Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**Suzuteo**

In 8E, I was matched against my teammate in a tournament. I was playing AdMech. He was playing Deathwatch. Even before the game began, it was pretty clear that I was going to win. He literally could not leave ruins without getting pasted. I just had to sit and wait him out with my Breachers on objectives. So I decided to make it fair and intentionally moved my gunline closer. He managed to make his charges, and I gunned down half of his army in Overwatch. (This was during that period of time where Cawl + Raiment + Cognis Overwatch was cancer.) He DSed and killed my Knight. We ended up playing a really fun and close game. He won by 3 points.

Anyhow, we always should try to bring our best to a competitive event, and we should always take full advantage of the tools we have. But at the end of the day, it's a game where we push toy soldiers around and roll dice. Sometimes, it's fine to not to take winning too seriously.

**Ideasweasel**

Just sat about chatting for ages.

Both practicing for upcoming events so we both know the script. We would of probably re-racked again but just feel the list just currently counters his army too effectively

Not sure how much we could learn from the encounter.

He’s not salty at all for reference just didn’t really see the point. Usually going for a beer also takes precedence. That as he puts up with a serious amount of my proxies haha

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@suzuteo I remember you telling that story. Good sport ☺️ I totally agree

Having fun takes is more important than winning for me too

**Olthannon**

Cool! That all makes sense. And yeah beer totally takes precedence! Your mate must have more patience than me, if I'd spent all that time putting down nids I'd want them to at least rip apart a few robots for revenge.

Don't get me wrong I totally get the enjoyment for competitive play, I used to play in a couple of local tourneys years back but I went in for the experience, I don't think I was ever going all out to win. I'd certainly want to play well but to me that is different to winning, if that makes sense.

I struggle with the minmaxing/power gaming sort of thing because to me it stifles enjoyment. It forces other people to adopt the same tactics or else you can't hope to succeed. Even if your objective isn't necessarily to win, you at least want a close fun game.

When we used to play WHFB, me and my mate used to play skaven v orcs and gobbos. It was just ludicrous at times. That's the magic of warhammer that I think of so fondly.

I'm keen to play some crusade and try to rekindle that. Not sure if I'll ever play anything competitive though anymore, like I say, zero interest these days.

**Ideasweasel**

Yeah I think I’m kinda the stage before that. Our group started fluffy but we have had 3 years of a nuclear arms race that has gotten more and more ruthless.

I can see some of the group getting burned out and missing that initial magic that pulled us in.

**Octovol**

If they hadn't increased Ranger and Vanguard squad sizes to 20 they'd still be good with those new tools, but not the overbearing target of ire they're set to become at the moment.

Thats the worst thing, they're good tools, but having a unit that size benefit from it for such a small cp cost is daft. The problem is if they increased them to 2cp for over 10 i'm not sure people would use them. They'd likely stick with groups of 10 anyway to carry on using it for 1cp.

**DarkHound**

It's certainly a weird balancing point. It's strong at 1CP for 20 members. If you decrease the squad size, then Enriched Ammunition doesn't really do enough. It's still a good stratagem in a vacuum, but it's not impactful enough in play. For 10 Vanguard, against T4/5 Enriched is an extra 6.5 saves, and against T3 it's an extra 5. That's pretty much on par with the 1CP 3 mortal wounds strats that nobody uses. If you bump the CP cost to 2, it's the same effect.

I still think Enriched is strong, but fine as is. 20 Vanguard are extremely fragile to damage, blasts, charges, and morale. They pretty much get one round of shooting before bleeding members. After that, Enriched Rounds stops being efficient enough to use except against T6+ non-vehicles (and there aren't that many of those). It's pretty much on theme with AdMech: it's strong once.

**The Forgemaster**

2000 point List V3.

Spoiler:

Thoughts:

Spoiler:

Secondaries: (AdMech) Eradication of Flesh. Engage on all fronts & either Raise Banners or ROD probably. - would you reccomend differently?

Technoarchaeologist - he can allow a unit of core or servitors to perform actions without loosing shooting if needed. the +1S Artisan boost on the rangers. & potentail repairs on the vehicles. he has the Solar Flare because he is the most expendible HQ.

Marshal & Manipulus - boost the rangers mostly for Transhuman (possibly the Ironstriders if needed with Defencive buffs) & ignore AP-1 & -2, 39" (Lucius boost + Manipulus), S5 (with Technoboy) AP-2 D1, 40 shots (80 in 19" for 2CP) rerolling 1's to hit & wound. And a 1+ in cover before doctrinas against D1 weapons.

Breachers, mainly for holding primary objectives & taking out vehicles with arc rifles, Hydraulic claws because who doesn't want thunder hammer armed obsec terminators.

