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2019/06/03 19:36:52
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
The Daemon Prince index entry is still causing the occasional conflict. Can someone provide convincing precedent one way or the other that does not simply cite BattleScribe's github or similarly circular arguments? This topic seems to refuse to fade away on certain discussion boards.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/03 19:46:13
2019/06/03 19:40:58
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters: why is this still a point of discussion?
Forlorn_ Hope wrote: As title. Can someone provide convincing precedent one way or the other that does not simply cite BattleScribe's github or similarly circular arguments?
... what exactly are you asking about? The thread title really isn't clear at all.
2019/06/03 19:41:26
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters: why is this still a point of discussion?
Forlorn_ Hope wrote: As title. Can someone provide convincing precedent one way or the other that does not simply cite BattleScribe's github or similarly circular arguments?
It would help if you could explain what the actual problem is? I am just guessing here, but if you mean "Why can't my 'Daemon Prince of Nurgle' take an Index Warp Bolter from the 'Daemon Prince' datasheet as per the BRBFAQ flowchart?", it's because 'Daemon Prince of Nurgle' datasheet is not a 'Daemon Prince' datasheet so therefore does not have that option, any more than a Rhino can take the options a Rhino Primaris has access to.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/03 19:42:51
2019/06/03 19:44:34
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters: why is this still a point of discussion?
Forlorn_ Hope wrote: As title. Can someone provide convincing precedent one way or the other that does not simply cite BattleScribe's github or similarly circular arguments?
It would help if you could explain what the actual problem is? I am just guessing here, but if you mean "Why can't my 'Daemon Prince of Nurgle' take an Index Warp Bolter from the 'Daemon Prince' datasheet as per the BRBFAQ flowchart?", it's because 'Daemon Prince of Nurgle' datasheet is not a 'Daemon Prince' datasheet so therefore does not have that option, any more than a Rhino can take the options a Rhino Primaris has access to.
Fixed title for better explanation. I'm on the no Warp Bolter side, FWIW.
2019/06/03 19:46:28
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
BaconCatBug wrote: Not sure why you brought up the Github arguments, since they also say they can't take Warp Bolters (because that's what the rules actually say).
Are we reading different postings? BattleScribe refuses to correct this issue and it's leading to a fair amount of misapplication of the rules.
BaconCatBug wrote: Not sure why you brought up the Github arguments, since they also say they can't take Warp Bolters (because that's what the rules actually say).
Are we reading different postings? BattleScribe refuses to correct this issue and it's leading to a fair amount of misapplication of the rules.
I don't know what version of the files you have but I just installed the latest version manually from Github and Daemon Prince of Nurgle can't take a Warp Bolter. https://i.imgur.com/xnZPr88.png
2019/06/03 20:11:33
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Therin lies the problem. The inconsistency through bad execution is causing contention, and the latest Designers Commentary only exacerbated the matter by bringing back bad arguments for Warp Bolters under a different light.
Are the pro-Warp Bolter crowds simply arguing in bad faith, at this point?
2019/06/03 20:20:21
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Battlescribe will always be inaccurate. If you use it as the sole rules source you shouldn't complain about a DQ you get if you roll up to a tournament without double checking everything.
2019/06/03 20:23:34
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
It would be so nice to just get a clear statement from GW on this one. It seems obvious enough that DPoT, et al., aren't CSM Daemon Princes, yet plenty would argue otherwise.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/03 20:46:01
2019/06/03 21:05:41
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Octopoid wrote: I can argue that a chair is a table and a table is a frog all I want. Doesn't make me right.
In this case, BCB is correct; a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" is not a "Daemon Prince."
I think the other people are arguing based upon the entry in the Organized Events section of the main rulebook FAQ:
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines, the Daemon Prince of Chaos datasheet from Codex:
Chaos Daemons, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from
Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different
datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) No. For the purposes of these guidelines all these
datasheets are all considered to be the same.
There's a distinct lack of mention of the Daemon Prince datasheet from the Index in the above, so we aren't instructed to treat it the same as the others, and you can't take wargear from the index datasheet for a "Daemon Prince of (fill in the Chaos God's name here)" from the Legion Codexes.
2019/06/03 21:28:49
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Octopoid wrote: I can argue that a chair is a table and a table is a frog all I want. Doesn't make me right.
