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Either/Or wrote:
I haven’t seen anyone play warmahordes in years at the local game store.

Warmahordes has gone from being the only real competitor to 40k/warhammer to a footnote.

WMH was a real competitor to what 40k USED to be like, but that approach to wargaming is more or less diminishing to the point of irrelevance. GW has successfully shoved tournament gamers off into their own little corner, while push more skirmish and campaign play overall. The future of wargaming seems to be as much solo/cooperative experiences as competitive ones. And even if PP hadn't done everything wrong they possible could with WMH, that style of gaming is just not as omnipresent as it used to be. PP's Oblivion campaign expansion shows that they understand this, but it is probably too little, too late to save WMH as a whole.

Their models have not evolved since the original release (sculpt style, level of detail, etc).

Are you joking? They started with decent models (metal), went to absolutely the worst models in the business (PVC), and now have high quality resign models. They even dabbled in polystyrene models on sprues. Their resin models are worlds better than their PVC models. Even just talking aesthetic, you've got the original four factions, then the move to hordes, then stuff like the Grymkin and now Infernals. Their models have been constantly evolving - unfortunately, they evolved into dog poo for a while there and it has taken them a long time to evolve back into something worthwhile.

It seems like even for folks who liked the aesthetic the move to v3 killed things, in my are at least.

If you listen to people talk about the game, a lot of WMH players left before mk3 happened. Hell, most new players left by their second game. It was the least new player friendly game on the market, and the vast majority of people who tried the game didn't keep playing it. I'd be curious what the real number is, but I suspect that of every 10 people who tried the game, only 2 of them made it to a second game, and of those, only 1 of them made it to 5+ games. The typical advice for new Warmachine players is a bit Spartan - you'll lose your first twenty games badly.

Mk3 didn't kill the game. Mk2 killed the game.

they were on a slow downslope before MKIII so they introduced it early,

the MKIII made it worse and in doing so chased off some stores & core players who organised and ran things (especially one of the WM factions which were effectively unplayable and took ages to get a rewrite,

they'd invested heavily in Restic/PVC which while it was good in the short term but which is less good than HIPs and as technology evolved smaller companies were able to afford HIPs and PP were stuck with a lot of restic moulds, some metal, (some resin?) and eventually the odd bit of HIPS

they killed their forums and press gangers at the same time, and that had a major impact on organised play which is what they built their game on and a lot more of their key local 'sell the game to newbies' power vanished, and so a lot of stores stopped getting new stock in as it stopped selling, vicious circle

They depended on recruiting ex-GW players, and GW turned the corner and stopped looses people and probably started attracting some of their old players back

Lots more competition from small games and KS/boardgames

 Theophony wrote:
@NAVARRO, I think it’s a trend of the times, so many new systems popping up every year, but nothing will get to GW level as close as this did. Games need development time and checking before hitting the market, otherwise they quickly go to a second edition to fix problems and people have already gotten fed up with those problems or feel their army gets scuttled after the edition rewrite and have to shell out more for new booms and accessories. I know that’s what’s killed two skirmish games for myself. I’ve built entire range of products for two warband a and to play the new edition I need to rebuy the core rules, new cards (for all the clans because of crossover and knowing your opponents) and in one case new dice. I don’t mind an evolving system, but I’m against one that invalidates the previous one.

GW gets away with it because older models are still viable (though the new ones are better) and wherever you go most game stores will have people to play against.

It does not help that GW released plenty of their own skirmish games either. If you really want your game to stand out these days is going to need something really special.

I remember not long ago the hype around each original new PP release as opposed to GW releases which were stagnant, now the roles inverted and I fear the worst for PP. They did try with the Malifax halloween type of new faction but that was SO BAD, almost like… hey guys we are out of ideas but buy the new thing!

I still think theres space for war machine ( nice multipart plastic sprues would rock so much) but not sure about this new game I mean I rather invest in other stuff instead, there is something very wrong going on with PP atm and a new game is not going to fix that alone.

you would not know PP is in any trouble around here, their games are far more popular than GWs locally. I am very skeptical of this.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Either/Or wrote:
I haven’t seen anyone play warmahordes in years at the local game store.

