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So, an option for the big mek character is to take a grot oiler. The big mek is a character, and though the grot oiler isn't (technically), he is considered to have the character keyword for the purposes of shooting attacks. Additionally, the grot oiler essentially acts as a part of the unit, but its death is ignored for the purposes of morale and you use the toughness of the big mek.

But most notably, the grot oiler acts in normal circumstances as a second target to the big mek. So, typically, if the big mek takes a wound, you can shrug it off to the grot oiler.

So, if you shot a lascannon at a big mek with a grot oiler, you could put the lascannon wound on the grot.

How does this work with a vindicare assassin? Could the assassin pick out the big mek and ignore the grot oiler? I don't think he can, as the mek and grot are essentially a unit of 2. But I just want to check.

What about the extra mortal wounds the assassin does? Assuming he hits and wounds, he'll kill the grot oiler, but would the extra mortal wounds be allocated to the big mek? I'm pretty sure he would, even though it's a bit silly. It'd be like snipers doing a wound and a mortal wound on a 6, which causes them to potentially kill 2 models with a single bullet.

Can you give the exact wording of the rules in question?
Comparing the rules would be the first step in answering this.

Grot Oiler: When rolling to wound this unit, use the Big Mek’s
Toughness while it is on the battlefield. The death of a
Grot Oiler is ignored for the purposes of Morale tests.
The Grot Oiler is considered to have the CHARACTER
keyword for the purposes of shooting attacks

GSC has a similar situation with their familiar.

Since it is a unit of 2 models with the character rule you can assign the attack from a Vindicare to the Grot/Familiar and have that die instead, at most taking the bonus mortal wounds since those can carry over between models.

You're out of luck unfortunately, the Vindicare can't decide who dies like they could in previous editions. If you shoot a Big Mek with Grot Oiler, the defender can choose to have the Grot Oiler take the wound.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're out of luck unfortunately, the Vindicare can't decide who dies like they could in previous editions. If you shoot a Big Mek with Grot Oiler, the defender can choose to have the Grot Oiler take the wound.

I don't think this the RAW case. It seems like the Grot Oiler is a separate unit:

"Grot Oiler: When rolling to wound this unit, use the Big Meks Toughness while it is on the battlefield." - emphasis mine.

There is no mention at all in the datasheet that the Big Mek and the Grot Oiler are a single unit, like the Germinae Superia which is another example of multiple Character keywords in a unit:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia..."

The Big Mek datasheet only says that the Big Mek is "accompanied" by a Grot Oiler. As far as I'm aware what this means is not clear, but it does not constitute them forming a unit, as shown by the Germinae Superia rule. All we know is that if you decide to target the Grot Oiler (which a Vindicare can because they're able to target Characters) it has shares the Toughness of the Big Mek.

The Grot Oilers statistics are included on the Big Mek's datasheet. In all other cases where this occurs, they are considered to be the same unit. Except in cases where the datasheet is explicit in saying they are not.

shakul wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're out of luck unfortunately, the Vindicare can't decide who dies like they could in previous editions. If you shoot a Big Mek with Grot Oiler, the defender can choose to have the Grot Oiler take the wound.

I don't think this the RAW case. It seems like the Grot Oiler is a separate unit:

"Grot Oiler: When rolling to wound this unit, use the Big Meks Toughness while it is on the battlefield." - emphasis mine.

There is no mention at all in the datasheet that the Big Mek and the Grot Oiler are a single unit, like the Germinae Superia which is another example of multiple Character keywords in a unit:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia..."

The Big Mek datasheet only says that the Big Mek is "accompanied" by a Grot Oiler. As far as I'm aware what this means is not clear, but it does not constitute them forming a unit, as shown by the Germinae Superia rule. All we know is that if you decide to target the Grot Oiler (which a Vindicare can because they're able to target Characters) it has shares the Toughness of the Big Mek.

"This unit" means the two model unit of Big Mek and Grot Oiler. It's no different to how a Tactical Squad can have a Space Marine and Space Marine Sergeant in it.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

What about the extra mortal wounds the assassin does? Assuming he hits and wounds, he'll kill the grot oiler, but would the extra mortal wounds be allocated to the big mek? I'm pretty sure he would, even though it's a bit silly. It'd be like snipers doing a wound and a mortal wound on a 6, which causes them to potentially kill 2 models with a single bullet.