In this case, BCB is correct; a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" is not a "Daemon Prince."
Spoiler:
I think the other people are arguing based upon the entry in the Organized Events section of the main rulebook FAQ:
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines, the Daemon Prince of Chaos datasheet from Codex:
Chaos Daemons, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from
Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different
datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) No. For the purposes of these guidelines all these
datasheets are all considered to be the same.
There's a distinct lack of mention of the Daemon Prince datasheet from the Index in the above, so we aren't instructed to treat it the same as the others, and you can't take wargear from the index datasheet for a "Daemon Prince of (fill in the Chaos God's name here)" from the Legion Codexes.
Except that, if "all these datasheets are all considered to be the same." and the "Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space Marines" can get a Warp Bolter, the others have access to it as well, since all these datasheets are all considered to be the same."
If anyone argues that the other datasheets can not get a weapon that the "Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space Marines" can get, then those datasheets are not considered to be the same.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2019/06/03 21:31:28
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Octopoid wrote: I can argue that a chair is a table and a table is a frog all I want. Doesn't make me right.
In this case, BCB is correct; a "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" is not a "Daemon Prince."
I think the other people are arguing based upon the entry in the Organized Events section of the main rulebook FAQ:
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines, the Daemon Prince of Chaos datasheet from Codex:
Chaos Daemons, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from
Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different
datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) No. For the purposes of these guidelines all these
datasheets are all considered to be the same.
There's a distinct lack of mention of the Daemon Prince datasheet from the Index in the above, so we aren't instructed to treat it the same as the others, and you can't take wargear from the index datasheet for a "Daemon Prince of (fill in the Chaos God's name here)" from the Legion Codexes.
It literally says "For the purposes of these guidelines", not for any other guidelines.
2019/06/03 21:46:45
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
My understanding of that FAQ is that it refers to the "Rule of 3". So, you could take 3 of each kind of Daemon Prince.
Also: I agree with BCB. A lot of Factions of multiple peeps with similar names (Orkz have a multiple Big Mekz, for example). They're considered different Units and have different wargear options.
2019/06/03 22:08:15
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Except that, if "all these datasheets are all considered to be the same."
...for the purpose of Organized Events guidelines.
Take care not to use rules quotes without full context.
[So many edits for formatting. I need to get better at hitting "Preview" first...]
Yep, I was clearly talking about Organized Events.
And from what I have seen, the majority of players play as if they are in "Organized Events" during pick up games.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2019/06/03 22:49:59
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Except that, if "all these datasheets are all considered to be the same."
...for the purpose of Organized Events guidelines.
Take care not to use rules quotes without full context.
[So many edits for formatting. I need to get better at hitting "Preview" first...]
Yep, I was clearly talking about Organized Events.
And from what I have seen, the majority of players play as if they are in "Organized Events" during pick up games.
For the purposes of these guidelines is referring to the rule of three. Use some context. It is not saying they are literally the same data sheet.
And all that goes with it.
Schrodinger's Datasheet...
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2019/06/04 01:27:21
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
"ORGANISED EVENT GUIDELINES – REPEATED DATASHEET CLARIFICATION
If you are attending an event that is using the updated Organised Events guidelines table, it restricts the number of
times a particular datasheet can be included in your army. A few common questions have arisen from this, in particular
whether certain units from different codexes that are describing the same model(s) (such as Daemon Princes of
Nurgle and Daemon Princes of Chaos) count as being different datasheets for the purposes of this guideline. We
have previously answered this question as ‘yes’, but since then we have released Codex: Genestealer Cults where, with the
introduction of datasheets to describe Cult and Brood Brothers versions of certain Astra Militarum units (Leman
Russes, Sentinels etc.), there are a growing number of such datasheets. We have, therefore, taken this as a good time to
review our previous answer and take the feedback we have received into account. Having done so, we have concluded
that whilst the original answer was true to the ‘letter of the restriction’, it was not true to the spirit of what we were
intending. As a result, we are changing our previous answer, and providing further clarification for all other similar
units that we know of. These three clarifications will appear in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook FAQ section, but are
shown below for convenience.
