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 Alpharius wrote:
Really, this is all GRRM's fault, for not being able to finish a book in 8+ years.

Kind of? I think HBO and the showrunners had every reason to believe (were given every reason to believe?) that TWoW would be released in time for them to adapt it. That's on GRRM. They had to know that they'd be on the hook for the conclusion, though. And wrapping the thing up -- even with a general outline from GRRM -- was always going to be a big challenge. I genuinely believe that. But what baffles me is how many of my objections to the writing have nothing to do with those constraints and challenges.

 gorgon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really, this is all GRRM's fault, for not being able to finish a book in 8+ years.

Kind of? I think HBO and the showrunners had every reason to believe (were given every reason to believe?) that TWoW would be released in time for them to adapt it. That's on GRRM. They had to know that they'd be on the hook for the conclusion, though. And wrapping the thing up -- even with a general outline from GRRM -- was always going to be a big challenge. I genuinely believe that. But what baffles me is how many of my objections to the writing have nothing to do with those constraints and challenges.

Its just as likely the terrible bits are in fact the GRM bits - given how bad books 4 and 5 are.

It was quite ironic how Sansa, Varys etc were talking about Jon maipulating Dany given (as she herself said) she came North to help him, because she loved him.

She has lost 2 dragons, her fleet, half her army, a beloved friend and likely her throne.

What have Jon and co lost?

Is really a shame , to see all that people defending this season "But is just a funny TV-show!"

No. GoT was never just a funny TV-Show. Family Guy was a stupid, funny TV-Show. GoT was something else. And thats why is so painfull.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really, this is all GRRM's fault, for not being able to finish a book in 8+ years.

Kind of? I think HBO and the showrunners had every reason to believe (were given every reason to believe?) that TWoW would be released in time for them to adapt it. That's on GRRM. They had to know that they'd be on the hook for the conclusion, though. And wrapping the thing up -- even with a general outline from GRRM -- was always going to be a big challenge. I genuinely believe that. But what baffles me is how many of my objections to the writing have nothing to do with those constraints and challenges.

Its just as likely the terrible bits are in fact the GRM bits - given how bad books 4 and 5 are.

It was quite ironic how Sansa, Varys etc were talking about Jon maipulating Dany given (as she herself said) she came North to help him, because she loved him.

She has lost 2 dragons, her fleet, half her army, a beloved friend and likely her throne.

What have Jon and co lost?

Most of their family and half the citizens of the North?

I think you need to be prepared for the possibility that Daenerys doesn't end up on the throne. In fact, there has always been a good chance she ends up as Nissa Nissa, with a sword stuck in her.

Not to mention their freedom. The North was an independent rebel state, but they work for Danny now. Which means that instead of fortifying Winterfell and preparing for the coming winter, they have to use the precious last bits of manpower they have to march on King's Landing as that's what Danny wants.

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really, this is all GRRM's fault, for not being able to finish a book in 8+ years.

Kind of? I think HBO and the showrunners had every reason to believe (were given every reason to believe?) that TWoW would be released in time for them to adapt it. That's on GRRM. They had to know that they'd be on the hook for the conclusion, though. And wrapping the thing up -- even with a general outline from GRRM -- was always going to be a big challenge. I genuinely believe that. But what baffles me is how many of my objections to the writing have nothing to do with those constraints and challenges.

Its just as likely the terrible bits are in fact the GRM bits - given how bad books 4 and 5 are.

It was quite ironic how Sansa, Varys etc were talking about Jon maipulating Dany given (as she herself said) she came North to help him, because she loved him.

She has lost 2 dragons, her fleet, half her army, a beloved friend and likely her throne.

What have Jon and co lost?

Most of their family and half the citizens of the North?

I think you need to be prepared for the possibility that Daenerys doesn't end up on the throne. In fact, there has always been a good chance she ends up as Nissa Nissa, with a sword stuck in her.

Yeah I already said I thought she would die cos Jon Snow

The North (ie Sansa) are already plotting to break free - even if she wins (less and less likely) they would rebel - we have seen how little Sansa's oaths to her brother are worth.

