GW's Long Plan for 40k

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Daba**

I hope the prediction is wrong, but I see it being quite right, sadly.

I've always found Apocalypse unfun, and I think it's never really gained traction (too much faff really, especially when regular armies need multiple cases already).

If the stocks take a big hit thanks to this release, it might dissuade them from that path, but who knows.

I think the olive branch to smaller games might have actually done more for their value, as they made a lot of non-customers become customers.

**slave.entity**

PenitentJake wrote:
Aspect warriors will be sold as kill teams with 40k rules in the box and phoenix lords will be blackstone expansions, and they will both sell like hotcakes.

Oh... I like this. But then what will they do with Ynnari?

**oni**

I consider The Gathering Storm W40K's End Times. While it didn't kill off an entire game system, it did forever change the face of W40K.

Regarding the Primaris Marines. They were neat when it was just a handful of them, Intercessors, etc. to spice up the SM line and reinforce SM armies, but now that GW is fleshing out an entire line of them, I've given up on them. I don't like the new models at all or where they're going with Primaris marines. I just don't like what they've done and the precedent they've set. #NotMyMarines.

I was an avid Ultramarines player for years, decades even, but my dislike of the Primaris marines has pushed me to shun the God Emperor and Guilliman and swear fealty to the dark gods of Chaos.

**SeanDrake**

There is no long plan for 40k GW plan financial report to financial report, whatever keeps the share price up will get done previous plans be damned.

**Daba**

SeanDrake wrote:
There is no long plan for 40k GW plan financial report to financial report, whatever keeps the share price up will get done previous plans be damned.

Well, hopefully it will react to game changes. Once they shifted focus back to actually being about games, the stock value increased (multi-fold as well).

I think it's the smaller games re-introduction that helped this rise more, things like Underworlds and the old games being reintroduced like Titanicus, both of which have gained the most 'traction' here (including some ex-WHFB players who didn't touch AOS). These seem to gain former players and new players in a fresh way.

As Apocalypse hasn't been touched since the Kirby days until now (2013) and was part in the stagnation/decline period. Maybe if Apocalypse is in line with a share price drop (maybe due to poor long term volume) they will drop it like the stinky IP it is.

IMO, the better move would be to totally revamp Kill Team, decoupling it from the 40k rule structure entirely, and allow basically a wide variety of units (rather than just bolt gun guys) to be put into it form all factions except heavily curated with options, and introduce some new ones with that, then slowly grow the game and disrupt 40k. Think of it something like a Sony Walkman compared to a large tube RCA radio with nice speakers.

Actually, for all we know, the smaller games they are releasing may be already that. Designed to eat 40k before an external competitor does.

**stonehorse**

It is wholly plausible that we will see a lot of the Eldar line eventually drop off. If they go down more the wraith construct with the odd living Eldar here and there, I can get behind that. The Wraiths give the Eldar a distinctive look and feel, plus they are meant to be a dying race... sending your population to battle with very little protection is a bit dumb... even by 40K standards.

Eldar may be reduced down to:
Farseers,
Spiritseers,
Warlocks,
Jetbikes,
Warwalkers,
Wraithguard,
Wraithblades,
Wraithlords
Wraith knights
Wave serpent,
Falcons,
Night spinner,
Fire prisim,

And a new smaller faster Wraith construct that can be built to replace the varies roles of the Aspect Warriors.

It would help reduce bloat, which let's me fair now 40K has 30 years of.

**dan2026**

Eldar reduced down to just Wraiths, Pskyers and bikes would be the saddest thing ever.

Granted as things stand at the moment that's basically true of their model range.

**Daba**

stonehorse wrote:
It is wholly plausible that we will see a lot of the Eldar line eventually drop off. If they go down more the wraith construct with the odd living Eldar here and there, I can get behind that. The Wraiths give the Eldar a distinctive look and feel, plus they are meant to be a dying race... sending your population to battle with very little protection is a bit dumb... even by 40K standards.