Vanguard - these are split into 3x5 squads - for actions options as well as board control/screening/deep-strike prevention- to cover the backfield etc.

Infiltrators forward deploy - preventing units from counter-deploying too close to my lines, giving space to my shooting units & space for raiders to move up too. turn 1/2 maybe move towards the board edge for CA to go for backfield units etc.

Sterylizor - because 15" flamers (Lucius bonus) out of deep strike is funny, and could be used for scramblers/engage if needed - hopefully booster thrust remains ok after the FAQ

Ironstriders - because Ironstriders

Dragoons - for some melee counter-punch (and the chance for mortals on the charge is useful against phase-locked damage)

Onagers - because of NMNR Eradication of Flesh, and they have a bunch of shooting too. Technoboy would repair these if needed.

I changed my mind on flyers after looking at the rules a bit more, 16 stubber shots and the bombs are not bad for the points, also another vehicle for NMNR.

I do have the option for Autocannons on the Ironstriders, would it be worth it? I have plenty of other Anti-Tank.

Anything else you might change?

Spoiler:

**Razerous**

DarkHound wrote:
It's certainly a weird balancing point. It's strong at 1CP for 20 members. If you decrease the squad size, then Enriched Ammunition doesn't really do enough. It's still a good stratagem in a vacuum, but it's not impactful enough in play. For 10 Vanguard, against T4/5 Enriched is an extra 6.5 saves, and against T3 it's an extra 5. That's pretty much on par with the 1CP 3 mortal wounds strats that nobody uses. If you bump the CP cost to 2, it's the same effect.

I still think Enriched is strong, but fine as is. 20 Vanguard are extremely fragile to damage, blasts, charges, and morale. They pretty much get one round of shooting before bleeding members. After that, Enriched Rounds stops being efficient enough to use except against T6+ non-vehicles (and there aren't that many of those). It's pretty much on theme with AdMech: it's strong once.

Interesting then in what ways can you make it strong twice?

Over investing screening / sacraficial units to buy another turn of shooting - melee units without focusing or an investment in killing, just delaying?

**DarkHound**

The short of it is that it's not worth more investment to protect one squad. (Besides Logos from an obligatory Manipulus, if there's nothing better to protect.) Instead you just need to bring more squads and hope one of them is healthy enough for Enriched Rounds. Skitarii are expendable, Vanguard doubly so. Send a wave in, douse the enemy in radiation, and repeat until the field is clear.

**Octovol**

DarkHound wrote:
It's certainly a weird balancing point. It's strong at 1CP for 20 members. If you decrease the squad size, then Enriched Ammunition doesn't really do enough. It's still a good stratagem in a vacuum, but it's not impactful enough in play. For 10 Vanguard, against T4/5 Enriched is an extra 6.5 saves, and against T3 it's an extra 5. That's pretty much on par with the 1CP 3 mortal wounds strats that nobody uses. If you bump the CP cost to 2, it's the same effect.

I still think Enriched is strong, but fine as is. 20 Vanguard are extremely fragile to damage, blasts, charges, and morale. They pretty much get one round of shooting before bleeding members. After that, Enriched Rounds stops being efficient enough to use except against T6+ non-vehicles (and there aren't that many of those). It's pretty much on theme with AdMech: it's strong once.

The argument then becomes, should we be expected to rely on 1cp strategm efficiency for something to make an impact? We were SO reliant on strategms in 8e to actually compete, we're less reliant now, most of our best stuff for force multipliers is in wlt and relics which is how it should be imo. I still think 1cp to wound any non-vehicle on a 4 with a 90pt unit that puts out 30 shots is worth it if the situation arises but not so good that we rely on it for just taking something out that anti-toughness like auto cannons should be doing. That's the slippery slope here imo, that strategms become a way for any particular unit to just kill anything instead of improving what it already does well. That's how units become outmoded when you can just pay 1cp to make one unit more useful than any that has a specific job.

**DarkHound**

I think you've got both points backwards. The strategem is the thing that's not efficient unless it's 1 CP, not that the Vanguard are inefficient without it. The Vanguard are anti-infantry shooting first, and also killing monsters is incidental. The buff against <T6 is significant, but not unreasonable. The fact is that T6+ non-vehicles are uncommon, and it's a fluffy interaction, so I'm not sure it's a huge point of balance.

If GW thinks it's a problem, they could do all sorts of stuff, like add a clause that it only works on a 5+ against T6+, but they probably won't. Maybe they'll knock it down to a 5+ generally (which halves the effect the same as reducing squad size or changing CP cost).>

**Ideasweasel**

I think if they have to nerf it (which I don’t want) they should ban it from monsters then it becomes less oppressive

So give it the exception keyword VEHICLES and MONSTERS

Now morty doesn’t take an instagib to the face

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it can still be used to nuke elite infantry etc without needing to change the roll conditions

**DarkHound**

Yeah, that's a good solution too. They could put the exception to Monsters on the stratagem but not the gun. That way you'd still get 6s going through, which would be fluffy and not oppressive. Blasting biologicals with radiation should be effective.