Q. Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the Daemon Prince of Chaos datasheet from
Codex: Chaos Daemons, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince
of Tzeentch datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different datasheets for the purposes of the Organised
Events guidelines?
A. No. For the purposes of these guidelines, all these datasheets are considered to be the same."
That is the full context. The guidelines being referred to are the organized events guidelines table restricting the number of times a particular datasheet can be included in your army. "For the purposes of these guidelines, all these datasheets are considered to be the same." This is not literally telling you that these are the same datasheet. It applies to the above referenced guidelines only. Attempting to apply this broadly by considering the datasheets the same for index wargear is clearly not what you are being told to do. The datasheets are ONLY considered the same for the "organized events guidelines table". Nothing more.
2019/06/04 14:23:12
Subject: Re:Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Orbei wrote: [i] The datasheets are ONLY considered the same for the "organized events guidelines table". Nothing more.
Which was one of the points I was trying to make. 1) It's really talking about only applying to the rule of 3.
2) (and more importantly) it does not list the Daemon Prince Index datasheet, so even if you try to expand the statement of them being the same past the Rule of 3, they do not give permission to treat the Daemon Prince Index datasheet as the same as any Daemon Prince of (fill in the Chaos God name here). The only one who could potentially have access to the Daemon Prince Index datasheet for its wargear is a Daemon Prince vanilla datasheet, as the names are different. The others have a different name, making them as different from a normal Daemon Prince for purposes of accessing the Index datasheet as if you had Eldar Rangers from the codex trying to access the Skitarii Rangers Index datasheet for wargear options (or vice versa).
2019/06/05 08:42:43
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
You are not allowed to use the Index Datasheet to field a daemon prince anyways. If you have a daemon prince model, you must use one of the codex datasheets to represent it.
If you want a daemon prince with a warp bolter, it can only be represented by a daemon prince from Codex: CSM using the datasheet from Index:Chaos for its wargear options.
Daemon Princes of Nurgle, Tzeench and Chaos are basically new units that don't have a corresponding index datasheet, just like the "Big Mek with Shokk-Attack Gun" can't use the "Big Mek" datasheet from the index to get a KFF or a second SAG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 08:46:54
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/06/05 08:45:55
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
Jidmah wrote: You are not allowed to use the Index Datasheet to field a daemon prince anyways. If you have a daemon prince model, you must use one of the codex datasheets to represent it.
If you want a daemon prince with a warp bolter, it can only be represented by a daemon prince from Codex: CSM using the datasheet from Index:Chaos for its wargear options.
Devils Advocate: Not true, my model is not a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, it's a Daemon Prince with the Tzeentch Keyword. The only datasheet for my model is in the Index.
It's another case of GW refusing to answer question for fear of confusing or upsetting 0.001% of the playerbase, due to the ambiguous wording of the flowchart.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/05 08:47:32
2019/06/05 08:49:42
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
BaconCatBug wrote: Devils Advocate: Not true, my model is not a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, it's a Daemon Prince with the Tzeentch Keyword. The only datasheet for my model is in the Index.
I have proven you wrong on this before, go read that up. Your model does not have keywords until you pick a datasheet. You are not allowed to pick a datasheet from an index if there is a datasheet from a codex to represent it.
It's another case of GW refusing to answer question for fear of confusing or upsetting 0.001% of the playerbase.
Not, this is just the usual issue of you refusing to acknowledge that your interpretation of how keywords work is wrong.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/06/05 08:53:32
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
BaconCatBug wrote: Devils Advocate: Not true, my model is not a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, it's a Daemon Prince with the Tzeentch Keyword. The only datasheet for my model is in the Index.
I have proven you wrong on this before, go read that up. Your model does not have keywords until you pick a datasheet. You are not allowed to pick a datasheet from an index if there is a datasheet from a codex to represent it.
It's another case of GW refusing to answer question for fear of confusing or upsetting 0.001% of the playerbase.
Not, this is just the usual issue of you refusing to acknowledge that your interpretation of how keywords work is wrong.
My Thousand Sons Daemon Prince who is not a "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" doesn't have a datasheet in the Thousand Sons codex or the CSM codex, so I get to use the Index Datasheet.