Eldar may be reduced down to:
Farseers,
Spiritseers,
Warlocks,
Jetbikes,
Warwalkers,
Wraithguard,
Wraithblades,
Wraithlords
Wraith knights
Wave serpent,
Falcons,
Night spinner,
Fire prisim,

And a new smaller faster Wraith construct that can be built to replace the varies roles of the Aspect Warriors.

It would help reduce bloat, which let's me fair now 40K has 30 years of.

Eldar might go the same way as Wood Elves in Fantasy/AOS

Wraith units basically are tree units (Wraithlord was like a big treeman), so expect smaller sized wraiths as 'dryads' and the whole line become based round them.

The other 'bodied' Eldar become a different faction, probably as Ynnari or something.

A real shame as the Aspect Warriors are ICONIC and really defined them, and separate factions back in Rogue Trader where before, everyone followed the Marine standard of 10 guys with leader, heavy weapon etc, even Orks and Tyranids. Eldar broke the mould with Aspect Warriors all carrying their unique weapon and actually having no leader.

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

**Grimtuff**

BrianDavion wrote:
"I don't like some of the design decisions" /= "it's bad"

Um, yes. Those mean the same thing in that context. Seriously? Does everyone have to start every bloody post with "in my opinion" to stop this? It was quite clear it was his opinion.

**Strg Alt**

slave.entity wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Aspect warriors will be sold as kill teams with 40k rules in the box and phoenix lords will be blackstone expansions, and they will both sell like hotcakes.

Oh... I like this. But then what will they do with Ynnari?

In contrast to the all encompassing scale creep, shrink ´em. Or in a nutshell: Squat ´em.

**Racerguy180**

Strg Alt wrote:
slave.entity wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Aspect warriors will be sold as kill teams with 40k rules in the box and phoenix lords will be blackstone expansions, and they will both sell like hotcakes.

Oh... I like this. But then what will they do with Ynnari?

In contrast to the all encompassing scale creep, shrink ´em. Or in a nutshell: Squat ´em.

The only reason I ever bought an eldar model is the ynarri. I really like the "last gasps of a dying race" facet to them. With the rift and all the literal chaos pouring into reality, the loss of a large craftworld, etc.. they realize that they're super fckd now and the only* way is to speed up Ynnead.

*probably another way, Isha is found, whatever.

**ServiceGames**

Crispy78 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
what gods haven't they done eneugh with?

Well, Slaanesh and Khorne really. Death Guard and Thousand Sons both have new separate codexes and new models. Khorne are still using Berserkers from last century and Noise Marines don't even have dedicated models (aside from the one model that came out recently), just a conversion kit to go with the (old?) CSM kit.

Honestly surprised that Slaanesh didn't have more of a showing. GW released several new daemon models... why not space marine models to go with them as well as a daemon primarch Fulgrim?

SG

**slave.entity**

GW fleshing out Ynnari with new units seems reasonably likely to me.

New units would appeal to both new and old Eldar players while with an old unit refresh they may lose a good chunk of sales to old players who don't see a need to buy updated models or new players that buy old models off eBay. I'm personally guilty of this since overall I am REALLY not a fan of the current, post-Blanche art direction.

**ERJAK**

SeanDrake wrote:
There is no long plan for 40k GW plan financial report to financial report, whatever keeps the share price up will get done previous plans be damned.

Conflicting information. I've heard from a couple of different sources that their production is mapped out to 3-5 year ahead with wiggle room to pivot for emergencies(such as the sylvaneth SNAFU).

**BrianDavion**

SeanDrake wrote:
There is no long plan for 40k GW plan financial report to financial report, whatever keeps the share price up will get done previous plans be damned.

given that GW designs their minis 2 or so years in advance that's clearly not true.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
"I don't like some of the design decisions" /= "it's bad"

Um, yes. Those mean the same thing in that context. Seriously? Does everyone have to start every bloody post with "in my opinion" to stop this? It was quite clear it was his opinion.

no rather then say "I don't like the game" he said "the game is bad" people need to stop making absolute statements of quality simply because something doesn't fit with their views. I don't find the eldar line all that intreasting, but I'd never say the eldar line "is bad"

**Dysartes**

BrianDavion wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
"I don't like some of the design decisions" /= "it's bad"

Um, yes. Those mean the same thing in that context. Seriously? Does everyone have to start every bloody post with "in my opinion" to stop this? It was quite clear it was his opinion.

no rather then say "I don't like the game" he said "the game is bad" people need to stop making absolute statements of quality simply because something doesn't fit with their views. I don't find the eldar line all that intreasting, but I'd never say the eldar line "is bad"

Indeed - to expand on Brian's example, he might say that an Eldar model is technically well-executed as a sculpt/kit, but not to his taste in terms of aesthetics, instead of just say that the new Spiritseer "is a bad model".