They work for Dany because she was the only option, the only one who would bother heading up to help. If not for her they would all be dead, but that will be quickly forgotten - in fact it already has. If she had not come north - Kings Landing would already be hers.

I think Danny wins, and then the North (Sansa and Arya) do away with her, despite Jon's wishes, and then they 'force' Jon to take the throne, helping the North and "The Realm", ala the Spider...

 Alpharius wrote:
I think Danny wins, and then the North (Sansa and Arya) do away with her, despite Jon's wishes, and then they 'force' Jon to take the throne, helping the North and "The Realm", ala the Spider...

Quite possible - Dany may well loose her dragon in the siege first to come given that that the Alliance does not have the barest grasp of military tactics - I doubt they will sit back and bombard the gun emplacements.....

Or she gives up and goes back to Esos and tells the ungrateful gits in Westros to stick it - she can rule one side of the world and they can keep that bit. After all her people did come from Valaria not Westros.

 Mr Morden wrote:
They work for Dany because she was the only option, the only one who would bother heading up to help. If not for her they would all be dead, but that will be quickly forgotten - in fact it already has. If she had not come north - Kings Landing would already be hers.

For a little while, until the WWs consumed everything...which they certainly would have had they hit an unreinforced North. Would have allowed the WWs to take them apart piecemeal, AND expanded the wight army by a significant amount. Her decision to defend the North wasn't made only out of generosity. They had to make their stand in the North, or else she wouldn't *keep* the throne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I think Danny wins, and then the North (Sansa and Arya) do away with her, despite Jon's wishes, and then they 'force' Jon to take the throne, helping the North and "The Realm", ala the Spider...

Quite possible - Dany may well loose her dragon in the siege first to come given that that the Alliance does not have the barest grasp of military tactics - I doubt they will sit back and bombard the gun emplacements.....

Or she gives up and goes back to Esos and tells the ungrateful gits in Westros to stick it - she can rule one side of the world and they can keep that bit. After all her people did come from Valaria not Westros.

I'm sure this battle will be very well shot, with impressive production values, and very little sense on either side.

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
They work for Dany because she was the only option, the only one who would bother heading up to help. If not for her they would all be dead, but that will be quickly forgotten - in fact it already has. If she had not come north - Kings Landing would already be hers.

For a little while, until the WWs consumed everything...which they certainly would have had they hit an unreinforced North. Would have allowed the WWs to take them apart piecemeal, AND expanded the wight army by a significant amount. Her decision to defend the North wasn't made only out of generosity. They had to make their stand in the North, or else she wouldn't *keep* the throne.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I think Danny wins, and then the North (Sansa and Arya) do away with her, despite Jon's wishes, and then they 'force' Jon to take the throne, helping the North and "The Realm", ala the Spider...

Quite possible - Dany may well loose her dragon in the siege first to come given that that the Alliance does not have the barest grasp of military tactics - I doubt they will sit back and bombard the gun emplacements.....

Or she gives up and goes back to Esos and tells the ungrateful gits in Westros to stick it - she can rule one side of the world and they can keep that bit. After all her people did come from Valaria not Westros.

I'm sure this battle will be very well shot, with impressive production values, and very little sense on either side.

The wierd thing is that apparently according to the show, none of her sacrifce was actually needed - Apparently Aryra was all that was needed? If she had conquered the South, the Night King would have slaughtered everone without mile thick plot shields and then wondered into Winterfell gardens, said hi to Bran and then got stabbed. All is good - they didn;t know that but it seems to be the message?

None of the battle of Winterfell or its defenders, or dragonglass or dragons made any difference to the outcome of that battle.

Now because she and her armies were there - many survived but as usual when she tries to do the "right thing" it always backfires - probably the gods want her to let loose and burn everything, whatever happened to all the other priestesses of the Lord of Light?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
please, tell me what in the show said anything more about stannis than "I'm a second son and I follow goofy crap because the goofy crap worked for me once". I really don't get the stannis love, is it like an internet meme or 4chan thing?

