Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi everyone,

I have a large collection of games at home now (probably too many ;-)) but I am still missing a good tactical miniature game where one has a set amount of points to create one's army.

More specifically I am looking for a game with the following characteristics :
* Armies are not comprised of tons of figs. I am thinking 30-50 ideally (I am not set on the exact numbers though). However, a good variety in abilities and synergies is idea. I also like having a "big" hero/commander with great abilities
* I have never painted but I would like to try and my wife, who is not really a gamer, might like it as well. However, we have 2 toddlers, time is limited so I don't see myself painting hundreds and hundreds of minis yet. Ideally, there should be painting tutorials for each/most minis (that's a big plus of GW games)
* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play. A battlemat with terrain modifiers/obstacle already included would be ideal. I have heard about terrain set from other games in cardboard as well, or even this from GW : Realm of battle moon base (I can't post links yet). is it sufficient ?
* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (I don't have a dedicated table/room and with 2 toddlers, I cannot leave anything they can grab ;-))
* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.
* Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?
* No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice or with a kind of AI (I found this for warhammer 40K : TheSoloHeresy_latest.pdf). What do you think ? has anyone tried something like that ?
* Playable with 3 players from time to time
* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point

So, what do you think ? I have looked at W40K or AoS as I don't really have a specific setting in mind, I love both high fantasy and sci-fi.
In AoS, I have heard about a new format, meeting engagement, which looks fun and playable with fewer minis. Is there an equivalent in W40K ?

thanks !

Have you considered Kill Teams? A lot less models but more tactical (I've heard).

Honest answer? Given that criteria - no.

I'm with both of the above.

No. Maybe try Kill-Team.

Personally, I think you might want to look at “Heroes of Black Reach”. It’s a board/wargame set in the 40K universe and uses better rules. The pieces are cardboard, but if you want to scale up the maps, you could use 40K minis.

Right now, the only two forces are Marines and Orks, but others should be coming soon - Eldar And Tyranids I think are next.

 Kharneth wrote:
Have you considered Kill Teams? A lot less models but more tactical (I've heard).

Yeah, it has already been suggested to me.
Indeed, it might be a solution. However, as I said, I like it when there are a few "heroes/commanders" with unique abilities and I think this is not the case in Kill team (even though some minis have specialties).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Honest answer? Given that criteria - no.

thanks. Which criterion in particular ?

Kill-Team: Commanders includes unique Stratagems and Aura Tactics for all - or nearly all - the Commander Datasheets therein.

lillumultipass wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have a large collection of games at home now (probably too many ;-)) but I am still missing a good tactical miniature game where one has a set amount of points to create one's army.

More specifically I am looking for a game with the following characteristics :
* Armies are not comprised of tons of figs. I am thinking 30-50 ideally (I am not set on the exact numbers though). However, a good variety in abilities and synergies is idea. I also like having a "big" hero/commander with great abilities

You're the opposite of me in this case, but depending on the faction, this can be your army.

lillumultipass wrote:
* I have never painted but I would like to try and my wife, who is not really a gamer, might like it as well. However, we have 2 toddlers, time is limited so I don't see myself painting hundreds and hundreds of minis yet. Ideally, there should be painting tutorials for each/most minis (that's a big plus of GW games)

Again, depends on the faction. Sounds like you might want to avoid Guard, Tyranids, and Orks. Custodes, Marines, and Chaos Marines would be safer bets.

lillumultipass wrote:
* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play. A battlemat with terrain modifiers/obstacle already included would be ideal. I have heard about terrain set from other games in cardboard as well, or even this from GW : Realm of battle moon base (I can't post links yet). is it sufficient ?

Eh? Any game needs LoS blockers. I use large hills from a dinosaur playset. The GW-make terrain isn't super great, IMO

lillumultipass wrote:
* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (I don't have a dedicated table/room and with 2 toddlers, I cannot leave anything they can grab ;-))

40k does not meet this requirement. Kill team does, though.

lillumultipass wrote:
* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.