Saying that you're not keen on the card-driven nature of the new Apocalypse is one thing, just saying "Apocalypse is bad" is something else entirely.

N.B. - for the record, I have yet to form an opinion on Apoc either way, aside from being disappointed at no new SH units coming out with the game.

**Commissar Benny**

Hard to say what the future will hold but I will say that our group has created a contingency plan in the event the story/narrative continue to progress in the direction it is heading. We do not like the forced inclusion of primaris & subsequent genocide of basically every space marine chapter in the fluff simply to justify the forced inclusion of primaris into their ranks. Nor do we like how the cornerstones of 40k are being so trivially discarded:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions.
It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times.
Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned.
Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars."

Should GW continue on the path its on, we'll remain the in timeline prior to the Gathering Storm where it was truly mankinds darkest hour. Where the only technological improvements that could be made were those found in lost STC units or Forgeworlds. Where demi-gods weren't the focal point of the setting, but rather the conflicts themselves. 40k is quickly becoming a drama of personalities between Primarchs & less about everything that made 40k great.

**Argive**

Nah. Its all fumbling in the dark trying to drum up new interest to sell models. Fans will leave and new will come. Every year you have a new generation of kids stepping into a GW store for the first time experiencing their version of 40k as the true 40k.....

Regarding the eldar, the reason the aspects are not selling is because they are finescast. They are not top tier units in the mind set of the "meta" but that is why they can be used in competitive games because they can be used to counter the meta as they are sepcialized tool.

I think warp spider spam can be very competitive but I don't have enough warp spiders I managed to find cheap on ebay -(currently 15) nor do I know of anyone with enough warp spiders to try it. Because they are finecast nobody wants to be buying them. Same with all the others and the phoenix lords too.

What could work for the Eldar is plastic multi part light - (Shees, DA, hawks) and heavy aspect Armor( Spiders, Dragons, scorpions & reapers) type box allowing to build 5 of whatever with bits left over(don't laugh... Gw might do bits left over...you never know! yeah...) and a multi part phoenix lord kit that can be built into an exarch or a phoenix lord. with bits left over.

And then an updated autarch chasis that can be used for all those parts to make the autarch that we want.

Of course this is wish listing and will never happen. In reality I could see new plastic Aspect +1 units. Like the phoenix lords return out of legends and re-train their aspects etc. like a primaris lite treatment?

I hope its not a ynarrized aspect treatment. That would be horrible..

**Stormonu**

Daba wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
It is wholly plausible that we will see a lot of the Eldar line eventually drop off. If they go down more the wraith construct with the odd living Eldar here and there, I can get behind that. The Wraiths give the Eldar a distinctive look and feel, plus they are meant to be a dying race... sending your population to battle with very little protection is a bit dumb... even by 40K standards.

Eldar may be reduced down to:
Farseers,
Spiritseers,
Warlocks,
Jetbikes,
Warwalkers,
Wraithguard,
Wraithblades,
Wraithlords
Wraith knights
Wave serpent,
Falcons,
Night spinner,
Fire prisim,

And a new smaller faster Wraith construct that can be built to replace the varies roles of the Aspect Warriors.

It would help reduce bloat, which let's me fair now 40K has 30 years of.

Eldar might go the same way as Wood Elves in Fantasy/AOS

Wraith units basically are tree units (Wraithlord was like a big treeman), so expect smaller sized wraiths as 'dryads' and the whole line become based round them.

The other 'bodied' Eldar become a different faction, probably as Ynnari or something.