The love for him stems from him being an amazing character in the book and DnD having to basically rewrite him from the ground up to make him less compelling and more villainous because they, to quote what they actually said, "didn't really understand the character".

People like him because he's basically Frolo from the Disney Hunchback of Notre Dame in that god itself (the writers) had to cripple the character in order to give the rest of the Westeros players a chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
They work for Dany because she was the only option, the only one who would bother heading up to help. If not for her they would all be dead, but that will be quickly forgotten - in fact it already has. If she had not come north - Kings Landing would already be hers.

If she hadn't come North they'd be stuck on the other side of the wall with no dragon to siege with.

You mean when another one of Jon's plans backfired and she had to go rescue him and he got a dragon killed looking for those last few exps to level up

Stannis is quite interesting in the books but oveshadowed by others and of course swamped by all the nobody characters that GRm keeps adding and wasting time on.

I call bs that they only lost 50% of their men. It looked more like 80%, considering how few defenders were left.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I call bs that they only lost 50% of their men. It looked more like 80%, considering how few defenders were left.

At this point none of it makes that much sense - There are enough left to make a decent fight at Kings Landing, thats all they want.

Betting none of the the artillery makes it down south as they would wipe out the gatling balistae in a few shots as they are compeltely exposed. Of they fly the dragon up above them and drop rocks on them

or they could charge at the castle walls

 Mr Morden wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I call bs that they only lost 50% of their men. It looked more like 80%, considering how few defenders were left.

At this point none of it makes that much sense - There are enough left to make a decent fight at Kings Landing, thats all they want.

Betting none of the the artillery makes it down south as they would wipe out the gatling balistae in a few shots as they are compeltely exposed. Of they fly the dragon up above them and drop rocks on them

or they could charge at the castle walls

that last part is likely jon's plan. i could see them having more forces from dragonstone, but yeah that looked like a major TPK at winterfell.

What are the chances Euron's fleet gets annihilated in the next episode? Just basing it off the trailer for the next episode.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What are the chances Euron's fleet gets annihilated in the next episode? Just basing it off the trailer for the next episode.

#

Almost certain I think - if only to balance the sides and so people can moan about Dany burning people (in the middle of a war - shock horror)

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What are the chances Euron's fleet gets annihilated in the next episode? Just basing it off the trailer for the next episode.

#

Almost certain I think - if only to balance the sides and so people can moan about Dany burning people (in the middle of a war - shock horror)

Well, yes, people generally do moan about tyrants murdering normal civilians or captured, unarmed, helpless enemies during a war. They have done since pretty much the beginning of warfare. Because it's wrong. It's also rampant hypocrisy and a complete betrayal of your own supposed morality when you have styled yourself as a new kind of leader dedicated to "breaking the wheel" rather than merely trying to ride it to the top - there was a tissue thin argument that Dany wasn't going Full Daddy when she burned the Tarlys, but there's none if she does it to a whole city full of smallfolk. Burning the city down with everyone inside is burning the city down with everyone inside, it doesn't matter if you do it from inside the keep with wildfire as the besieged or from above it on dragonback as the besieger, if it was wrong for the Mad King to do it - and it unequivocally, incontestably was - then it's also wrong for Dany to do it.

Very few people will moan about Dany burning the Ironborn fleet because A; it's a fleet of warships, ie a combatant not the civilian populace of a city, and B; it's led by Euron, who everybody sane fething hates and wants to see die.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What are the chances Euron's fleet gets annihilated in the next episode? Just basing it off the trailer for the next episode.

#

Almost certain I think - if only to balance the sides and so people can moan about Dany burning people (in the middle of a war - shock horror)

Well, yes, people generally do moan about tyrants murdering normal civilians or captured, unarmed, helpless enemies during a war. They have done since pretty much the beginning of warfare. Because it's wrong. It's also rampant hypocrisy and a complete betrayal of your own supposed morality when you have styled yourself as a new kind of leader dedicated to "breaking the wheel" rather than merely trying to ride it to the top - there was a tissue thin argument that Dany wasn't going Full Daddy when she burned the Tarlys, but there's none if she does it to a whole city full of smallfolk. Burning the city down with everyone inside is burning the city down with everyone inside, it doesn't matter if you do it from inside the keep with wildfire as the besieged or from above it on dragonback as the besieger, if it was wrong for the Mad King to do it - and it unequivocally, incontestably was - then it's also wrong for Dany to do it.