Unlike what a lot of people say, there's a lot of strategy and tactics in 40k. I would say it's fairly deep. Tactical/Strategic depth and rule complexity are not necessarily correlated. However, there are a lot of things that will "feel weird", in the sense that is has fairly good tactical depth, but a lot of it doesn't feel like it stems from historical doctrine and field tactics.

To be fair, though, I would say there are quite a few games that hit the verisimilitude bar high, but not the tactical bar, and vice versa. 40k is on the gamist side, rather than the "realism" side.

lillumultipass wrote:
* Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?

Definitely. That's probably the core advantage of 40k.

lillumultipass wrote:
* No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice or with a kind of AI (I found this for warhammer 40K : TheSoloHeresy_latest.pdf). What do you think ? has anyone tried something like that ?

Information isn't hidden. I play with myself all the time when preparing for big games, but mostly with the exercise of perfecting my list and understanding what maneuvers my opponent will try to and can do rather than "having a good game"

lillumultipass wrote:
* Playable with 3 players from time to time

Sure. We've done it, it works okayish. Most wargames aren't 3 player games, though.

lillumultipass wrote:
* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point

Definitely, 40k also hits this req with flying colors.

lillumultipass wrote:
So, what do you think ? I have looked at W40K or AoS as I don't really have a specific setting in mind, I love both high fantasy and sci-fi.
In AoS, I have heard about a new format, meeting engagement, which looks fun and playable with fewer minis. Is there an equivalent in W40K ?

thanks !

All in all, Kill Team might suit your needs better. It has most of the advantages of 40k, but there are a few points that 40k misses [space and time] that Kill Team will probably satisfy for you.

Kill Team does have heroic commanders. In addition, all your guys can be heroes with special abilities if you want. This is actually what I like least about Kill Team; I'm not a fan of heroes and special people, and would rather play with masses of soldiers and tanks.

I would say "no" as well. 40k is tactically shallow, requires many models, and is obscenely expensive. Oh, and poorly balanced.

I would recommend Maelstrom's Edge or Zone Raiders. Great games with 50 or fewer models, deep rules, and affordable prices. They do use terrain, however.

Edit: Gaslands, too. Roughly 3 hot wheels-scale cars, rules, templates and terrain and you're set!

You might like Warmachine/Hordes (Two compatible Systems) although it's not nearly as popular as 40k, so harder to find opponents. May be dead in your area. May be dead around the world in a year or two, depending on whether or not Privateer Press can turn things around.

Regarding your criteria...

* Armies are not comprised of tons of figs. I am thinking 30-50 ideally (I am not set on the exact numbers though). However, a good variety in abilities and synergies is idea. I also like having a "big" hero/commander with great abilities

~ 75 points is typically 25 to 40 models, and is the "suggested" size for battles. All commanders are critically important to game play... if they die, you lose.


* I have never painted but I would like to try and my wife, who is not really a gamer, might like it as well. However, we have 2 toddlers, time is limited so I don't see myself painting hundreds and hundreds of minis yet. Ideally, there should be painting tutorials for each/most minis (that's a big plus of GW games)

~ WMH has fewer minis, and the minis have *generally* fewer details, which I find easier / quicker to paint. Except for a couple of notable factions, like Menoth. They're loaded with extra gubbins.


* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play. A battlemat with terrain modifiers/obstacle already included would be ideal. I have heard about terrain set from other games in cardboard as well, or even this from GW : Realm of battle moon base (I can't post links yet). is it sufficient ?

~ WMH *can* be played with 2d terrain. It's a steampunk / fantasy setting, so simple woods, houses, hills, walls, that sort of thing goes a long way, and in general, 9 pieces of 6x6 inch base terrain would be more than enough for most games. If you had 15 pieces, you could play 20 games with *technically* different terrain setups, maybe more.


* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (I don't have a dedicated table/room and with 2 toddlers, I cannot leave anything they can grab ;-))

~ WMH is played on 4x4 board, or smaller for varients. 2 hours (once you know the game and your army) should be plenty.


* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.

~ Frustrating for me, is that each roll is 2d6 (or more) dice, and you total the results. So 4d6, discard the lowest roll might net you a 6, 4, 3, 1... discarding the lowest you'd have a total of 13 for your result. With multiple dice, your results will form a bell curve, making results somewhat more predictable. Unfortunately, that means each and every attack / action is rolled separately, so you can't roll 5 attacks at a time from one unit... for example.


* Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?

~ I think there's around 8 major factions, and most factions have around 4 "Themes" that can be built. While customizing models is less convenient than 40k (Almost 0 spare bitz) you can have a wide variety of units available.


* No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice or with a kind of AI (I found this for warhammer 40K : TheSoloHeresy_latest.pdf). What do you think ? has anyone tried something like that ?

~ All Commander models have magic they can cast, using Focus or Fury points that they have. Different spells cost different amounts of Focus / Fury, and you replenish that in different ways. Some casters are beat sticks, some are support, and others are just unusual. Many "unit champions" and each Commander (Warcaster / Warlock) have a once-per-game "Feat" that they can also activate. So while not "hidden", there are countless decisions about when and how and where that would be tricky to create an AI for.


* Playable with 3 players from time to time

~ I've played 3 player WMH battles, but I'll say it's less well suited than a game like 40k. 4 players is fine, but if one side's Caster gets killed it's pretty much game over.


* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point

~ WMH is / has been a tournament focused game. Mostly because the rules are tighter, and the skill cap is much higher (in my opinion). While it can seem like two teams that run to the middle and smash each other, Chess is also like that. The trick is to trade and gain advantageous position, while your opponent is trying to do the same. In that regard, I find it a much more tactical game, particularly as most things are "fragile", like in Chess. Ranges for things are relatively short, so in order to be threatening, you are yourself threatened. Unlike 40k, for example, where you can have dedicated melee troops (moving 12" per turn) facing Artillery tanks that can potentially fire 240"... not that you play on such sized boards, but that's the range of an Earthshaker Cannon.


~ Extra Info ~ In Europe, WMH is more expensive than 40k, where in North America, WMH is less expensive than 40k.

The nice part, is that rules are VERY cheap. The starter boxes (about $35 USD) include the rules for the game, a basic "Battlegroup" of about 4 models, and everything you need to start a basic game against someone with another Battlebox. A "codex" costs around $8 USD (Through the War Room 2 app) and includes an Army Builder with all the (updating) rules. So no worries about FAQ or Errata or things like that. The App updates with all that info. Given the low cost of rules, you can probably build a pair of 2-List 75 point WMH lists for around the same price as a pair of 1500 point 40k armies. With WMH, you can build your lists to be somewhat interchangeable between "Themes" and that lowers the cost of getting variety somewhat, I find.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

lillumultipass wrote:
* I have never painted but I would like to try and my wife, who is not really a gamer, might like it as well. However, we have 2 toddlers, time is limited so I don't see myself painting hundreds and hundreds of minis yet. Ideally, there should be painting tutorials for each/most minis (that's a big plus of GW games)

Again, depends on the faction. Sounds like you might want to avoid Guard, Tyranids, and Orks. Custodes, Marines, and Chaos Marines would be safer bets.

lillumultipass wrote:
* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play. A battlemat with terrain modifiers/obstacle already included would be ideal. I have heard about terrain set from other games in cardboard as well, or even this from GW : Realm of battle moon base (I can't post links yet). is it sufficient ?

Eh? Any game needs LoS blockers. I use large hills from a dinosaur playset. The GW-make terrain isn't super great, IMO

lillumultipass wrote:
* Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (I don't have a dedicated table/room and with 2 toddlers, I cannot leave anything they can grab ;-))

40k does not meet this requirement. Kill team does, though.

lillumultipass wrote:
* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.

Unlike what a lot of people say, there's a lot of strategy and tactics in 40k. I would say it's fairly deep. Tactical/Strategic depth and rule complexity are not necessarily correlated. However, there are a lot of things that will "feel weird", in the sense that is has fairly good tactical depth, but a lot of it doesn't feel like it stems from historical doctrine and field tactics.

To be fair, though, I would say there are quite a few games that hit the verisimilitude bar high, but not the tactical bar, and vice versa. 40k is on the gamist side, rather than the "realism" side.

lillumultipass wrote:
* Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?

