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Hail warmasters

I would like to discuss the viability of renegades and heretics in apocalypse.
It is common knowledge that FW dropped the ball with r&h for 40k especially with covenants and Troop choices. But with the covenants in apocalypse and the points drop for Troops I would like to discuss how good this army will be, unit analysis and how to use them.

Your thoughts are welcome.


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Here is the index https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VVkfTdtjQwnB1rI5Rl8O3X5d_Xb8tABw/view?usp=drivesdk


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I believe both Militia and mutants really standout and most improved.
Militia cost 1/3 of a unit of cultist and lot more weapon options but still hit on 5+.
Mutants on the other hand cost the same as cultist but have +1 to movement, armour and wound rolls in melee. Also you can have 10-50 guys in a unit. This is great for melee focused armies (slannesh or khrone) or as a tough screen (tzennesh or nurgle). Their moral will be tough to manage especially since enforcers are nerfed (re roll natural 6s but take a blast marker).

I don't really know enough about them.

The best way to analyze units imo is to build cohesive detachments with good synergy and compare a functional detachment. Build some detachments and post them for us to look at.

they do look fairly interesting and the nature of apoc makes it much easier to salt in other chaos factions thematically.

I actually like the look of disciple with heavy weapons in squads of 5. Fairly cheap for a 3 plus heavy weapon of choice

 Lance845 wrote:
I don't really know enough about them.

The best way to analyze units imo is to build cohesive detachments with good synergy and compare a functional detachment. Build some detachments and post them for us to look at.

Will do when they release a good army builder for them lol.
Excel may do it in a pinch but hard to compare.


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stratigo wrote:
they do look fairly interesting and the nature of apoc makes it much easier to salt in other chaos factions thematically.

I actually like the look of disciple with heavy weapons in squads of 5. Fairly cheap for a 3 plus heavy weapon of choice

Yeah it's the same in 40k and hit on 3+ and flak armour it's great

All I know about RnH is that they can make 3 PL Patrols to really squeeze in card draw.

Well, its obviously also a random slap and not something well-thought out.

I mean, Tzeentch is silly on tanks for example. especially the Minotaur.
Spawn obvious typo that they are suddenly a bit slower when 3 models compared to any other number.

I mean, its better than the 40k index, but that's hardly a milestone.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, its obviously also a random slap and not something well-thought out.

I mean, Tzeentch is silly on tanks for example. especially the Minotaur.
Spawn obvious typo that they are suddenly a bit slower when 3 models compared to any other number.

I mean, its better than the 40k index, but that's hardly a milestone.

Very accurate comment.
Still a step in the right direction from the 40k index.
Still missing the keyword of the chaos god.

Argueably covered by the covenant and intentionally not shared to prevent the cross-chaos shenanigans we keep trying to abuse whenever something chaos comes

Not really worth it for apocalypse, at least with current rules. R&H need a massive overhaul to be competitive in any sense, so I won't hold my breathe.

Well the covenants don't need to be shared across the army. Only the detachment. And you tend to want to build detachments to be focused on certain jobs. So you build a all melee detachment that wants to get into peoples faces make it Khorne or slannesh. Spec it for how you want it.

Somebody would need to explain to me the issues. I am too unfamiliar with the army to see the problems while digging through unfamiliar data sheets.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Argueably covered by the covenant and intentionally not shared to prevent the cross-chaos shenanigans we keep trying to abuse whenever something chaos comes

LOL fair comment.
But I would like it if my nurgle militia didnt die to my nurgle abilities. But true I would try and manipulate it so they benefit from other nurgle factions.

 Lance845 wrote:
Well the covenants don't need to be shared across the army. Only the detachment. And you tend to want to build detachments to be focused on certain jobs. So you build a all melee detachment that wants to get into peoples faces make it Khorne or slannesh. Spec it for how you want it.

Somebody would need to explain to me the issues. I am too unfamiliar with the army to see the problems while digging through unfamiliar data sheets.

Honestly? No cards. Cards make the game, and there simply aren't enough good generics to run with. Chaos marines have some AMAZING cards for example. Like, give a detachment a free shoot kind of stuff. It's real strong.

Unit wise... RnH are actually pretty solid. I think they have a fairly cheap way of massing a few different things, like cheap AT, but I wouldn't suggest running nothing but them.

stratigo wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Well the covenants don't need to be shared across the army. Only the detachment. And you tend to want to build detachments to be focused on certain jobs. So you build a all melee detachment that wants to get into peoples faces make it Khorne or slannesh. Spec it for how you want it.

Somebody would need to explain to me the issues. I am too unfamiliar with the army to see the problems while digging through unfamiliar data sheets.

Honestly? No cards. Cards make the game, and there simply aren't enough good generics to run with. Chaos marines have some AMAZING cards for example. Like, give a detachment a free shoot kind of stuff. It's real strong.

Unit wise... RnH are actually pretty solid. I think they have a fairly cheap way of massing a few different things, like cheap AT, but I wouldn't suggest running nothing but them.

That makes sense, definitely supports the allies only argument just like in 40k.