Very few people will moan about Dany burning the Ironborn fleet because A; it's a fleet of warships, ie a combatant not the civilian populace of a city, and B; it's led by Euron, who everybody sane fething hates and wants to see die.

Oh right - this nonsense again. She has beant over backwards to appease those who want to minimise cassulaties - and where has it got her? friiends executed, half her army gone, 2 dragons dead and her throne slipping away. She should have burnt the Red Keep on day one in Westros (not the city) until somone surrendered. But we have to have Jon Snow on the throne. Like Sansa - she is beginning to realise that her dream is just that - a dream - if she really wants a revolution it will need to be sown in fields of fire and blood - just as her anscestors and every other conqueror have and will do.

Seriously - you do know what happened when a city fell to seige warfare right? It was not a nice pleasent thing where they only killed those defenders who refused to surrender. Nope. Normally the warriors/soldiers are given free rein to do whatever they want and thats some really horrible stuff - mass rape, torture, executions for fun - thats what happened throughout history upto and including the modern day. Trying to restrain your soldiers is dangerous - even hard line people like Wellington had to step back from trying to stop the sack of a city on occassion, becuase his men would have killed him.

Thats what will happen when / if they take the city - certainly by the Dothraki and likely by everyone else - the Unsullied may not rape but they sure as hell will take it out on those in the city that Cersei held - not nice, probably not right but thats what happens. If they don;t allude to that (as they did with Meeren)- then its pandering to people like you. Remember thier beloved commander just saw his the love of his life executed in front of him and what pray tell where her last words? They will go through the city like butchers.

There are very few rules to war in a period like this - those that do exisit are purely to protect the rich and powerful - hence ransom. Anyone else gets out of the way or suffers. Thats medievil life.

Whats the other options - a long siege - well then guess who suffers and starves in that scenario - its not Cersei and the army - its the civilians - many will die - mostly the old and the very young, the survivors will have to face the invaders. Of course this is what Cersei wants - you either win or you die - she is more than happy to watch the city die after what they did to her on the walk of shame.

but whats your option?

Dany is perfectly in her rights to burn the Tarlys's - they did not bend the knee - they die - all other rulers - inlcuding everyones' beloved Jon Snow would have executed them, he said so himself. But only Dany is mad - cos reasons....

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What are the chances Euron's fleet gets annihilated in the next episode? Just basing it off the trailer for the next episode.

#

Almost certain I think - if only to balance the sides and so people can moan about Dany burning people (in the middle of a war - shock horror)

Well, yes, people generally do moan about tyrants murdering normal civilians or captured, unarmed, helpless enemies during a war. They have done since pretty much the beginning of warfare. Because it's wrong. It's also rampant hypocrisy and a complete betrayal of your own supposed morality when you have styled yourself as a new kind of leader dedicated to "breaking the wheel" rather than merely trying to ride it to the top - there was a tissue thin argument that Dany wasn't going Full Daddy when she burned the Tarlys, but there's none if she does it to a whole city full of smallfolk. Burning the city down with everyone inside is burning the city down with everyone inside, it doesn't matter if you do it from inside the keep with wildfire as the besieged or from above it on dragonback as the besieger, if it was wrong for the Mad King to do it - and it unequivocally, incontestably was - then it's also wrong for Dany to do it.

Very few people will moan about Dany burning the Ironborn fleet because A; it's a fleet of warships, ie a combatant not the civilian populace of a city, and B; it's led by Euron, who everybody sane fething hates and wants to see die.

rabble rabble rabble

"Other people do it" is not an excuse when your whole shtick is supposedly that you aren't like everyone else and want to do things better. People who adopt a system's norms in order to gain the power to change it rarely end up changing anything.

