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 Albertorius wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If we're talking about rules, that's a major gripe for me in terms of bombers. It's pretty absurd that a Marauder Destroyer is able to get guns on target against a fighter aircraft. I'd like to see to-hit bonuses and penalties based on the agility of the plane firing vs the agility of the one being fired upon.

That's mainly what I was getting at, yes: we're already there with all sorts of stuff, there's not really a need to single out nids.

But those sorts of things can exist in AI, it's just how they function now is absurd and ideally should be changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:
Thinking about Drew Carey and the Necrons for a moment...

Dark Eldar have the Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing Jetfighter from current 40k - I'm fairly sure they used to have a flyer from FW, but I can't remember what it was. Either way, that would put them on par with Eldar, with a fighter and a bomber, though without a Vampire-equivalent should GW produce that for the Eldar. Is there any mention in the DE background stuff of a flyer larger than the Voidraven?

Necrons have the Night Scythe - but that seems to be it, though an emplacements pack of Monoliths would be cool. Again, I'm less familiar with Necron lore - if we're brainstorming, are there any mentions of other Necron flyers that'd be available, or would something need to be invented whole cloth?

So far I *think* GW have limited themselves to Forge World aircraft.

It'll be interesting to see if they branch out away from the original FW aircraft.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If we're talking about rules, that's a major gripe for me in terms of bombers. It's pretty absurd that a Marauder Destroyer is able to get guns on target against a fighter aircraft. I'd like to see to-hit bonuses and penalties based on the agility of the plane firing vs the agility of the one being fired upon.

That's mainly what I was getting at, yes: we're already there with all sorts of stuff, there's not really a need to single out nids.

But those sorts of things can exist in AI, it's just how they function now is absurd and ideally should be changed.

Yes, I agree, and by that same rule, if Valkyries exist in the game, and they're basically helicopters with wings, big flying tyranid creatures shouldn't be hard to do right too.

 Dysartes wrote:
Dark Eldar have the Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing Jetfighter from current 40k - I'm fairly sure they used to have a flyer from FW, but I can't remember what it was. Either way, that would put them on par with Eldar, with a fighter and a bomber, though without a Vampire-equivalent should GW produce that for the Eldar. Is there any mention in the DE background stuff of a flyer larger than the Voidraven?

Necrons have the Night Scythe - but that seems to be it, though an emplacements pack of Monoliths would be cool. Again, I'm less familiar with Necron lore - if we're brainstorming, are there any mentions of other Necron flyers that'd be available, or would something need to be invented whole cloth?

You may be thinking of the original Dark Eldar Razorwing:



They also had the old Raven Figher:



Necrons also got the Night Shroud Bomber from Forgeworld as well.

Thanks for the recap, zed - I think I prefer the modern Drew Carey flyers, but that even-bigger-croissant fills a necessary gap for the Necrons, at least.

I'm not sure what your malfunction is when it comes to the Valkyrie (and presumably the Vendetta), Albertorius - they're VTOL aircraft, not helicopters. You wouldn't describe a Harrier Jump Jet as a helicopter, would you? Even the text blurb for them on the GW site describes them as taking on enemy aircraft.

 Albertorius wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If we're talking about rules, that's a major gripe for me in terms of bombers. It's pretty absurd that a Marauder Destroyer is able to get guns on target against a fighter aircraft. I'd like to see to-hit bonuses and penalties based on the agility of the plane firing vs the agility of the one being fired upon.

That's mainly what I was getting at, yes: we're already there with all sorts of stuff, there's not really a need to single out nids.

But those sorts of things can exist in AI, it's just how they function now is absurd and ideally should be changed.

Yes, I agree, and by that same rule, if Valkyries exist in the game, and they're basically helicopters with wings, big flying tyranid creatures shouldn't be hard to do right too.

I guess I agree with that also, but where my mind falls short is AI being a dogfighting game, slow helicopter-like flyers shouldn't be able to function as a force in and of themselves.

Like, currently, yeah, a squadron of solely Valkyries is a viable force (in fact I'd argue an overpowered one!), but I think the way AI should function is a squadron solely of Valkyries wouldn't be a viable force, they'd need fighter support or get rapidly blown out of the sky.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I mostly disagree, Tyranids don't need air superiority in the sense of being able to out-dogfight Imperial fighters, they can just swarm the skies with critters so the enemy aircraft are no longer able to support their troops on the ground.

I have heard similar arguments of "they don't need them" for things the Eldar now have and which are in no way controversial.

For example, way back in 2nd edition, I recall someone asking about Eldar tanks and APCs (this was before any Eldar vehicle models other than the jetbike existed, though the wedge Falcon and old Wave Serpent did exist in Epic) and one person said "Eldar wouldn't use anything as crude as tanks to take out enemy armored vehicles." Then <insert some rationale for why they could get by without> (I forget what it was but I am guessing it probably involved invoking swarms of jetbikes armed with heavy weapons).