A real shame as the Aspect Warriors are ICONIC and really defined them, and separate factions back in Rogue Trader where before, everyone followed the Marine standard of 10 guys with leader, heavy weapon etc, even Orks and Tyranids. Eldar broke the mould with Aspect Warriors all carrying their unique weapon and actually having no leader.

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

It would be different, but I could get behind a "wraith" army for Eldar, with wraith versions of the aspect warriors - with the idea that instead of Eldar succumbing to a path that if they die while in the warrior path they become aspects. Guardians would be the normal line troops, but when an Eldar warrior is slain in battle, their soulstone is transferred into a wraith construct that focuses one of the Eldar's martial aspects, in one aspect honing its skills, but then also condemning it to a life forever after of constant warfare.

Aspect Wraith Swoops (jump troops with angelic wings - fast glass cannons best at harassing flanks)
Aspect Wraith Scorpions (sneaky character hunters - short ranged/melee that can target characters and deal them mortal wounds)
Aspect Wraith Banshees (melee blenders - hard hitting multiple melee attacks)
Aspect Wraith Dragons (vehicle/monster hunters - powerful, but close-quarter weapons that deal multiple wounds to single targets)
Aspect Wraith Reapers (infantry hunters - blast/multishot weapons designed to kill large numbers of troops, but relatively low strength)
Aspect Wraith Spiders (objective takers - fast w/ heavy weapons for short ranged combat, very durable)

**Just Tony**

Nvs wrote:
I have a couple issues...

Eldar likely haven't gotten new Aspect Warriors because GW knows they won't sell any. Aspects for the Eldar line fill a very narrow niche in player's lists and that niche is often filled with fewer than 10 of those models. So old players are unlikely to ever actually purchase the new models as a whole, only those who like the new look. The only way GW sells 'new' models is by giving them new rules and options. Thus the Primaris situation. Do you think Primaris would sell well if they were simply upscaled versions of the old models? Only players who wanted the new models would ever buy them. But now they have found a way to make old and new players want to buy Primaris. Mark my words... 10 years from now we're going to see 'Assault Primaris Marines' and 'Primaris Teminators' and that will be the end of the Marine line.

Eldar are in a very similar boat. It has been what, a decade since they've gotten a new model? And those models were Wraithguard and bikers? GW knows that the only way they'll sell new Eldar models at this point is to replace them, thus Ynnead. We are almost certainly going to see no support for 'mini marines' within 10 years. I'd bet you $5 we will never see Eldar Aspects redone and instead GW will find some justification to introduce new aspects and 10 years from that point, we'll get a new Eldar codex with no old aspect warriors.

I simply disagree... I think we're living through the end-times and I honestly don't know how I feel about it. All I do know is I hope GW takes advantage of it for the good of the game and takes this oppurtunity to scale back the number of Imperium books to fewer than 5 instead of the what, 15 different ones currently?

I'll watch the video tonight when I have time.

Aspect Warriors can be done as a 5 person team with swap out arms and heads. It's totally doable but for some reason it gets bypassed.

**Insectum7**

Stormonu wrote:
Daba wrote:
stonehorse wrote:
It is wholly plausible that we will see a lot of the Eldar line eventually drop off. If they go down more the wraith construct with the odd living Eldar here and there, I can get behind that. The Wraiths give the Eldar a distinctive look and feel, plus they are meant to be a dying race... sending your population to battle with very little protection is a bit dumb... even by 40K standards.

Eldar may be reduced down to:
Farseers,
Spiritseers,
Warlocks,
Jetbikes,
Warwalkers,
Wraithguard,
Wraithblades,
Wraithlords
Wraith knights
Wave serpent,
Falcons,
Night spinner,
Fire prisim,

And a new smaller faster Wraith construct that can be built to replace the varies roles of the Aspect Warriors.

It would help reduce bloat, which let's me fair now 40K has 30 years of.

Eldar might go the same way as Wood Elves in Fantasy/AOS

Wraith units basically are tree units (Wraithlord was like a big treeman), so expect smaller sized wraiths as 'dryads' and the whole line become based round them.

The other 'bodied' Eldar become a different faction, probably as Ynnari or something.