And Dany is mad - probably - because she has not "bent over backwards" to do anything; she has repeatedly been barely restrained from going dark side by her advisors, not always successfully, and they are evidently no longer having much impact on her. Further "she was well within her rights to execute the Tarlys" is a pretty far cry from "she was entirely justified in burning unarmed prisoners of war alive", even if it were true.

Gendry is the bookies favourite for the throne. Followed by Jon then Bran.

I think it could be Gendry marrying Sansa. After Sansa betrays Tyrion in some way.She's being a bit of a budget Littlefinger.

Dany goes insane, Jon kills her. Goes off to live in the true north.

I think that's a definite maybe. Other than his dalliance with Arya, there isn't a clear reason why they brought the character back to the show. He fits Varys' qualifications of a guy who doesn't want to be king, and he could represent a compromise choice (and easy puppet) of the kingmakers if/when Jon backs out (him returning to the North in some capacity still seems like his path). And these are showrunners who have been ruthlessly (often hamfistedly) chopping characters and groups they don't absolutely need for the conclusion.

On the other hand...hamfists! It'd be better if good writing was keeping us guessing moreso than who-knows-what-nonsense-these-writers-will-dream-up-edness. But at least we're still guessing, I suppose.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What are the chances Euron's fleet gets annihilated in the next episode? Just basing it off the trailer for the next episode.

#

Almost certain I think - if only to balance the sides and so people can moan about Dany burning people (in the middle of a war - shock horror)

Well, yes, people generally do moan about tyrants murdering normal civilians or captured, unarmed, helpless enemies during a war. They have done since pretty much the beginning of warfare. Because it's wrong. It's also rampant hypocrisy and a complete betrayal of your own supposed morality when you have styled yourself as a new kind of leader dedicated to "breaking the wheel" rather than merely trying to ride it to the top - there was a tissue thin argument that Dany wasn't going Full Daddy when she burned the Tarlys, but there's none if she does it to a whole city full of smallfolk. Burning the city down with everyone inside is burning the city down with everyone inside, it doesn't matter if you do it from inside the keep with wildfire as the besieged or from above it on dragonback as the besieger, if it was wrong for the Mad King to do it - and it unequivocally, incontestably was - then it's also wrong for Dany to do it.

Very few people will moan about Dany burning the Ironborn fleet because A; it's a fleet of warships, ie a combatant not the civilian populace of a city, and B; it's led by Euron, who everybody sane fething hates and wants to see die.

rabble rabble rabble

Splutter -Whine - Splutter
.

Dark Side - Really do you even watch the show? Euron, Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsey are the dark side. I don't see her burning children either like some peoples favourite brother of the durken abusive king or the priestess of the Lord of Light? Or dropping children out of towers with a quip or raping your sister - oh but Jamies a good guy now right?

Of course you have to compare her everyone else - Duh!

Ah so ignore every point I made about thats how the world works and she has to come to terms with the reality? Just muster the same "Dany is mad " arguments - sad really.

AGAIN what is you solution to the siege problem - I am sure that you have one that somehow means no civilian deaths? Right? Or is it just Ohss Nooo Don't burn the pretty city, much better to let people starve and be slaughtered in the sack of it.

FFS - they were given a choice - bend the knee or die - what more did they want - SHE WAS ENTIRELY Justified by the laws of the realm not the petty morality that someone sitting in armchair in the 21st century .

She executed them by fire rather than axe - took about the same time - espeically if you get an incompetant executioner - what exactly is your problem? Death is death.

 Gael Knight wrote:
Gendry is the bookies favourite for the throne. Followed by Jon then Bran.

I think it could be Gendry marrying Sansa. After Sansa betrays Tyrion in some way.She's being a bit of a budget Littlefinger.

Dany goes insane, Jon kills her. Goes off to live in the true north.

Thats bad enough to be the plan for the next few episodes. Now that they have suddenly decided Dany is insane

Sansa I can see ruling the North and a puppet on the thrine down south makes sense for her.

Do we think there will be any more Bran nonsense? Or leaving that for the prequals....