Similarly I recall someone ask about Eldar battleships in BFG (before the Void Stalker battleship was released) and again the response was along the lines of "battleships are too big and clumsy for the Eldar so they don't use them and get by with lots of smaller more maneuverable ships."

In both those cases, as soon as the Falcon tank and Void Stalker battleship respectively were released, all such lines of reasoning ceased and were never heard from again.

Even in the 1st AI, I think that same line of argument was used when all the Tyranids had for models was the Harridan and the Meiotic spore. Since then there has been the Harpy and Crone released which are more ground attack and anti-air creatures respectively.

You're right in that I agree wings are not the best way to portray air superiority organisms. I would have preferred something like Wayne Barlowe's Skewer (just google it). However GW has done what it has done because they clearly don't agree with that claim of the Tyranids not needing air superiority organisms as that is the role the Crone is explicitly described as filling, and they have chosen wings, perhaps because that is more simply visually organic to a random viewer than having some sleek aerodynamic organic jet organism. Since the Tyranids have now been shown to have such organisms, the task is to make them work rather than try to pretend they don't exist.

Reminds me of Tau.

In 3rd/4th edition - "Tau don't use superheavy walkers or tanks because they are too static for the Tau style of warfare which emphasizes mobility and fluidity, thats why all the Taus superheavy weaponry are mounted on aircraft".

Today - "This KV128 Stormsurge is the Tau equivalent of a Knight Paladin, and the KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour is somewhere between an Acastus Knight Poryphrion and a Warhound Titan."

chaos0xomega wrote:
Reminds me of Tau.

In 3rd/4th edition - "Tau don't use superheavy walkers or tanks because they are too static for the Tau style of warfare which emphasizes mobility and fluidity, thats why all the Taus superheavy weaponry are mounted on aircraft".

To be fair, that was always not really true in practice, as their armies pretty quickly degenerated into a giant static gunline.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Reminds me of Tau.

In 3rd/4th edition - "Tau don't use superheavy walkers or tanks because they are too static for the Tau style of warfare which emphasizes mobility and fluidity, thats why all the Taus superheavy weaponry are mounted on aircraft".

Today - "This KV128 Stormsurge is the Tau equivalent of a Knight Paladin, and the KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour is somewhere between an Acastus Knight Poryphrion and a Warhound Titan."

Fluff always comes after models. The original fluff was that way because they didn't had those models.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Reminds me of Tau.

In 3rd/4th edition - "Tau don't use superheavy walkers or tanks because they are too static for the Tau style of warfare which emphasizes mobility and fluidity, thats why all the Taus superheavy weaponry are mounted on aircraft".

To be fair, that was always not really true in practice, as their armies pretty quickly degenerated into a giant static gunline.

Yes, but that argument is more subjective and would derail us into a separate discussion about how 3rd/4th ed Tau armies played correctly weren't static gunlines and how the Fish of Fury maneuver which was popular at the time was a masterstroke of fluid and mobile maneuver-based warfare strategy.

OTOH, they were pretty mobile in Epic.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
So far I *think* GW have limited themselves to Forge World aircraft.

It'll be interesting to see if they branch out away from the original FW aircraft.

I doubt they will. The "specialist games" stuff is made by the FW team and so far very little, aside from Imperial Knights and Dakkajet variants, have been ported over from the main 40k product line.

Personally, I'd rather FW designs new stuff like they're doing for Necromunda.

Tyranids with flappy wings in AI could be … interesting.

Some thoughts: Movement 0-3, no need to choose maneuvers, a bunch of autonomous weapons, maybe the only faction (apart from chaos heldrake) with some form of flying close combat attack?

Speed 3 is pretty terrible even for bomber/ground attack unit, pretty much a sitting duck and easily outranged by any aircraft, in bombing mission they'll be too slow to reach the goal, and in "The Chase" that's a 100% unwinable.

A non-mechanical unit might not function exactly like a machine but basic physics still apply to maneuverability like speed and momentum

I checked the Harridan's rule and it is in fact can move at supersonic speed, so 6+

Chopstick wrote:
Speed 3 is pretty terrible even for bomber/ground attack unit, pretty much a sitting duck and easily outranged by any aircraft, in bombing mission they'll be too slow to reach the goal, and in "The Chase" that's a 100% unwinable.

A non-mechanical unit might not function exactly like a machine but basic physics still apply to maneuverability like speed and momentum

Speed 3 would probably be appropriate for flappy type flyers, perhaps even a bit too fast. Speed 5 is Valkyrie speed, and those things supposedly go transonic speeds in the fluff, so Speed 3 would probably still be more than a few hundred km/h, probably faster than your average modern general aviation prop aircraft.