A real shame as the Aspect Warriors are ICONIC and really defined them, and separate factions back in Rogue Trader where before, everyone followed the Marine standard of 10 guys with leader, heavy weapon etc, even Orks and Tyranids. Eldar broke the mould with Aspect Warriors all carrying their unique weapon and actually having no leader.

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

It would be different, but I could get behind a "wraith" army for Eldar, with wraith versions of the aspect warriors - with the idea that instead of Eldar succumbing to a path that if they die while in the warrior path they become aspects. Guardians would be the normal line troops, but when an Eldar warrior is slain in battle, their soulstone is transferred into a wraith construct that focuses one of the Eldar's martial aspects, in one aspect honing its skills, but then also condemning it to a life forever after of constant warfare.

Aspect Wraith Swoops (jump troops with angelic wings - fast glass cannons best at harassing flanks)
Aspect Wraith Scorpions (sneaky character hunters - short ranged/melee that can target characters and deal them mortal wounds)
Aspect Wraith Banshees (melee blenders - hard hitting multiple melee attacks)
Aspect Wraith Dragons (vehicle/monster hunters - powerful, but close-quarter weapons that deal multiple wounds to single targets)
Aspect Wraith Reapers (infantry hunters - blast/multishot weapons designed to kill large numbers of troops, but relatively low strength)
Aspect Wraith Spiders (objective takers - fast w/ heavy weapons for short ranged combat, very durable)

Ugh. I'm reluctant to just crap on someones suggestion, but that's about as imaginative as more marinier marines. "Same thing, but bigger!" is basically the mantra of Primaris design philosophy and it is boooorring.

**123ply**

The though of Space Marines losing their real tanks, to be replaced purely by hover vehicles pisses me off to no end. How much more out of character can you get? Not to mention that its super cheesy and every sci fi universe is already filles with hover craft. This is 40k, damnit! I dont care about Eldar but the Aspect Warriors are really cool, as are the tanks of the Space Marines and Guard. I hate thise trens they have been following so closely: Restricting a core part of the game, personalization, to nothing but colour schemes.

I want my dudes to be my dudes, not their dudes. Heck, I cant even take a Primaris Master with a plasma pistol and power sword simply because they dont have a model with those weapons despite the DA Primaris LT. having them, and other Primaris kits they are scattered around in.

Then, I cant use Land Raiders and Rhinos in Primaris armies either if I want them as transports. Its like GW never once thought that maybe these new marines can be taught how to drive a Land Raider?

Everything is messed up. I remember when Scions couldnt take vox casters with lasguns simply because the official model/ instructions had him holding a just a pistol. Its beyond pathetic. Biggest sore losers ever... they lose a case in court and punish the customer base for it in laziest way possible.

**Eldarsif**

stonehorse wrote:
It is wholly plausible that we will see a lot of the Eldar line eventually drop off. If they go down more the wraith construct with the odd living Eldar here and there, I can get behind that. The Wraiths give the Eldar a distinctive look and feel, plus they are meant to be a dying race... sending your population to battle with very little protection is a bit dumb... even by 40K standards.

Eldar may be reduced down to:
Farseers,
Spiritseers,
Warlocks,
Jetbikes,
Warwalkers,
Wraithguard,
Wraithblades,
Wraithlords
Wraith knights
Wave serpent,
Falcons,
Night spinner,
Fire prisim,

And a new smaller faster Wraith construct that can be built to replace the varies roles of the Aspect Warriors.

It would help reduce bloat, which let's me fair now 40K has 30 years of.

They could also port the Wraithseer over and make the Bonesinger into plastic and they'd have a solid Wraith-only army. You also forgot the Hemlock Wraithfighter. So the line is there for the taking(or rather, being fleshed out into its own book). They technically released a Faction Codex Expansion for Iyanden a long time ago so maybe they've always had it on the to do list to expand Iyanden into its own thing. Similar to Covens for Drukhari.

Personally I wouldn't think it to be far fetched if they'd make two Eldar armies where one would be more like Idoneth Deepkin and another more like Sylvaneth.