It really is not that silly. One shot, two kills is totally a thing in reality- it just takes a nicely lined up shot to make it happen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

shakul wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're out of luck unfortunately, the Vindicare can't decide who dies like they could in previous editions. If you shoot a Big Mek with Grot Oiler, the defender can choose to have the Grot Oiler take the wound.

I don't think this the RAW case. It seems like the Grot Oiler is a separate unit:

"Grot Oiler: When rolling to wound this unit, use the Big Meks Toughness while it is on the battlefield." - emphasis mine.

There is no mention at all in the datasheet that the Big Mek and the Grot Oiler are a single unit, like the Germinae Superia which is another example of multiple Character keywords in a unit:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia..."

The Big Mek datasheet only says that the Big Mek is "accompanied" by a Grot Oiler. As far as I'm aware what this means is not clear, but it does not constitute them forming a unit, as shown by the Germinae Superia rule. All we know is that if you decide to target the Grot Oiler (which a Vindicare can because they're able to target Characters) it has shares the Toughness of the Big Mek.

"This unit" means the two model unit of Big Mek and Grot Oiler. It's no different to how a Tactical Squad can have a Space Marine and Space Marine Sergeant in it.

Except of course that a Tactical Squad says:

"This unit contains 1 Space Marine Sergeant and 4 Space Marines"

This therefore defines them as a unit, as do all other instances where models are grouped into units. The Big Mek and Grot Oiler do not have this and can not be considered a single unit without it. The Grot Oiler "accompanies" the Big Mek, he is not a unit with him.

"This unit" is listed under "Grot Oiler" on the datasheet and at no point does it state it includes the Big Mek. You are inferring that.

shakul wrote:

Except of course that a Tactical Squad says:

"This unit contains 1 Space Marine Sergeant and 4 Space Marines"

This therefore defines them as a unit, as do all other instances where models are grouped into units. The Big Mek and Grot Oiler do not have this and can not be considered a single unit without it. The Grot Oiler "accompanies" the Big Mek, he is not a unit with him.

"This unit" is listed under "Grot Oiler" on the datasheet and at no point does it state it includes the Big Mek. You are inferring that.

You do know that different units have different minimum sizes, right?

A Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun is a single model armed with a shokk attack gun and stikkbombs. It may be accompanied by a Grot Oiler.

This unit contains 1 Space Marine Sergeant and 4 Space Marines. It can include up to 5 additional Space Marines

It's a Big Mek unit that has the option of taking an additional model.

"This unit" refers to the combined two model unit. You can choose to ignore that if you want, but that is what the rules say.

Is this going to be one of those situations that GW need to FAQ despite the rules being clear ala "If I concede do I lose?"?

I've already shown you an example of a minimum Character unit of 1 that groups other Character keywords to for a unit: Germinae Superia:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia"

The unit is therefore a single Germinae. This unit can then be expanded by adding another Germinae Superia to it.

The Tactical Squad is defined as a unit of 4 Tatical Marines and 1 Sergeant. This unit can then be expanded upon.

The Big Mek is never defined as a unit to be expanded upon by the Grot Oiler. It is a model that can be accompanied by a Grot Oiler.

You're saying "this unit" refers to the combined two model unit without actually demonstrating where they are given permission to be considered a unit together; because they aren't. They are two models, one accompanies the other - what ever "accompanies" means.

I think RAW accompanies means "must be within unit coherency, acts as a unit, and wounds can be allocated to either model when they are obtained" and that only started being questioned when people started realizing it might give them a gameplay advantage to be "confused" by the rule.

shakul wrote:
I've already shown you an example of a minimum Character unit of 1 that groups other Character keywords to for a unit: Germinae Superia:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia"

The unit is therefore a single Germinae. This unit can then be expanded by adding another Germinae Superia to it.

The Tactical Squad is defined as a unit of 4 Tatical Marines and 1 Sergeant. This unit can then be expanded upon.