Definitely. That's probably the core advantage of 40k.

lillumultipass wrote:
* No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice or with a kind of AI (I found this for warhammer 40K : TheSoloHeresy_latest.pdf). What do you think ? has anyone tried something like that ?

Information isn't hidden. I play with myself all the time when preparing for big games, but mostly with the exercise of perfecting my list and understanding what maneuvers my opponent will try to and can do rather than "having a good game"

lillumultipass wrote:
* Playable with 3 players from time to time

Sure. We've done it, it works okayish. Most wargames aren't 3 player games, though.

lillumultipass wrote:
* I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point

Definitely, 40k also hits this req with flying colors.

lillumultipass wrote:
So, what do you think ? I have looked at W40K or AoS as I don't really have a specific setting in mind, I love both high fantasy and sci-fi.
In AoS, I have heard about a new format, meeting engagement, which looks fun and playable with fewer minis. Is there an equivalent in W40K ?

thanks !

All in all, Kill Team might suit your needs better. It has most of the advantages of 40k, but there are a few points that 40k misses [space and time] that Kill Team will probably satisfy for you.

Kill Team does have heroic commanders. In addition, all your guys can be heroes with special abilities if you want. This is actually what I like least about Kill Team; I'm not a fan of heroes and special people, and would rather play with masses of soldiers and tanks.

Ok, thanks, I will have to check Kill team more closely. But I was under the impression that heroic commanders were less...I don't know, unique or spectacular than in W40K

As to the size of maps and length, I thought with a 1000pt format it would be ok, no ? Do people usually consider those formats to be sub par ?

I'll try to answer on an individual basis,

* Armies are not comprised of tons of figs. I am thinking 30-50 ideally (I am not set on the exact numbers though). However, a good variety in abilities and synergies is idea. I also like having a "big" hero/commander with great abilities

this will depend greatly on what army you run in 40k. As 40k has a wide varity of armies, some are haord armies where throwing over a hundred models on the table is easily the norm, Guard, Tyranids, Genestealer cults Orks etc tend to fall into this catagory. Then you have more elite units that have only a few expensive units. Imperial Knights and Custodes are examples of this side of the spectrum.

* I have never painted but I would like to try and my wife, who is not really a gamer, might like it as well. However, we have 2 toddlers, time is limited so I don't see myself painting hundreds and hundreds of minis yet. Ideally, there should be painting tutorials for each/most minis (that's a big plus of GW games)

there are certainly toutorials, and GW recently introduced contrast paint to make painting, in theory quicker then ever. they have lots of tutorials, however you can find tutorials for any thing else.

* I don't really want to buy or make tons of terrain stuff to be able to play. A battlemat with terrain modifiers/obstacle already included would be ideal. I have heard about terrain set from other games in cardboard as well, or even this from GW : Realm of battle moon base (I can't post links yet). is it sufficient ?

Terrain is a choice you can go with, but generally speaking the more the better.

Ideally, I am looking for a smaller than 4 x 6' footprint (4 x 4' I woud say) and max 2-3 hrs playing time so that I can play within an evening and teardown everything (I don't have a dedicated table/room and with 2 toddlers, I cannot leave anything they can grab ;-))

this could be a problem yeah, 40k minis are small, and it'd be easy for a toddler to choke on a mini,

* Rather deep rules : I am clearly not against dice but I'd rather have the impression that my decisions matter. I don't mind reading a big rulebook.

40ks rules are pretty simple and easy to pick upo, not a ton of depth. but lots of options.

Varied factions/races with a lot of possibilities for customization of one's army. Is that the case in W40K ?

absolutely, there are a ton of options, even among the same army type there are oodles of options.

No hidden information so that I can play solo to practice or with a kind of AI (I found this for warhammer 40K : TheSoloHeresy_latest.pdf). What do you think ? has anyone tried something like that ?

this could be a problem as every army has a rules book, and there are so many armies in 40k, getting all the army books might be impratical.

Playable with 3 players from time to time

easy to do with the detachment system and points.