Warmahordes has gone from being the only real competitor to 40k/warhammer to a footnote.

WMH was a real competitor to what 40k USED to be like, but that approach to wargaming is more or less diminishing to the point of irrelevance. GW has successfully shoved tournament gamers off into their own little corner, while push more skirmish and campaign play overall. The future of wargaming seems to be as much solo/cooperative experiences as competitive ones. And even if PP hadn't done everything wrong they possible could with WMH, that style of gaming is just not as omnipresent as it used to be. PP's Oblivion campaign expansion shows that they understand this, but it is probably too little, too late to save WMH as a whole.

Their models have not evolved since the original release (sculpt style, level of detail, etc).

Are you joking? They started with decent models (metal), went to absolutely the worst models in the business (PVC), and now have high quality resign models. They even dabbled in polystyrene models on sprues. Their resin models are worlds better than their PVC models. Even just talking aesthetic, you've got the original four factions, then the move to hordes, then stuff like the Grymkin and now Infernals. Their models have been constantly evolving - unfortunately, they evolved into dog poo for a while there and it has taken them a long time to evolve back into something worthwhile.

It seems like even for folks who liked the aesthetic the move to v3 killed things, in my are at least.

If you listen to people talk about the game, a lot of WMH players left before mk3 happened. Hell, most new players left by their second game. It was the least new player friendly game on the market, and the vast majority of people who tried the game didn't keep playing it. I'd be curious what the real number is, but I suspect that of every 10 people who tried the game, only 2 of them made it to a second game, and of those, only 1 of them made it to 5+ games. The typical advice for new Warmachine players is a bit Spartan - you'll lose your first twenty games badly.

Mk3 didn't kill the game. Mk2 killed the game.

I agree about the mk2/mk3. The height of popularity was the end of mk1. Mk2 was the knife, mk 3 the twist.

Regarding model evolution I was speaking broadly-even the new sculpts looked like something from the late 90s-early 2000s. They did have good faction identity in terms of style.

Models evolved some for the worse others for the better, some got cast in subpar materials though, so irrelevant if the sculpt quality was good if the medium used does not meet minimums standards. Not exactly the painters unicorn but fun enough to make a presence on your painting table…

Thing is, I barely see any news of new minis, hell some boutique small tiny companies make more noise about their new models than PP does, its almost like they don't care… so why should I?

I'm kind of interested - the idea of having a WM-type game but with smaller unit sizes and no gak material and 15 year old metal models killing whatever interest I had in getting started.

I was super pumped about Company of Iron and bought some of the (at the time) brand new Grymkin models to make a little warband - cleaning and assembling that god-awful PVC 100% killed my desire. (That and the nice, simple rules became a bloated mess as they added more and more to the game in every issue of NQ).

I really wish they'd just "nuke" WM/H and start over though (with smaller unit sizes, simplified rules, etc) and prune the range of some of the redundant units and actually work on replacing old metals and PVC stuff with modern resculpts.

 NAVARRO wrote:

I still think theres space for war machine ( nice multipart plastic sprues would rock so much) but not sure about this new game I mean I rather invest in other stuff instead, there is something very wrong going on with PP atm and a new game is not going to fix that alone.

I think PP has been on the upswing. Warmachine is an albatross around their neck, but Monsterpocalypse is amazing (models and gameplay) and their mini-crate stuff seems pretty cool (a bit expensive though). I think the Oblivion expansion is a move in the right direction (narrative campaigns... in WMH?!) along with a tightening of the rulebook for what a lot of people consider to be mk3.5. They are even laying off the CID changes for a while. Riot Quest is a big question mark though. I just don't know if the market needs Shadespire, Aristeia, Super Fantasy Brawl, AND Riot Quest...

Personally, I don't think they can save WMH, as is, without going full on 8th Edition rewrite on it, but that's probably why they are launching Warcasters in 2020.

I can see some potential with this new game, but pushing the timeline forward 5k years doesn’t get me excited. I can only hope this proves lucrative for them.