The Big Mek is never defined as a unit to be expanded upon by the Grot Oiler. It is a model that can be accompanied by a Grot Oiler.

You're saying "this unit" refers to the combined two model unit without actually demonstrating where they are given permission to be considered a unit together; because they aren't. They are two models, one accompanies the other - what ever "accompanies" means.

Well by that logic we also don't know that dice are meant to be numbered 1 though 6.

You need to parse the game rules via the English Language. It sucks that GW are never consistent but those are the breaks. It's a single unit, period.

shakul wrote:
I've already shown you an example of a minimum Character unit of 1 that groups other Character keywords to for a unit: Germinae Superia:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia"

The unit is therefore a single Germinae. This unit can then be expanded by adding another Germinae Superia to it.

The Tactical Squad is defined as a unit of 4 Tatical Marines and 1 Sergeant. This unit can then be expanded upon.

The Big Mek is never defined as a unit to be expanded upon by the Grot Oiler. It is a model that can be accompanied by a Grot Oiler.

You're saying "this unit" refers to the combined two model unit without actually demonstrating where they are given permission to be considered a unit together; because they aren't. They are two models, one accompanies the other - what ever "accompanies" means.

The grot oiler would have to be specified to be a separate unit in order for that to be. You have no permission to treat it as a separate unit otherwise. Datasheets contain the data for making a unit, not for making multiple units through adding options unless otherwise specified on the datasheet itself.

shakul wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're out of luck unfortunately, the Vindicare can't decide who dies like they could in previous editions. If you shoot a Big Mek with Grot Oiler, the defender can choose to have the Grot Oiler take the wound.

I don't think this the RAW case. It seems like the Grot Oiler is a separate unit:

"Grot Oiler: When rolling to wound this unit, use the Big Meks Toughness while it is on the battlefield." - emphasis mine.

There is no mention at all in the datasheet that the Big Mek and the Grot Oiler are a single unit, like the Germinae Superia which is another example of multiple Character keywords in a unit:

"This unit contain 1 Germinae Superia. It can include 1 additional Germinae Superia..."

The Big Mek datasheet only says that the Big Mek is "accompanied" by a Grot Oiler. As far as I'm aware what this means is not clear, but it does not constitute them forming a unit, as shown by the Germinae Superia rule. All we know is that if you decide to target the Grot Oiler (which a Vindicare can because they're able to target Characters) it has shares the Toughness of the Big Mek.

If they were separate units there would be no need to have any rule about what toughness to use...Shoot bik mek? Surprise surprise big mek's T is used...

OP, what bonus mortal wounds? If you kill a model (not unit) then Head Shot doesn’t kick in, so there are no MW to worry about. So Grot Oiler chosen to take the bullet, dies, attack finishes.

It also says that the Grot's death is ignored for the purposes of morale - it wouldn't need to say that unless it is a single unit of two models.

I encountered this issue while playing against an opponent's Vindicare and he refused to accept that the grot could take the wound, even though I was certain it could. He looked at the Vindicare rule that says "this unit can target a CHARACTER even if it is not the closest" and interpreted that as meaning he could choose to allocate to any CHARACTER, even when the unit consists of more than one CHARACTER. I'm sure that's not the intention though.

that literally only means he ignores character protection.

Snipers do not target specific models anymore. They did in previous editions.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
that literally only means he ignores character protection.

Snipers do not target specific models anymore. They did in previous editions.

Thanks, that was also my way of looking at it. Unfortunately, my opponent wouldn't have it! Although I think it is clear enough, sometimes rules could be better-written to avoid arguments from people who don't want the time to look at in context. So something like "ignores the restriction on targeting CHARACTERS that are not the closest model" or something like that might have been better, I suppose.

For the purpose of Characters, aside from Rein and Raus, I can't think of a UNIT that has multiple Characters. I am of the opinion that a Vindicare can target a MODEL in that case, because each is a seperate character, and he can target any character he can see, regardless of distance.

Then the question becomes, are there units of multiple Characters that are no different? Like a unit of....lieutenants? Can those still group up? I honestly can't think of a way you can tell a vindicaire he doesn't get to choose which character dies.