I'd rather have a game that is well supported so that, if I want to, I could attend some tournaments at some point

40k is certainly well supported.


that said given all your criteria I think 40k COULD work, but it's not ideal. 40ks worth taking a look at, it's very well supported so worst case scenerio you may be able to get out of the house once a week to play at a local gaming store or something. Over all IMHO I think you might wanna wait before getting into any mini's game if your kids are still in the "puts stuff in mouth" phase. Anoither game that is worth looking into that should check a lot of your check boxes is Battletech.

As the others have said, the answer is no. Look into Kill Team or a different game system altogether.

40k could be the game you're looking for, although really Age of Sigmar almost fits better.

40k really needs 4x6 to breathe. It has a lot of tactical decision making, but maneuver itself isn't as rewarded as in some other games.

Star Wars legion might fit more into your criteria. Smaller armies, super powerful commanders, playable on a dining room table, etc.

Warmachine might hit a lot of your likes. Warcasters are incredibly powerful, it's played on a 4x4, tons of tactical depth, and used armies are cheap as chips these days.

If you like a hobby involving amazing miniatures, a detailed lore and a fun game involving both then yes, it could be for you.

You have to decide if you have the patience to assemble and paint models, however.

Looking at the presented criteria, I would say no. You'd be better off with Killteam, Commanders does allow you to have your heroic characters, and they have the same restrictions in gear normally that they do in 40k.

Or you could play something like Knight Models' Batman Miniature game, which is small, only a handful of models per-side and they have some pretty decent cardboard terrain for your skirmishes. The play area is also fairly small, being 36"x36" Its lacking in model customization though. But then again so is alot of modern 40k.

Regarding your criteria:

1) The armies are comprised of a lot of models. That's both financially and time intensive.

2) Painting is part of the hobby. It's easy to get a basic finish on the miniatures, but if that's a turn off - that's pretty big. The game rules etc. are not good enough to warrant playing "just for fun". If the hobby aspect doesn't appeal, you're not going to get much out of the game. If this is the case there are loads of good miniature games and board games which are faster/cheaper/more enjoyable and require none of the hobby aspect.

3) The game definitely requires terrain. Without it, the game breaks very quickly and you're left with not much to do but stand and get shot. The very nature of tabletop wargaming is the presence and use of beautiful 3D landscapes which you're fighting over. WIthout it...don't bother.

4) 40K doesn't operate particularly well if you go down to smaller and smaller games. There are skirmish games which are much more suited to 3x3 and 4x4 style layouts. A lot of them are not GW-based products, but GW makes a few. If you want to play, but only small games you may struggle to find opponents who may be wanting "normal" sized games.

5) The rules for 40K are not deep. There's a type of depth but it's related to synergy and combo-building. But tactical and strategic depth have never been a part of the GW 40K brand. If you like combo/meta building it might appeal to you, but on the table there's very little depth other than figuring out how to acquire the best dice roll. If you come from something like historical wargames you'll notice how shin-deep the actual warfighting rules are within the game. If you come from a CCG you may enjoy it.

6) You have a lot (arguably too many) army choices in 40K, and plenty of customization (again this is the hobby part). GW is moving away from unit customization though with their new direction in model kits. Fewer and fewer models have options as they release them, so the game is getting more linear in that fashion. Historically one of the major draws was the amount of "room" you had to adjust and manipulate units (namely characters). That is on the way out.

7) Not suitable at all for solo play, unless you just want to roll a bunch of dice. Have not tried any third party AI mechanics.

8) Playing with three players is extremely poor unless you manipulate heavily the scenario to make it logical (or you modify the game yourself). 40K has never been three-player friendly and that's no different in 8th edition.

9) You won't find a better supported game in the world than Warhammer 40K (perhaps Magic, but that's a CCG). This is one of the selling points of the game. Even in poor editions and low-sales times, it's hugely popular and easy to find events/tournaments.

Why am I saying all of this? Because I've been around GW and 40K for 25 years. If you really like toy soldiers, or painting toy soldiers and you're willing to put up with GW prices and mediocre rules, it can be a fun game....but the usual result is people dump too much money into it, partially assemble and paint an army, and then bail in six months - haven't wasted all the time and money.