**Kanluwen**

How many Skitarii is too many Skitarii?

Asking for my 150+...

**Ideasweasel**

@dark

I think we are due some money from GW for writing the game for them ☺️

Problem solved buddy

**CKO**

I say the codex is one of the strongest I have seen, you then say this about me.

DarkHound wrote:
Ah, and I had forgotten why I put CKO on ignore.

Then you talk about ways to make one of the units more balanced because it may be too strong. Are you saying I may be right?

I am confused with Stygies VIII dogma, what units do not receive the benefits of dense cover?

**TheArchmagos**

Ok so this may be a rookie question and I think I may know the answer already but am hoping I'm wrong.

In terms of taking a knight, or in my case Armiger Warglaives, is it possible to take knights without either giving up their knightly household rules or losing your canticles and doctrinas?

My understanding is knight of the cog allows one super heavy auxiliary detachment to be taken without nullifying canticles and doctrina and that superheavy auxiliary stops the knights in it from benefitting from knightly households.

Am I missing something here? Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible to take 3 armiger warglaives and have them benefit from knightly households without losing canticles and doctrinas on my admech? Without households the armiger seem a bit underwhelming...

**Thairne**

CKO wrote:
I say the codex is one of the strongest I have seen, you then say this about me

Probably because of the unrealistic hyperbole applied while not having any actual game with or against it.

**Vineheart01**

TheArchmagos wrote:
Ok so this may be a rookie question and I think I may know the answer already but am hoping I'm wrong.

In terms of taking a knight, or in my case Armiger Warglaives, is it possible to take knights without either giving up their knightly household rules or losing your canticles and doctrinas?

My understanding is knight of the cog allows one super heavy auxiliary detachment to be taken without nullifying canticles and doctrina and that superheavy auxiliary stops the knights in it from benefitting from knightly households.

Am I missing something here? Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible to take 3 armiger warglaives and have them benefit from knightly households without losing canticles and doctrinas on my admech? Without households the armiger seem a bit underwhelming...

Unfortunately right now that seems to be the case.

Admech rules for allowing knights w/o breaking things is specifically auxiliary detachments, which deny house rules. So a Super Heavy Detachment would not get Knight of the Cog, breaking canticles/doctrines
This MIGHT change when the knight dex drops where the aux detachment doesnt deny it, but i doubt it.

I feel your pain, i liked running a knight + 2 warglaives in the past. Since the cp cost i stopped doing that of course, but all the knights w/o house rules just feel....pathetic right now. I have even LESS urge to paint my other armigers now (the dakka variant, been so long since ive even looked at them i forget their name lol)

**RaptorHunter**

I have a question and hopefully this is the right place.

I am preparing for a Crusade campaign. Crusade rules state that I can not select a warlord trait or relic unless I buy the specific requisition. The rules also say I can't use stratagems to upgrade units. Both Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary state that I give a Skitarii Alpha or Princeps model a relic/warlord trait.

According to the relic requisitions, I can only use the requisition when I add or upgrade a <Character> model to my Order of Battle. I see no further explanation or rules in the Admech codex on additional Crusade rules for those strategems.

Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.

Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?

**JNAProductions**

RaptorHunter wrote:
I have a question and hopefully this is the right place.

I am preparing for a Crusade campaign. Crusade rules state that I can not select a warlord trait or relic unless I buy the specific requisition. The rules also say I can't use stratagems to upgrade units. Both Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary state that I give a Skitarii Alpha or Princeps model a relic/warlord trait.

According to the relic requisitions, I can only use the requisition when I add or upgrade a <Character> model to my Order of Battle. I see no further explanation or rules in the Admech codex on additional Crusade rules for those strategems.

Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.

Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?

Seems right to me.

But talk to the people you're playing with. Work something out with them.

**DarkHound**

TheArchmagos wrote:
Am I missing something here? Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible to take 3 armiger warglaives and have them benefit from knightly households without losing canticles and doctrinas on my admech? Without households the armiger seem a bit underwhelming...

There is exactly one way to do it: take a Super-heavy Detachment of House Raven, and an Adeptus Mechanicus detachment of Forgeworld Metalica, and pay 1 CP for each Knight unit to give them Knights of the Iron Cog. Not an ideal situation, I know. Still, it also gives the Knights canticles and I can attest its efficacy; the Knights make much better use of them than most AdMech units.

RaptorHunter wrote:
Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.

Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?