TL;DR, the Grot is either part of the singular model, in whichcase it's an ability and thus blocks the shot, or it's a seperate model, and a character, therefor the vindicaire chooses the target. Simple.

There's actually quite a few Character units which consist of multiple models.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For the purpose of Characters, aside from Rein and Raus, I can't think of a UNIT that has multiple Characters. I am of the opinion that a Vindicare can target a MODEL in that case, because each is a seperate character, and he can target any character he can see, regardless of distance.

Then the question becomes, are there units of multiple Characters that are no different? Like a unit of....lieutenants? Can those still group up? I honestly can't think of a way you can tell a vindicaire he doesn't get to choose which character dies.

TL;DR, the Grot is either part of the singular model, in whichcase it's an ability and thus blocks the shot, or it's a seperate model, and a character, therefor the vindicaire chooses the target. Simple.

Nooope. You don’t get to choose how I allocate wounds in my unit, unless a special rule somehow overrides core. The Grot and the Mel are a two-model unit with the CHARACTER Keyword. I can allocate incoming attacks as per any other multiple model unit. Simple.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For the purpose of Characters, aside from Rein and Raus, I can't think of a UNIT that has multiple Characters. I am of the opinion that a Vindicare can target a MODEL in that case, because each is a seperate character, and he can target any character he can see, regardless of distance.

Then the question becomes, are there units of multiple Characters that are no different? Like a unit of....lieutenants? Can those still group up? I honestly can't think of a way you can tell a vindicare he doesn't get to choose which character dies.

TL;DR, the Grot is either part of the singular model, in whichcase it's an ability and thus blocks the shot, or it's a seperate model, and a character, therefor the vindicare chooses the target. Simple.

Celestine and her Gemini used to be a unit of characters.
Sniper overwrite the character targeting restrictions oh needing to be the closest unit. No where does it say it lets you chose who takes the wound, that is up to the defending player.

This model can target a CHARACTER even
if it is not the closest enemy unit

This clearly overwrites the limitation for closest unit.
Where does it say it overwrites wound allocation?
(note rule is from the index, not the WD since I don't have that at hand right now, I assume the wording is still the same)

If you encounter a cheesy opponent who claims the grot is a separate model, cheese him back. Target the grot first. When it dies use double kill and shoot the big mek. This is possible because the stratagem says you must shoot at a different target. It doesnt say different model, or different unit. The big mek is a different target.

Nevermind. Read the character rules. It is a unit of two models. Both with character keyword. So yes, it's got armor against a single sniper wound.

Why would claiming the Grot is a separate model be cheese? It literally has it's own line of characteristics. It has a BS, a WS, a S, a T, a W, an A, and a Save.

As for the Strat, are you sure you're interpreting it right? Cuz you target units, not models. If you already targeted the Big Mek unit (of which the Grot is a part of) and the Grot took the hit, then how can you target the same unit again?

Agreed, cant target the big mek, its the same unit.

Hate to necro, but the exact wording this unit may target 'A character". It does not say may target "a unit". So the exact wording leads to the belief that you can target either "character". No where in the character page does it say "unit" under targeting rules.

For that you need to go back to old FAQs. Of which, I am not able to cite. I simply saying the rules as written, with no further back ground, lead to this, and I understand how this could be confused.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Hate to necro, but the exact wording this unit may target 'A character". It does not say may target "a unit". So the exact wording leads to the belief that you can target either "character". No where in the character page does it say "unit" under targeting rules.

For that you need to go back to old FAQs. Of which, I am not able to cite. I simply saying the rules as written, with no further back ground, lead to this, and I understand how this could be confused.

Even if you target a character, the wound is still assigned to the unit as per shooting rules which then the controller of the unit can allocate to either model.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Hate to necro, but the exact wording this unit may target 'A character". It does not say may target "a unit". So the exact wording leads to the belief that you can target either "character". No where in the character page does it say "unit" under targeting rules.

For that you need to go back to old FAQs. Of which, I am not able to cite. I simply saying the rules as written, with no further back ground, lead to this, and I understand how this could be confused.

It doesn't say target a model that is a CHARACTER. Without specific permission to target individual models you have to follow the default of targeting a unit, in this case a CHARACTER unit.