Ideally you need to find a local 40K group and someone cool who has armies and try the game out. Play with a group for a couple of months. A nice player will run you through intro games, share an army for you to use, etc. It's too time intensive and expensive to just dive in without really knowing if you like it. You can start with smaller products (Kill Team is pretty "meh", but it's small and cheaper). I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with the fact that 40K has always been cool...but not "good". The rules have never been particularly good, balance hasn't been good, etc. But the models and lore/fluf have been cool enough to keep people going at it for 30+ years.

Don't dive in hardcore, you could easily regret it. Try it out, observe some games, heck buy a couple of miniatures and see if you can handle painting, etc.

Additionally with the addition of Adeptus Custodes to Kill Team you now can theoretically have a Kill Team of just two models, and 40k Pure Adeptus Custodes models can have just a handful of models too.

 Elbows wrote:

5) The rules for 40K are not deep. There's a type of depth but it's related to synergy and combo-building. But tactical and strategic depth have never been a part of the GW 40K brand. If you like combo/meta building it might appeal to you, but on the table there's very little depth other than figuring out how to acquire the best dice roll. If you come from something like historical wargames you'll notice how shin-deep the actual warfighting rules are within the game. If you come from a CCG you may enjoy it.

I actually do come from WWII-era historical wargames, and I think 40k might actually have deeper tactics and strategy.

Beyond the selection of your force composition which permits you to build an overall strategy, the tactics on the field on the board are very important. The close combat phases are the prime example of this, where knowing and executing how to position your models and precisely how to carry out your charge and fight phases can be decisive.

So all the folks recommending Kill team are spot on; it is also baby steps to 40k. If you get a few kill teams to see how they play, and if you find that both of you do enjoy painting, then you can grab the codex for the kill team you like best.

BUT I'm also going to throw out Blackstone Fortress. It is a board game, so it fits ALL of your criteria, including no scenery. Every model in the box comes with 40k rules; there's a free download on the community page for using the models in Kill Team as well. The chaos army is playable in 40k out of the box:

- Chaos lord
- 2 chaos marine bodyguards
- 2 rogue psykers
- 2 squads of 7 traitor guard each including a sargeant and a flamer
- 4 beast men
- 4 negavolt cultists

27 models- all well detailed [though monopose]- they fit together so well I didn't even use glue for most of them.

The downside is that on the good guys side, what you get is a collection of heroes, but no army for any of them. This might also be cool for you though, because the style of each of the models will encourage different types of painting. The UR-025 is perfect for a beginner, whereas Janus Drake will require a steadier hand.

It's cooperative play, which makes it great for families once your kids are older.

You'll get to paint:

- An Eldar
- A robot
- A Kroot
- A priest
- His body guard
- A rogue trader
- A pair of Ratling twins

Paint all the minis, play the campaign until you win it. If you're content with Blackstone, for a minimal investmet, you can just get the expansions as they're released.There are already two, and an even bigger own with new explorers is on the way.

When it starts to lose its shine, buy the Kill Team Book and a squad to form a kill team for your favourite Blackstone explorer and take on the chaos models you already have as a kill team. If your wife's favourite explorer is different than yours, get a kill team for her explorer as well. Now you've got a spare kill team for one of the kids once they're old enough- though of course you'll want them to learn Blackstone first, just like you and your wife did. Best they learn sportsmanship from cooperative play and once they're ready, teach them competition through kill team.

By the way, this game will turn your kids into life long readers, because there are HUNDREDS of novels set in this universe. They'll also be able to math hammer with any Dakka old schooler by the time they hit grade 6.

By then, you and your wife will be playing full on 40k or even scale it up to Apocalypse, but your Blackstone will still be the core of your armies. The other thing that's really cool in the current version of the game is that different factions [with certain limitations] can ally to form big armies. So let's say you and your wife have good size 40k armies but the kids only have kill teams; if your kids gang up, they could take on either of your armies.