A lot of folks have presented interesting points as to why PP has seen a decline.
I think the forum and press granger loss was certainly a factor.
I personally thought MK3 was an improvement over MK2, but it did feel rushed.
I never got into their ‘X-files’ inspired sci-fi stuff, and most of their other board games seemed to kind of fall flat to me.
The bad plastic they had, when GW was switching off of metal hurt too, even in the face of finecast.
The price gouging turn, where they blocked a bunch of places selling stuff cheaper online was bad. If it had made more LGS’ stock more stuff, I’d have been fine with it, but they literally purged everything they had, right when that happened. The biggest LGS near me in Los Angeles doesn’t even stock PP stuff anymore. And this was a place that used to have warmahorde & Monsterpocalypse gaming groups and tournies, just a few years ago.
Exiling the old plastic Monsterpocalypse figures to the isle of misfit toys was a bad move too.

The newer stuff looks promising. Though not all of it excites me personally, it’s still a step forward.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

I still think theres space for war machine ( nice multipart plastic sprues would rock so much) but not sure about this new game I mean I rather invest in other stuff instead, there is something very wrong going on with PP atm and a new game is not going to fix that alone.

I think PP has been on the upswing. Warmachine is an albatross around their neck, but Monsterpocalypse is amazing (models and gameplay) and their mini-crate stuff seems pretty cool (a bit expensive though). I think the Oblivion expansion is a move in the right direction (narrative campaigns... in WMH?!) along with a tightening of the rulebook for what a lot of people consider to be mk3.5. They are even laying off the CID changes for a while. Riot Quest is a big question mark though. I just don't know if the market needs Shadespire, Aristeia, Super Fantasy Brawl, AND Riot Quest...

Personally, I don't think they can save WMH, as is, without going full on 8th Edition rewrite on it, but that's probably why they are launching Warcasters in 2020.

I have yet to locally see any signs of PP slowing down. maybe we are an anomoly on this side of the rockies, but PP pretty much runs the show, with guild ball being the only game to see more table time. I would guess that some places its doing poorly, some its not. of the 8 or so FLGS around here, only 2 really carry any GW (and one is the GW), and all but the GW carries PP. Malifaux on the other hand (one of my personal favorites) seems extinct.

 skullking wrote:

Exiling the old plastic Monsterpocalypse figures to the isle of misfit toys was a bad move too.

I don't think anybody but PP knows what happened with MonPoc 1E, but I don't think it was PP's decision. They were very verbal about the game on their blog, and had shown designs and green stuff models-in-progress for the next set of models, then nothing - absolute radio silence for YEARS, not even admitting that the game existed. It was so frustrating and weird. Some people blame the movie rights being optioned, but nobody knows for sure. PP has never said.

I don't get it. Is this announcement about the end of Privateer Press or their new game ? Why all the doom and gloom if this is the second instance ?

After all, it's not the first time PP launch another game more or less related to Warmachine's universe.

So, it's a SF game, clearly skirmish level with the possibility to make your own character ? Heh, why not. I was always annoyed that you were forced to play with the same old named characters like every battle in Warmachine/Horde was led by one of them. Though it's a bit weird they keep calling themselves warcasters five thousand years later, but you have to remind people it's the guys who made Warmachine who are behind this game, I guess.

Kinda neither? Its a re-posting of a summary of a twitch announcement, with very little detail, so people are reminiscing about what they know about PP.


As far as Sci-War (5k? It is going to need a subtitle, because the official title is gak) goes, its pretty confusing to have 'warcasters' with no magic. Those would be jack marshals- that's already a canonical thing.

Anyway, I seem to remember them kicking this idea around for a while, back when they had message boards and a fanbase. That and a naval game got rumored a lot.

Once they start releasing images and rules, we'll see if its worth paying attention to.

I think they dropped the ball with the announcement by not having some artwork to show what the setting will be like as people are going to do just what was at the start of this thread and fill in their own idea and ultimately be disappointed because it wasn't what they were imagining.

Gonna have to see some artwork at least before I jump to any conclusions.

I've always enjoyed Privateer's models. Maybe we'll get some Space Skorne? I still want a Xerxis resculpt of some sort and I don't care where he shows up.

I want my Taishi Ci of the Iron Kingdoms reborn!