The rules actually only say "No model in your Order of Battle can have a Relic or a Warlord Trait unless you have purchased the appropriate Requisition." It does not specify that the appropriate requisition is always "Warlord Trait" or "Relic". In this case, "Specialist Reinforcements" activates a stratagem (Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary) that would give a squad a new ability or upgrade.

**VirtualJiva**

I 100% have never played crusade rules. But if it helps at all the only requisition strategem you can us use that doesn't require an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS warlord is Artefactorum

**em_en_oh_pee**

Spoiler:

Feedback is appreciated, folks!

**DarkHound**

VirtualJiva wrote:
I 100% have never played crusade rules. But if it helps at all the only requisition strategem you can us use that doesn't require an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS warlord is Artefactorum

The Crusade rules skirt around this with a clause that you can ignore detachment and organization requirements for the requisitions. For example, a stratagem that says 'your Warlord must be AdMech to use this' has to ignore that requirement to work, since you don't have a Warlord while writing your roster.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Spoiler:

Metalica & Raven Semi-Competitive? (lol)

House Raven Superheavy Detachment

Knight Crusader
Avenger & Thermal Cannon
Exalted Court - Ion Bulwark
Knight of the Iron Cog
[475]

Armiger Warglaive
Stubber
Knight of the Iron Cog
[155]

Armiger Warglaive
Stubber
Knight of the Iron Cog
[155]

Metalica Battalion

HQ:
Tech-Priest Manipulus (Warlord)
Magnarail, Artisan
Master Annihilator
[95]

Technoarcheologist
Logi
[90]

Skitarii Marshal
Firepoint Telemetry Cache (Mechanicus Locum)
[45]

Troops:
(20) Vanguard
Omnispex
[165]

(6) Kataphron Breachers
[210]

(6) Rangers
[48]

Elites:
(7) Sicarian Infiltrators
Blaster & Goad
[119]

Fast Attack:
(5) Serberys Raiders
[80]

Heavy:
Dunecrawler
Icarus
[115]

Dunecrawler
Neutron
[115]

Flyer:
Fusilave
[130]

[1997]Slim on CP out of the gate (to say the least!), but that is the price to pay for maintaining the House Raven rules and not breaking the AdMech. Not sure if it will do well, honestly, but it looks fun, has a lot of my favorite models, and hopefully won't roll over to anything but like top tier stuff.

Feedback is appreciated, folks!

That's kind of similar to my own (of course having the same factions will do that). There's a bunch of small errors, for instance Warglaives are 135 base now, and Neutron Lasers add 5 points to the Dunecrawler since they come with a Stubber. If I'm reading this right, you're taking a Super-heavy Detachment for 6 CP, paying 1 for Exalted Court, and paying 3 for Knights of the Iron Cog, all so that you can keep Firepoint Telemetry Cache on the Marshall? That's 10 CP. Swap those around, make the Knight the Warlord and trade Firepoint for 5 more CP (you can make the Battalion into a Patrol, since the TechnoArch doesn't use an HQ slot). I also really recommend bringing a third or fourth Warglaive to maximize Pack Tactics. You can probably squeeze another in at the expense of a Dunecrawler, just put it in one of the existing Warglaive units to save a CP.

Here's what I run at 2k:

Spoiler:

**em_en_oh_pee**

That's why I post for more eyes on my lists. I get in this mode where I am hung up on the idea and miss the obvious ways to execute it best.

I'm also probably using some older books too because I'm trying to get back into 40k and keeping up with everything after a couple years is a chore... And I'm too stubborn to get the app. (Should I just get the damn app?!)

I like that list you got but I really want to bring the Breachers. I'll tinker some more and see what I can do. It'll look very much like yours I'm sure as we're both heading in the same direction.

Thanks for all the help, DH!

**Suzuteo**

IMO, they should have kept it 10-man squads with 1 of each special weapon for every 5 dudes you run.

MSUs running around with Alpha, Omnispex, Arc Rifle, Plasma Caliver, and Arquebus would seem funny though.

**ph34r**

For Infiltrators, are taser goads actually preferable to power swords? I know probably everyone has them built with taser goads, but I'm building a unit I've had on sprue for ages, and I wonder.

**Aaranis**

ph34r wrote:
For Infiltrators, are taser goads actually preferable to power swords? I know probably everyone has them built with taser goads, but I'm building a unit I've had on sprue for ages, and I wonder.

Yes, my maths have shown they're overwhelmingly better than swords, and can be buffed further with the exploding 5s stratagem. Any buffs on AP is better on Taser Goads than Power Swords, also.

Here's the maths, it's in French but I think it's understandable:

Spoiler:

**Thairne**

And then there's the fact that ruststalkers have power swords as well.
Thats why I built my Infils as anti-horde with tasers and ruststalkers as anti-elite with swords. Well, except that the razors were better, but noone cares how long the thing actually is on those spindly hard to discern things from a distance anyway