In the current version of the game, these interactions of scale and scope create more ways to play and more options than any other system in the world. I've been playing this game since about 1990, and I'm still using models I bought back then! That's 3 decades of continuous game play and product support. GW isn't perfect; they've hit the reset button seven times already, and a lot of people on Dakka are just waiting for them to do it again. There are a significant number of tournament players on Dakka, and tournament play IS an important, fun and vital part of the game. Concerns about balance in the current version of the game are legit, though this is far less problematic in Blackstone or Kill Team. My point is that some of the advice you're going to get here will be through a competitive filter, and it may not be appropriate, since your preferred opponents will probably be friends and family. 40k's campaign play potential on all 4 scales is incredible.

No other miniature game system in the world can boast that many options or as much support as you'll get from GW.



----

From what you're describing I'd say Lotr is much closer to what you're searching for. It's more tactical than 40k or AoS, can be played from 2-200 Minis, really, works with any kind of simple terrain, and the Minis are pretty easy to paint and a bit cheaper than other GW systems. And it has the advantage of a great and well known IP.
Also, the rules basically haven't changed since 15 years, because they're perfect. Historical Minis are also great to use as Alternatives and for Customizing in Lotr.

lillumultipass wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have a large collection of games at home now (probably too many ;-)) but I am still missing a good tactical miniature game where one has a set amount of points to create one's army.

And if you buy into 40k you'll still be missing that.

Look, overall I've enjoyed 40k a lot through the years/editions. It can be fun. And it has cool models & imagery out the wazoo. But if you take a cup of water & spill it on the floor you've just created something with more tactical depth than this edition of the game....

You might have noticed from this discussion that the 40k player base is pretty divided. My suggestion? Go down to your local game store and see if the owner has any "loaner" armies for you to try out. Or another player at the store, if they don't. That way you can decide for yourself if 40k is right for you, instead of listening to extreme opinions from a bunch of people you don't even know.

PenitentJake wrote:
So all the folks recommending Kill team are spot on; it is also baby steps to 40k. If you get a few kill teams to see how they play, and if you find that both of you do enjoy painting, then you can grab the codex for the kill team you like best.

BUT I'm also going to throw out Blackstone Fortress. It is a board game, so it fits ALL of your criteria, including no scenery. Every model in the box comes with 40k rules; there's a free download on the community page for using the models in Kill Team as well. The chaos army is playable in 40k out of the box:

- Chaos lord
- 2 chaos marine bodyguards
- 2 rogue psykers
- 2 squads of 7 traitor guard each including a sargeant and a flamer
- 4 beast men
- 4 negavolt cultists

27 models- all well detailed [though monopose]- they fit together so well I didn't even use glue for most of them.

The downside is that on the good guys side, what you get is a collection of heroes, but no army for any of them. This might also be cool for you though, because the style of each of the models will encourage different types of painting. The UR-025 is perfect for a beginner, whereas Janus Drake will require a steadier hand.

It's cooperative play, which makes it great for families once your kids are older.

You'll get to paint:

- An Eldar
- A robot
- A Kroot
- A priest
- His body guard
- A rogue trader
- A pair of Ratling twins

Paint all the minis, play the campaign until you win it. If you're content with Blackstone, for a minimal investmet, you can just get the expansions as they're released.There are already two, and an even bigger own with new explorers is on the way.

When it starts to lose its shine, buy the Kill Team Book and a squad to form a kill team for your favourite Blackstone explorer and take on the chaos models you already have as a kill team. If your wife's favourite explorer is different than yours, get a kill team for her explorer as well. Now you've got a spare kill team for one of the kids once they're old enough- though of course you'll want them to learn Blackstone first, just like you and your wife did. Best they learn sportsmanship from cooperative play and once they're ready, teach them competition through kill team.

By the way, this game will turn your kids into life long readers, because there are HUNDREDS of novels set in this universe. They'll also be able to math hammer with any Dakka old schooler by the time they hit grade 6.

By then, you and your wife will be playing full on 40k or even scale it up to Apocalypse, but your Blackstone will still be the core of your armies. The other thing that's really cool in the current version of the game is that different factions [with certain limitations] can ally to form big armies. So let's say you and your wife have good size 40k armies but the kids only have kill teams; if your kids gang up, they could take on either of your armies.