Hmm...Bran. As of now, a bunch of people sacrificed their lives so that Bran...could accomplish what, exactly? Serve as bait for the NK? Tell people that Jon is a secret Targaryen but not actually prove it? And if Jon ends up turning down the throne, what was even the point of that?

I think Bran is another character that they inherited from GRRM and then didn't know how to use. That's not all their fault, as I think GRRM overcomplicated his story with books 4 and 5. But it's really been their story for the last 3 seasons or whatever, and too many of their own story threads seem to have gone nowhere...not in a red herring way, but in a just plain pointless way.

But sure...if Bran has nothing much to do with this story, but is the bridge to the new GoT franchise on HBO, I guess I get it.

It's been a week, and I still am highly annoyed with last week's episode. I love the show but man they are making some really questionable choices with the storytelling. I hope they can pull it out in the end but I am starting to doubt they can.

So far as Rhaegal getting killed so abruptly, that is what bothers me the most. How could Dany, 500 feet up, not have seen the Iron Fleet? My drone can see for literally miles in every direction at 400 feet. And lets not retread the ground about how every guy on a scorpion was Robin Hood, and how they fired like machine guns, and so on.

I think they could have ended in the same place and it still have been satisfying: They see a single Greyjoy ship, and engage it. Turns out to be a trap, and other Greyjoy ships appear from behind terrain (or are camoflaged on the shore!) They release a torrent of scorpion bolts, and they all either miss, or bounce off. The dragons are now torching stuff left and right, screaming burning men, and so on. Suddenly, a shot hits Rhaegal in the eye, mirroring what happened to Meraxes!

You still wind up with the same conclusion but it feels way less cheap. But of course, I suppose they blew all the CGI on whatever happened in the dark in a snowstorm, earlier.

Ugh. I try to tune out the people who clearly hate the show but still watch for reasons I cannot fathom, but either they're rubbing off on me, or I have to concede some points to them.

I assume they really ARE going to turn Dany into the mad queen, and presumably Arya or Jon kills her, and that feels very abrupt after 8 years of building her up to pull a heel turn in literally the last 2 episodes.

I'm getting Mark Hamil vibes from these two.

I dunno, maybe I've been watching a different series with different eyes, but to me, yeah Dany is going to go the mad queen way. She has had literally every single one of the advisors who have been cautioning her against her worst instincts for the last four seasons killed. Now she is doing what she always wanted to do. She isn't a heroic character. She is just her character.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I dunno, maybe I've been watching a different series with different eyes, but to me, yeah Dany is going to go the mad queen way. She has had literally every single one of the advisors who have been cautioning her against her worst instincts for the last four seasons killed. Now she is doing what she always wanted to do. She isn't a heroic character. She is just her character.

Really please list those advisors she had killed - Varys is still there, Tyrion is still there, she has lost some to enemy action.

The only madness has been crowbarred into this season, she has been far less ruthless than any other potential ruler in the race to the Iron Throne.

Maybe now people are looking to betray her left and right, she has lost two (proxy) children and a close friend she might be entitled to be a bit touchy - she is not paranoid if people are actually out to get her.

She asked her lover to do one thing for her (after risking everything for him several times) and he refused.

Of course if she had burned the Red keep in episode 1 of Season 7 she would have none of these problems. She would have a huge army, 3 dragons and likely an accepting people - as has been confirmed a number of times - most people don't care who sits on the Iron Throne. The dead would have been sorted out by Aryra's dagger.

Seriously, you want to play a semantics game? we can, I guess, it is the Internet, after all. You knew exactly what I meant so your epeen points didn't go up, sorry to say.

Far less ruthless except for a few people (Jon, Sansa, Tyron, Yarys, etc.) you know, all the people telling her not to do it on a moral basis. Yup, never occurred to them.

If you missed the madness throughout, sorry for you, you must go back and watch every episode again. Or not. You will just be more upset over the ending, I guess.

You didn't see her face after she asked her lover to do the one thing he cannot do, and she knew he couldn't do it? Guess not. Not surprised. You seem to not be able to read beyond a literal interpretation.

I look forward to seeing mad Dany burn down King's Landing.