The core problem of Warmachine is that games have a finite lifespan and it has reached its natural death around the middle of Mk2. Everything after that was just artificial life support adding stupid nonsense to the game when all meaningful design space had already been filled. Only GW seems to be able to reinvent the wheel ad nauseam and a lot of that is down to its massive production capacity that allows it to support more than a dozen factions per system and a clunky but wide open ruleset that allows for an infinite variety of units at the cost of tactical depth and balance.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The core problem of Warmachine is that games have a finite lifespan and it has reached its natural death around the middle of Mk2. Everything after that was just artificial life support adding stupid nonsense to the game when all meaningful design space had already been filled. Only GW seems to be able to reinvent the wheel ad nauseam and a lot of that is down to its massive production capacity that allows it to support more than a dozen factions per system and a clunky but wide open ruleset that allows for an infinite variety of units at the cost of tactical depth and balance.

I don't really agree with the lifespan thing, too many games have carried on over the years.

Their big problem was (both at the end of mk1 and during mk3 development) was an inability to restrain themselves. A lot of the mechanics were messy, and they needed multiple paragraphs and sub-clauses to make them work as intended. For all that people applauded them for having a 'tight ruleset,' they really didn't. They just ironed problems flat with word salad- which is why the 'run' rule (double move, no other actions) is three flipping paragraphs long. Infinite variety isn't what I think of in warmachine. Its a clunky system with specific areas of focus- speed, high Defense, high armor, high damage or gimmicks to get around one or more of the above. The useful units are very samey, regardless of what faction they're in, and a lot of even the unique abilities are just copypasta, except better or worse. (for example, knockdown everybody vs knockdown everybody who isn't amphibious)

That and just the way the game was built made units clearly divide into 'must take' and 'never take,' and the company promoted that mindset for a long, long time. Up until they purged their forums and fanbase of folks who played as they obviously intended.

So remember when a number of designers suddenly left the company several months ago? Suspect this may have been the reason.

This still feels like a bad April Fools joke and if it weren't for the video, I would think that.

Don't know if this is them trying to pull a hail mary by tossing out their old players and starting anew? But as others noted, it's no longer the early 2000's. For those that don't want GW, there is a slew of others games and for trying to be like GW, there's GW.

 silent25 wrote:
So remember when a number of designers suddenly left the company several months ago? Suspect this may have been the reason.

This still feels like a bad April Fools joke and if it weren't for the video, I would think that.

Don't know if this is them trying to pull a hail mary by tossing out their old players and starting anew? But as others noted, it's no longer the early 2000's. For those that don't want GW, there is a slew of others games and for trying to be like GW, there's GW.

Remember that other company that Tossed out their old players/collectors and then launched a completely (drastically) new version (this time, with pre-painted plastics made in China)?

Where is Rackham and Confrontation nowadays? (You don’t have to answer, and if you don’t know or remember...look em up).


There’s a little more to it that’s that, and this isn’t exactly the same situation, but alienating your existing fan-base usually doesn’t bode well. GW had a rough start with AoS, with lots of disenfranchised WFB players shouting their displeasure quite emphatically....GW was able to weather that and throw tons more time and resources at it to improve it over time...but they had 40K and all of their Nostalgia-ware box sets killing it and selling like hot cakes to fund all that. It sounds like PP is hurting financially, especially with the fire-sales, the move, and the personnel reduction (and this, what looks like, Hail Mary announcement).

All that being said, I hope they stick around and make a little bit of a come-back. Competition for GW is a good thing, and I’m a big fan of the Iron Kingdoms as a fantasy IP...it’s really been fleshed out into an amazing place with some amazing stories and personalities.

Warmahorde's popularity was always going to nosedive the moment the word started getting out that GW wasn't actively spitting in your face and kicking you between the legs with every purchase. MKIII could've been the most perfect, well-written ruleset ever, but 90% of people were still going to jump ship to their ex in GW. It took GW to get as bad as it got for people to finally consider looking elsewhere, but when people have already invested thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours into their gateway drug, all it took was GW practising a basic social media presence to tempt most back even before MKIII hit.

