TLJ failed so much at.

wew wrong thread.

Galef wrote:
Remember, there is only 1 out of 14+million timelines in which they Avengers successfully stop Thanos. So Cap HAS to be in that 1 timeline

That is... a very good point.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Compel wrote:
It's also worth highlighting that, Thanos, after seeing that "kill half" didn't work out how he'd hope. His solution changed to "kill everyone"

Thanos is a complete loony - Nothing about his plan makes any sense - at all. Thats fair enough cos he is a loony

Really enjoyable film.

I do note, having waded through this thread the past couple days since seeing the movie makes me a tiny bit more sympathetic for those who liked TLJ (despite it's gross disrespect for the established characters) and had to put up with people like me trashing it....

The primary difference is that one element of the film is causing some friendly debate - few have any kind of issue with the meat of the film - plot, pacing, characters, story - all the things that TLJ failed so much at.

Yeah, we are arguing about minutia and stuff we think of way after the fact.
TLJ has two camps, Love it or Hate it. And both are convinced the others are morons.

I hated it but don't think those who loved it are morons. I don't even think about it unless its brought up.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Compel wrote:
It's also worth highlighting that, Thanos, after seeing that "kill half" didn't work out how he'd hope. His solution changed to "kill everyone"

Thanos is a complete loony - Nothing about his plan makes any sense - at all. Thats fair enough cos he is a loony

Really enjoyable film.

I do note, having waded through this thread the past couple days since seeing the movie makes me a tiny bit more sympathetic for those who liked TLJ (despite it's gross disrespect for the established characters) and had to put up with people like me trashing it....

The primary difference is that one element of the film is causing some friendly debate - few have any kind of issue with the meat of the film - plot, pacing, characters, story - all the things that TLJ failed so much at.

Yeah, we are arguing about minutia and stuff we think of way after the fact.
TLJ has two camps, Love it or Hate it. And both are convinced the others are morons.

I hate and despise TLJ but I don't think anyone who likes it is a moron. Why exactly do you say that? People like what they like.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not to mention, by the time Thanos got the infinity stones, he has saw his plan work several times.
So he started with the conclusion of "Kill half" and went from there.

Not to mention, he was shown to be evil, Letting Ronan destroy the entire kree planet, killing 299 dwarves and deforming the remaining.

Where is he shown seeing his plan work?

I'd imagine most planets, having suffered his interference, would go full-on consumption mode trying desperately to build up defenses in case he comes BACK....

He did state in Infinity War that the planets he has "balanced" are now paradises.

And this statement by Thanos is credible because...?

You sure he's not just saying that because he wants desperately to believe it?

Or it's again his own peculiar perspective.

Let's be brutal for a moment. If the snap was real, and our population went from 7,000,000,000 to 3,500,000,000? That would be, environmentally, a good thing. Categorically it would be. And with how inheritance laws work, we may even see a financial benefit, depending on who got snapped out of existence. Imagine the immediate family of significant land owners all went. From there, it's a matter of tracing that family tree to survivors, and divvying the assets up from there.

What Thanos didn't take account of is the psychological impact. That his Gift (and he did see it as a solely benevolent act) wouldn't be well received. That grief would see many seek to undo it. Such short sightedness helps portray him as a lunatic zealot. He simply cannot imagine another viewpoint.

So to those who benefitted, in his mind he has only left them a paradise. A fully developed world without the incumbent population. A chance to better embrace population control (I am not endorsing this, just in case anyone wondered). A roof for every head. Food for every belly. And a lasting terror that if we don't maintain that new status quo, the horror will happen again and again and again until the lesson is learnt.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or it's again his own peculiar perspective.

Let's be brutal for a moment. If the snap was real, and our population went from 7,000,000,000 to 3,500,000,000? That would be, environmentally, a good thing. Categorically it would be. And with how inheritance laws work, we may even see a financial benefit, depending on who got snapped out of existence. Imagine the immediate family of significant land owners all went. From there, it's a matter of tracing that family tree to survivors, and divvying the assets up from there.

What Thanos didn't take account of is the psychological impact. That his Gift (and he did see it as a solely benevolent act) wouldn't be well received. That grief would see many seek to undo it. Such short sightedness helps portray him as a lunatic zealot. He simply cannot imagine another viewpoint.

So to those who benefitted, in his mind he has only left them a paradise. A fully developed world without the incumbent population. A chance to better embrace population control (I am not endorsing this, just in case anyone wondered). A roof for every head. Food for every belly. And a lasting terror that if we don't maintain that new status quo, the horror will happen again and again and again until the lesson is learnt.

Yeah but he was not that well organised - he just (as far as we can tell) just selected half at random and they die - you might have whole areas with just kids left or old people. We saw the impact on Earth - it ws a total disaster. There are far more poor people than rich people so its likely most of those who vanished were poor and therefore more opportunity for any surivivng greedy corps or billionires to increase their power, wealth and proprety.

There is no real method to his madness.

And of course if the planet survives - then its population grwos again and nothing changes..... he becomes nothing more than a madman that killed untold numbers of people for....nothing.