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TLDR So I know this sounds ridiculous, but what can I do to lose matches?
Backstory: I've been trying to get my friend into 40K. Now before anyone has a problem with this, his entire army (Tyranids) are 3D printed... (I run some 3D printed stuff too because it's really cheap for testing purposes)
Back to the story. I've played about a dozen matches against him. Some with my normal T'au, some with some Tempestus Scions (A unit of 6-8), and even a round with his Genestealers and him using the IG. I have beat him every. single. time. He says it doesn't bother him, but winning every time feels wrong. Should I let him have a point advantage, and if so, how much? I tend to stomp him, killing his entire army and only losing a few myself.

Lists:
'Nids: 1x Exocrine, 1x Carnifex (Monstrous ST, Venom Cannon), 3x Raveners (One w/ RC, rest have ST), 7x Genestealers (RC).
T'au: (Usually a unit or two is left out) 1x Hammerhead (BC & Railgun), 2x Crisis XV-8's (Missile pods on one, BC's on the other), Literally 2 firewarriors, DS8 (SMS) and a markerlight drone. Also I used to run 3 XV-25's (2 w/ Burst, one w/ Fusion)
IG: Literally just 8 Kasrkins as Tempestus Scions and probably soon a Basilisk.
Tips? *Also, if this belongs somewhere else, sorry, I'm not good at navigating where to post stuff yet.

A few questions

1) Your army lists that you show appear rather abnormal. For example they both appear to lack command choices and I wasn't aware that you could take only 2 fire warriors in a single unit?
If you're playing outside the rules somewhat then some combos are going to work better than others - for example you don't list a single synapse creature for the tyranids so they are already playing at a disadvantage.

2) If you keep winning over and over assess what's happening and work out why you keep winning.
Is your opponent ignoring objectives and trying to out-kill you; are you focusing fire more effectively; is there enough terrain on the table to block line of sight*; are they blundering their attack choices - eg through anti-tank shots into infantry rather than into a tank/heavily armoured unit.

3) A means by which more experienced and less experienced players can sometimes find a middleground (beyond teaching the less experienced how to play better) is to play with a handicap. So you, being the stronger player, would take less units in points than your opponent. Giving you a points based disadvantage and thus a more challenging game.


*Tau being a very powerful ranged army will dominate utterly if there's nothing blocking line of sight across the board.

Stop playing head to head. if its just to hang out and have fun why not try something different like a attack defender scenario.

Have you tried just try playing... worse?

It looks to me like you're fielding a gunline against an army of melee units that are either slow or squishy, which isn't going to end well for the melee forces.

Alternately consider swapping armies and trying it from the other end?

Just some blunt suggestions:

1) Are you teaching your friend or just showing him enough to get him to play...and then you trounce him because you're more actively reading the rules/forums/facebook groups, etc? Are you providing instruction or advice or showcasing why things are happening? When you destroy a unit are you explaining to him why it happened and what he can do to avoid it in the future?

2) You're playing a gunline vs. a mostly melee army - are you using terrain? I don't mean scatter terrain I mean line-of-sight blocking heavy terrain. Woods, buildings, debris, natural cover? If you're playing with the average gamestore table (read: little to no cover) this outcome will never change.

3) Have you tried playing the narrative missions from the rulebook or CA or the Vigilus books? You can run points just as matched play - but the scenarios offer something other than token-chasing.

You're playing very small (bizarre) armies, and the smaller the game the harder it is for any side to survive a strong opening salvo of fire...particularly a melee one with so few models. With armies that small you should be playing on a very small table with a lot of terrain.

Thank you all. You are correct, the certain squads are outside the rules in terms of unit sizes (The 2 firewarriors is too small to technically exist), and I will try using more terrain/ a smaller table. The small armies are because he doesn't want to sink any money into 40K (Hence the 3D printed army). Neither of us know the rules terribly well, and I will try to do better with explaining why what happened went down. I'll also try the handicap and playing worse (while attempting to not make it look like I'm throwing the game, but things like advancing in dumb times or moving before firing heavy weapons.) As for the no command units/synapse creatures, I will try to remedy that.

Honestly I'd say is there a local GW store or 3rd party or club in your region which plays. You might find it more engaging for you both to have a few demo games with actual real models on the table with the full rules with a person from the shop/club who is experienced.

You'd likely get a better balanced view of the game and you'd have one person in the game who at least knows the rules well and can give a decent demo game.

Right now it seems like you're sort of cobbling the game together with bits here and there, which is ok; but it also sounds like you're both novices or operating with bits of the rules too which just means you'll confuse yourselfs and cause issues - like you've found with running a very gunline army against a very close combat army with incorrect army composition and likely not enough terrain.

Yes. try going to a store if you can and give it a go.

Otherwise buy one of the really basic sets between you (Know No Fear is it?) it's around £25. Gives you the core rules, a sort of balanced two small armies, a mat, some terrain etc. Not bad at all especially split between two of you.

With the few models you have you'd probably be better off playing Kill Team instead of proper 40k.

I'd really advise investing some money in at least a starter box or something if you want to play ACTUAL 40k.