**PenitentJake**

123ply wrote:
The though of Space Marines losing their real tanks, to be replaced purely by hover vehicles pisses me off to no end. How much more out of character can you get? Not to mention that its super cheesy and every sci fi universe is already filles with hover craft. This is 40k, damnit! I dont care about Eldar but the Aspect Warriors are really cool, as are the tanks of the Space Marines and Guard. I hate thise trens they have been following so closely: Restricting a core part of the game, personalization, to nothing but colour schemes.

Are we playing the same game? Because in 8th, an Order of Our Martyred lady Sister plays differently than an Order of the Sacred Rose. A Cult of the Red Grief Wych plays differently than a Blade Denied Wych.

This is the first time any faction other than space marines have had different rules options for different Orders/ Hive Fleets/ Kabals/ Cults, etc.

Up UNTIL now, our only variation was colour scheme. The new system is the beginning of making EVERY army as detailed as space marines. Don't know about you, but I've been waiting 30 years for them to do that.

**Nvs**

PenitentJake wrote:
123ply wrote:
The though of Space Marines losing their real tanks, to be replaced purely by hover vehicles pisses me off to no end. How much more out of character can you get? Not to mention that its super cheesy and every sci fi universe is already filles with hover craft. This is 40k, damnit! I dont care about Eldar but the Aspect Warriors are really cool, as are the tanks of the Space Marines and Guard. I hate thise trens they have been following so closely: Restricting a core part of the game, personalization, to nothing but colour schemes.

Are we playing the same game? Because in 8th, an Order of Our Martyred lady Sister plays differently than an Order of the Sacred Rose. A Cult of the Red Grief Wych plays differently than a Blade Denied Wych.

This is the first time any faction other than space marines have had different rules options for different Orders/ Hive Fleets/ Kabals/ Cults, etc.

Up UNTIL now, our only variation was colour scheme. The new system is the beginning of making EVERY army as detailed as space marines. Don't know about you, but I've been waiting 30 years for them to do that.

That's not really true. Eldar have had unique Craftworld rules for a long time. Orks had different rules at least at one point. Tau kind of had different rules for Farisght conclaves. Chaos has had different rules based off the Chaos gods. Even IG had different rules at one point with Jungle Fighters didn't they?

So we've always had this extra level of flavor available to us, it's just been done in different ways throughout the years. But the original posters point I think is that there are certain things that Warhammer 40k is known for. More people probably know what a Space Marine is than what either Games Workshop or Warhammer are. It's a brand. There was a giant metal Space Marine outside of their HQ in Maryland for a long time as a matter of fact. Certain things just shouldn't be messed with imo. Iterate slightly, but keep the brand alive. But that's just my opinion. Just as many people like Primaris as despise them.

**Daba**

The problem with space marine hover tanks is it dilutes the imagery of both them and the other factions.

Instead of strong archetypes, it becomes more of a mush where everything is the same generic tacticool guy.

**BrianDavion**

Daba wrote:
The problem with space marine hover tanks is it dilutes the imagery of both them and the other factions.

Instead of strong archetypes, it becomes more of a mush where everything is the same generic tacticool guy.

how does space marine hover tanks dilute the image of them?

**Huron black heart**

GW's long plan for 40k has nothing to do with 40k itself, but with making as much money as possible. They're not creating new rules sets that allow you to play old models out of some sort of nostalgic loyalty (even if this has happened) they're doing it to sell more models.
Apocalypse has been released so that for example, people go out and buy three landraiders, or if you're like me and already own one, so that you consider buying two more.

**Tyranid Horde**

GW will follow the demand they had for Sisters and give Eldar players the plastic Aspect Warriors that have been asked for since they discontinued their metal casting.

The demand is definitely there, new and old players will lap that stuff up.

Someone said it's a simple head and arm swap for aspect warriors, it's really not that simple.

**bullyboy**

Eldar Aspects, Exarchs, Autarchs really can't go, they are so iconic and have some of the best features of Eldar. Just look at the artwork in Deathwatch codex where they are facing the Avatar. That image of the Swooping Hawk Exarch is ridiculous and cannot leave this setting. At least not while we have dumb looking hover landing craft, etc.