Also, I am actually of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to use the Index Datasheet but it is not in any way, shape, or form clear that this is the case. If I had my way Indexes would be removed from Matched Play (since in Narrative and Open the rules don't matter anyway) and it would sort the whole issue out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 08:53:45
2019/06/05 09:08:24
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
BaconCatBug wrote: My Thousand Sons Daemon Prince who is not a "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" doesn't have a datasheet in the Thousand Sons codex or the CSM codex, so I get to use the Index Datasheet.
First of all, there is no such thing as a "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" model. You have a daemon prince model (any of the 7 citadel miniatures made so far) that might have paint job matching one of the TS colors schemes. You yourself frequently post "paint jobs do not have an impact on rules". When you need to select a datasheet for that model, you will find that it can be represented by the Daemon Prince of Tzeench datasheet, the Daemon Prince datasheet or the Daemon Prince of Chaos Datasheet. If you pick the Daemon Prince datasheet, you must use the version from the codex and thus cannot replace its <Legion> keyword with THOUSAND SONS. Or you pick one of the other two, then the answer to "ARE THERE WARGEAR OPTIONS FOR YOUR MODEL THAT ONLY APPEAR IN THE INDEX VERSION OF ITS DATASHEET?" is "No" since there is no index version of those datasheets and thus no wargear options that appear on them.
Also, I am actually of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to use the Index Datasheet but it is not in any way, shape, or form clear that this is the case. If I had my way Indexes would be removed from Matched Play (since in Narrative and Open the rules don't matter anyway) and it would sort the whole issue out.
Except RAW say that you pick datasheets for your models when building your army. RAW prevent you from picking a datasheets from an index if a datasheet for that model exists in a codex.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/05 09:11:35
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/06/05 09:11:05
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
BaconCatBug wrote: My Thousand Sons Daemon Prince who is not a "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" doesn't have a datasheet in the Thousand Sons codex or the CSM codex, so I get to use the Index Datasheet.
First of all, there is no such thing as a "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" model. You have a daemon prince model (any of the 7 citadel miniatures made so far) that might have paint job matching one of the TS colors schemes. You yourself frequently post "paint jobs do not have an impact on rules".
When you need to select a datasheet for that model, you will find that it can be represented by the Daemon Prince of Tzeench datasheet, the Daemon Prince datasheet or the Daemon Prince of Chaos Datasheet. If you pick the Daemon Prince datasheet, you must use the version from the codex and thus cannot replace its <Legion> keyword with THOUSAND SONS. Or you pick one of the other two, then the answer to "ARE THERE WARGEAR OPTIONS FOR YOUR MODEL THAT ONLY APPEAR IN THE INDEX VERSION OF ITS DATASHEET?" is "No" since there is no index version of those datasheets and thus not wargear options that appear on them.
Also, I am actually of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to use the Index Datasheet but it is not in any way, shape, or form clear that this is the case. If I had my way Indexes would be removed from Matched Play (since in Narrative and Open the rules don't matter anyway) and it would sort the whole issue out.
Except RAW say that you pick datasheets for your models when building your army. RAW prevent you from picking a datasheets from an index if a datasheet for that model exists in a codex.
See, that line of reasoning also leads to you being forced to use Space Wolf Rhinos and nothing else. And they call me unreasonable!
2019/06/05 09:15:49
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
BaconCatBug wrote: See, that line of reasoning also leads to you being forced to use Space Wolf Rhinos and nothing else. And they call me unreasonable!
I'd say jumping from "codex replaces index datasheets" which is RAW to "Spacewolves replace all other codices!!!" is the very definition of unreasonable and also dishonest.
This is just the usual issue of you refusing to acknowledge that your interpretation of how keywords work is wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's really sad how you throw RAW under the bus when it doesn't support your arguments, while still claiming to a RAW purist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 09:17:17
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/06/05 09:39:14
Subject: Niche Daemon Princes and Warp Bolters--can Tsons or DG take them?
RAW I have to agree with BCB and the others here - they are different Datasheets and so don't inherit from the Index. So no Warp Bolters. I would assume tournaments would rule this way unless I heard specifically otherwise from the organisers.
In practice, many groups do allow it. Partly because it's easier to just go with Battlescribe and partly because intuitively it feels like they should get them. Basically, talk to your group. If everyone you play is allowing it then you don't have a problem - even if it is a house rule technically.