Wargames are a social hobby and most people - at least in the UK - were still begrudging slogging with GW products just because they'd already done that for so long. Now their mates had an excuse to join them back at the table. It could've been Warmahordes, Malifaux, Infinity, whatever, but once GW stopped shooting at their feet the coveted position of "second place" was always going to screech far, far into the distance, even if they offered you a literal golden goose to stick around.

Voss wrote:


Their big problem was (both at the end of mk1 and during mk3 development) was an inability to restrain themselves. A lot of the mechanics were messy, and they needed multiple paragraphs and sub-clauses to make them work as intended. For all that people applauded them for having a 'tight ruleset,' they really didn't. They just ironed problems flat with word salad- which is why the 'run' rule (double move, no other actions) is three flipping paragraphs long.

A problem GW games "solved" by telling players to "roll off for it" whilst simultaneously still being far more wordy until AoS / 40k 8th. Given the far greater complexity of interactions, Warmachine worked well.

Infinite variety isn't what I think of in warmachine. Its a clunky system with specific areas of focus- speed, high Defense, high armor, high damage or gimmicks to get around one or more of the above. The useful units are very samey, regardless of what faction they're in, and a lot of even the unique abilities are just copypasta, except better or worse. (for example, knockdown everybody vs knockdown everybody who isn't amphibious)

That and just the way the game was built made units clearly divide into 'must take' and 'never take,' and the company promoted that mindset for a long, long time. Up until they purged their forums and fanbase of folks who played as they obviously intended.

But that's exactly what I meant. They filled all the available design space, after that it was just adding stupid things like marginal variants of old units. Once that happens, a game becomes effectively unsupported, because the company is no longer injecting any fresh gameplay experiences into the system, even if they are still releasing new models. That's when games die. There are almost no games that have survived beyond this point in any real capacity.

 Fango wrote:
GW had a rough start with AoS, with lots of disenfranchised WFB players shouting their displeasure quite emphatically...

Yeah, but... water is also wet, right?

AoS was a brave move that they had the resources to pull off. Yeah, internet-based complainants complained but they were also breathing, so what else did anyone expect them to do? At least AoS gave them something tangible to complain about.

PP could play a blinder with this if they handle it "better" (although I actually don't think GW handled AoS badly. Warhammer was dying and they decided it was better to put a crossbow bolt through it's skull instead of allowing it to limp along for another decade). If it's really true that Warmahordes has been basically abandoned then what harm can this do? They can use the original game as a stepping-off point to create an entirely new game system with a unique style and aesthetic of its own.

I actually tried to get into Warmachine/Hordes a few years back. Bought the two main starter sets as well as a bunch of blisters and boxed units. I enjoyed painting them up, but the plastic material ("Restic"?) was awful and an absolute pain to work with. Beyond that, I wasn't hugely taken by the game mechanics, and ended up really seeing it as a hugely overcooked card game with a miniature aspect bolted on... I liked it, but I wasn't hugely blown away by it. Then I bought into Infinity and forgot about it.

I don't really know what WNM can bring to the table that'll solve Privateer's basic problems. The writeup suggests they're still using the basic warcaster and jacks army composition, and presumably something of the old character designs will remain as well. If this will just be WMH with a weak facelift, it's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I don't really know what WNM can bring to the table that'll solve Privateer's basic problems. The writeup suggests they're still using the basic warcaster and jacks army composition, and presumably something of the old character designs will remain as well. If this will just be WMH with a weak facelift, it's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the core idea of a small skirmish game based around a general, champions and then minions. But there are definitely better ways to do it, ruleswise, than Warmachine.

If it is indeed simply a facelift, retaining the rules, then I'm out straight away.

As a long time WM/H player and a “critical fanboy” of PP I am a little mystified at who the company is aiming this game at. I will hold off any judgement about the game until I actually see 1) Models 2) the prices and 3) the rules for it. But I cant see anybody who is deep into 40K or Infinity etc, jumping ship for a futuristic game made by PP. Anybody who wants to play a game that is as clean but competitive as WM/H is probably already playing it. Existing players of WM/H are a little taken aback and sceptical about this project.