Just play as BA. You'll start losing in a hurry

Martel732 wrote:
Just play as BA. You'll start losing in a hurry

Vanilla Marines lose even faster. Of course, if you really want to lose fast Grey Knights are the absolute bottom of the barrel.

Basically start playing real lists, then you'll get a better feel for the game.

Putting down a 200+ point unit in a small game with no HQ or troop tax? Of course you have an advantage.

 Edd Crumpett wrote:
TLDR So I know this sounds ridiculous, but what can I do to lose matches?
Backstory: I've been trying to get my friend into 40K. Now before anyone has a problem with this, his entire army (Tyranids) are 3D printed... (I run some 3D printed stuff too because it's really cheap for testing purposes)
Back to the story. I've played about a dozen matches against him. Some with my normal T'au, some with some Tempestus Scions (A unit of 6-8), and even a round with his Genestealers and him using the IG. I have beat him every. single. time. He says it doesn't bother him, but winning every time feels wrong. Should I let him have a point advantage, and if so, how much? I tend to stomp him, killing his entire army and only losing a few myself.

Lists:
'Nids: 1x Exocrine, 1x Carnifex (Monstrous ST, Venom Cannon), 3x Raveners (One w/ RC, rest have ST), 7x Genestealers (RC).
T'au: (Usually a unit or two is left out) 1x Hammerhead (BC & Railgun), 2x Crisis XV-8's (Missile pods on one, BC's on the other), Literally 2 firewarriors, DS8 (SMS) and a markerlight drone. Also I used to run 3 XV-25's (2 w/ Burst, one w/ Fusion)
IG: Literally just 8 Kasrkins as Tempestus Scions and probably soon a Basilisk.
Tips? *Also, if this belongs somewhere else, sorry, I'm not good at navigating where to post stuff yet.

UNit variety is probably hurting both your chances at normal games.

That being said: Have you tried Maelstrom missions? They are super fun. They mix things up a lot and then theres Open War cards you can use to do some fun scenarios in a more narratrive setting. Changing the basic rules of game play can make a difference.

I totally understand where you are coming from; losing is as much a part of the game as winning, and if you never get to lose you are missing out on a large part of the game's experience.

It can be fun to be on the ropes and try pull back from there or even just to try cut your losses!

Point handicaps seem a simple fix.

Maybe make it so each game you win you lose 100 points, each time you lose you gain 100 points.

Alternatively play around with some a symmetric scenarios, e.g waves of tyrannids versus a small force of tau/humans that are defending an evacuation point?

i have a friend i play that i crush every time we play.

To make things more enjoyable i do a few things:

- Diverse missions with multiple Objectives

- I build and run a super weak list. This is when i can play units i usually dont run... fun, fluffy is the goal.

- I help my friend build a strong list. I give suggestions that would help him be able to beat me.

- Game play... this is most likely the most important. I will make suggestions, point out mistakes as they happen (allow him to correct them), Suggest mission secondaries and target priorities. I let him play the game.. but i will help.

Acknowledge that these games are for fun. This has been the typical way a game will run when we play.. and its been a few years. Some people have a level of play they Peak at and it may never come close to yours...Accept that and just play for fun.

I second going to a store. Find a better player and have your friend watch you play that person.

Also second the suggestion to expand your collections.

Lastly get better at the game together. Note that sometimes, maybe even routinely, players that face each other tend to dial in to the others playstyle making it difficult to get a win. You may be inadvertently doing that. And theres nothing wrong with metagaming or tailoring your tactics to your normal opponents. But if you can show him how to do the same. Even help design lists to counter yours.

Start playing legal lists. You're not playing 40k, you're just goofing around with a handful of models. Play the game as it's intended to be played.

I think even if not legal lists you are starting way wrong for good test/learning games.

Would be better starting with say a unit of 10 fire warriors, no upgrades and single Battlesuit.
And the other side going with a unit of gaunts, maybe 20. and 2 warriors, as a single model unit each.

Good deal of box Terrain of all size you can do. And if you think you can, come up with some little missions for them to do.
Last stand can be fun, But even attacking something like a hive would be fun with a big swarm and the warriors hanging around.
You want to learn and teach the rules with units that not only are more simple, but not as much places to throw ballance off so wild.

Also, i would at least suggest getting one box each. Sit down together and chat why your build. ANd if you can paint together, if they have interest in the hobby then that is much better than trying to just get them into the game in such a wonky way.
Also maybe, if they do not want to spend to much money. Maybe kill team or other skirmish games are a better fit for you both at this time.

Morkphoiz wrote:
Start playing legal lists. You're not playing 40k, you're just goofing around with a handful of models. Play the game as it's intended to be played.

Goofing around with a handful of models is called open play. Although even there I think GW mostly intend for units to be correct.

I did end up switching to using the astra militarum list, with a ministratum priest and a Leman Russ tank added and it works better. The 'Nids also now have a Warriors and zoanthropes.

Hqs are pretty important for Tyranids, more so than most other armies. He really needs Primes, Neurothropes, broodlords, Tyrants, anything that projects Synapse better than what he had.

Also, fill out squads to at least the minimums listed in your Codexes. Even in open play that really helps with learning how to use a squad.

Don’t get too convinced in your invincibility.
There are players out there who will give you a hard time.
I’m sure you will encounter such guys.