In the current version of the game, these interactions of scale and scope create more ways to play and more options than any other system in the world. I've been playing this game since about 1990, and I'm still using models I bought back then! That's 3 decades of continuous game play and product support. GW isn't perfect; they've hit the reset button seven times already, and a lot of people on Dakka are just waiting for them to do it again. There are a significant number of tournament players on Dakka, and tournament play IS an important, fun and vital part of the game. Concerns about balance in the current version of the game are legit, though this is far less problematic in Blackstone or Kill Team. My point is that some of the advice you're going to get here will be through a competitive filter, and it may not be appropriate, since your preferred opponents will probably be friends and family. 40k's campaign play potential on all 4 scales is incredible.

No other miniature game system in the world can boast that many options or as much support as you'll get from GW.



----

thanks a lot for this thorough and interesting reply. I had heard about Blackstone and found it intriguing. but as I already have quite a few dungeon crawlers (such as Middara) it was not really what I was looking for. However, if I can then use the minis to play Kill Team, it could be nice. Above all as I have indeed seen that there are commanders in KT, although they do not seem heabily played.
I will have to check if there are tournaments/people playing in my city but as it is rather big (Paris in France), I guess there is, although it will probably be less popular thann W40K.

Additionally, before all that, I should probably start by painting my Middara miniatures (which are not as great and detailed as GW ones) as it will be a great learning tool
Hence, I might focus first on finding the right material for painting.
thanks again !

As others have said, the biggest problem is the table. The other criteria are more or less met, but to meet the time and space criteria you need to play at 1000, which then goes agains the criteria of support, because you are not going to find many players playing at 1000.

Kill team is good, but definitely not 30-50 models.

Probably the meeting engagement of AoS is the best fit for your needs, but you would have to ask elsewhere for that. This forum is mostly 40K, there aren't many AoS players.
I do play AoS, but didn't get to have a game in the last months, so i'm a bit out of the loop regarding the news.

Maybe consider Games Workshops 'Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game.

Pros

The game is somewhere between skirmish and full battle sized - anywhere from 10 to 50 miniatures in an 800pts game.

It's played on a 4'x4' table.

Reasonably well balanced - most armies can take on most armies, and there's a decent amount of strategic nuance.

It's comparatively inexpensive to get into, with many of the plastic core troops being comparatively cheaper thanks to being a bit older.

Based on well received novels and films, GW can't retcon an IP they didn't create.

Cons

Not all plastic - some resin and even metal miniatures, which not everyone likes.

No unique setting and lore to learn

Some of the minis are really, really old. Like, just came out when I was a kid old. Admittedly, this is the case with a good amount of 40K and AoS models at this stage, but it's worth bearing in mind.

I'm a pretty big fan myself.

Sounds like Warmachine fits most of those criteria. Check that how the local community is though because it took a hit to the playerbase recently.

I would recommend lion rampant. Medieval skirmish game with 30-60 miniatures /side.

I also think the game Saga could suit your criterias. It has more faction variance.

It's a shame you dont want to collect terrain as it enhances the challenge and the visuals a lot. But maybe a forest, a small hut, some fences and a field would be enough for a good setup. So it's not that big of an investment.

I would stay away from 40k with those criterias, but kill team might work, although you would need much terrain

@OP:

You have a wife and toddlers and want to play 40K?! What have you done when you were single? Sorry pal, but your time is up.

 Haanz wrote:
Maybe consider Games Workshops 'Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game.

Pros

The game is somewhere between skirmish and full battle sized - anywhere from 10 to 50 miniatures in an 800pts game.

It's played on a 4'x4' table.

Reasonably well balanced - most armies can take on most armies, and there's a decent amount of strategic nuance.

It's comparatively inexpensive to get into, with many of the plastic core troops being comparatively cheaper thanks to being a bit older.

Based on well received novels and films, GW can't retcon an IP they didn't create.

Cons

Not all plastic - some resin and even metal miniatures, which not everyone likes.

No unique setting and lore to learn

Some of the minis are really, really old. Like, just came out when I was a kid old. Admittedly, this is the case with a good amount of 40K and AoS models at this stage, but it's worth bearing in mind.

I'm a pretty big fan myself.

Middle Earth doesn't have a unique setting and lore?! really?!