I hope PP does a good job on this. After the disastrous miss-launch of Mk3 they have really pulled it back. But im really not sure about this one.

Honestly I'm just amazed they made it sound as close to themselves making a parody version of Warhammer 40k and Age of Sigmar (Warcaster 5k, AoO) as possible.

They really could've chosen better names to head off the pass with.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Honestly I'm just amazed they made it sound as close to themselves making a parody version of Warhammer 40k and Age of Sigmar (Warcaster 5k, AoO) as possible.

They really could've chosen better names to head off the pass with.

They never called it Warcaster 5k. That’s just what the write up said.

Oh my mistake. I thought that was indeed part of the title.

Well I hope this venture does work out for them.

 ekwatts wrote:
(although I actually don't think GW handled AoS badly. Warhammer was dying and they decided it was better to put a crossbow bolt through it's skull instead of allowing it to limp along for another decade). If it's really true that Warmahordes has been basically abandoned then what harm can this do? They can use the original game as a stepping-off point to create an entirely new game system with a unique style and aesthetic of its own.

More like they wanted an excuse to add Sigmarines to Fantasy, but couldn't find a reasonably way to do it within the bounds of the existing lore, so they just opted to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

AoS coming out of WHFB was far too drastic a move that stemmed from GW - still at the time proudly boasting it didn't listen to customer research - being unwilling to try and understand why it's sales were falling (namely that the barrier to entry and a 2000 army was much, much, much higher than the already expensive 40k due to the way Cores worked and the ruleset being trash below 1000pts). AoS was pretty much dead on arrival, but it flatlined around the time Roundtree took the helm, so they were able to salvage what was left with the General's Handbook. The rest of it's 'success' just came naturally from GW as a whole doing well, but it still holds pretty much the same popularity share compared to 40k as Fantasy did back in the day.

As merciful as I've been on my opinion of PP compared to GW, Warcaster 5000 sounds about as absurd as AoS and not in a good way.

I can't be the only one who see Warcasters as a good opportunity for PP? I just hope the name "warcasters" doesn't become as ironic as "warmachine" did.

 Arbitrator wrote:

AoS coming out of WHFB was far too drastic a move that stemmed from GW - still at the time proudly boasting it didn't listen to customer research - being unwilling to try and understand why it's sales were falling (namely that the barrier to entry and a 2000 army was much, much, much higher than the already expensive 40k due to the way Cores worked and the ruleset being trash below 1000pts). AoS was pretty much dead on arrival, but it flatlined around the time Roundtree took the helm, so they were able to salvage what was left with the General's Handbook. The rest of it's 'success' just came naturally from GW as a whole doing well, but it still holds pretty much the same popularity share compared to 40k as Fantasy did back in the day.

As merciful as I've been on my opinion of PP compared to GW, Warcaster 5000 sounds about as absurd as AoS and not in a good way.

Woah. I think we're far enough from the launch of AoS, with enough hindsight to see that AoS was probably the smartest and most important thing GW has ever done. Not only did it become the blueprint for the popular 8th edition of 40k, but it also set the standard for the way GW made its games. That whole "Three Ways to Play" was extremely important, and it came from Age of Sigmar. But they had to codify the idea that "sometimes, this isn't for you" so that the whiners finally got it through their skulls that the world didn't revolve around what they alone wanted. Adding pitched battle profiles was basically them handing a lollypop to a kid with a skinned knee - it didn't "salvage" the game. It just made the crying kid stop crying, because the boo-boo was already starting to heal on its own and the constant whining made it so the adults in the room couldn't concentrate. AoS hasn't significantly changed from the first 4 page release - there's more options, but the game is essentially the same "dumpster fire" game it always was - only now, AoS is pretty darn popular and liked. Hell, I saw a board game reviewer put Age of Sigmar as his top game of all time just last week, even quoting the dreaded double turn as one of the reasons why.

I hope Warcasters is PP's version of Age of Sigmar. If it is, it would represent a radical new player-orientated focus for the company, give them a blueprint for a better Warmachine 4th edition, bring new players into their games, begin the start of more communication, and make everybody refer to their current times as "the dark times" that PP miraculously emerged from better than ever.