Maybe if we still had the rules where you'd gain trade speed for altitude there could be rules which would allow flapping flyers to tuck their wings in and dive at higher speeds, like Peregrine Falcons do.

I could see something akin to a flying squid for Tyranids. they move surprisingly fast in water and using the Hive Mind to manipulate gravity (Float like the zoanthropes), could easily create propulsion for short distances. Plus tentacles that hit close combat opponents would make sense.

Chopstick wrote:
I checked the Harridan's rule and it is in fact can move at supersonic speed, so 6+

I don't think the supersonic rule in 40k the game actually means supersonic, it just means the thing takes large sweeping manoeuvres.

In the fluff it looks like Harridans maybe have an estimated top speed of 200km/h? Which is still faster than any bird can fly through flapping.

Chopstick wrote:
Speed 3 is pretty terrible even for bomber/ground attack unit, pretty much a sitting duck and easily outranged by any aircraft,

That is the point, sort of. Obviously there would need to be other rules to compensate for this (like a ‚shield‘ cloud?). Also they could have a whole lot of floating mines for area control, maybe using them to tighten a net around their opponents, or screen their larger flyers.

in bombing mission they'll be too slow to reach the goal, and in "The Chase" that's a 100% unwinable.

Well, yeah. Chase with slow flyers might be difficult.

A non-mechanical unit might not function exactly like a machine but basic physics still apply to maneuverability like speed and momentum

I checked the Harridan's rule and it is in fact can move at supersonic speed, so 6+

Slow flying flappy beasts should be maneuvrable in a way that does not bind them to the numbered maneuvers, imho. But another way to show this could be that they don‘t have to choose in advance, so they can react more flexibly.

I also liked the other idea about a high-speed dive.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
I checked the Harridan's rule and it is in fact can move at supersonic speed, so 6+

In the fluff it looks like Harridans maybe have an estimated top speed of 200km/h? Which is still faster than any bird can fly through flapping.

200kph is less than speed 1, the valkyrie has a maximum speed of 1100 km/h and cruising speed at 800, and it is the slowest aircraft.

There are 2 ways I can think of that would reflect the speed limitations on Tyranids.

1 dive bombing ala peregrine falcon the gain altitude and drop down gaining more speed

2 highly reactive and melee capable. They can react to the movement of other aircraft as they move close by and attack them. Or stop in mid air and let an enemy catch up so they can fight them.

Chopstick wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
I checked the Harridan's rule and it is in fact can move at supersonic speed, so 6+

In the fluff it looks like Harridans maybe have an estimated top speed of 200km/h? Which is still faster than any bird can fly through flapping.

200kph is less than speed 1, the valkyrie has a maximum speed of 1100 km/h and cruising speed at 800, and it is the slowest aircraft.

Doesn't the Eavy Bommer have a speed of 4? I think that's the slowest. I don't know if the Eavy Bommer has a fluff speed, would have to dig up my old Aeronautica books to see.

But yeah, I dunno what would be an appropriate speed for a Tyranid flyer. My gut feeling is simply they shouldn't fly fast, lol. Moving at speeds of 600+km/h takes huge amounts of power sustained for long periods, especially if the flyer isn't aerodynamically clean. Spitfires needed in the realm of 2000hp to reach speeds of 700km/h. Is that a power a Tyranid flyer could output while still being light enough to be manoeuvrable and as aerodynamically clean as a Spitfire? Maybe.

Eh, dunno... after all there's animals on Earth's waters that actually use biological jet propulsion, so... I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility for them to actually have jet fighter equivalents.

 Albertorius wrote:
Eh, dunno... after all there's animals on Earth's waters that actually use biological jet propulsion, so... I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility for them to actually have jet fighter equivalents.

I think it's more the power requirements thing. My Spitfire example was a plane that is pushing beyond the efficiency curve of a piston engine driving a prop, but even a jet, say the Me262, needed 2200hp output to go 900km/h.

I'm not saying you can't invent fluff to make it happen, but in my mind I prefer the idea of Tyranids, being biological, not even trying to compete on a 1:1 basis with the machines of other races. Rather they come up with novel ways to exploit the advantages of being biological while minimising the effects of the downsides. Like, a Tyranid's gun doesn't need to much the muzzle energy of a high calibre rifle round because the Tyranid's ammo is literally alive, and maybe acidic, or maybe alive and acidic. The same way, Tyranids don't need supersonic jet bioforms, it's far more efficient for the hive mind to turn the biomass into a swarm of spores and gargoyles that render enemy planes useless rather than coming up with biological ways of trying to produce sustained levels of thousands of horsepower like is simple for a combustion style engine.

It just takes a huge amount of power to move at those speeds. The Imperial aircraft may have the aerodynamics of bricks but the assumption there is future humans have developed sufficiently powerful engines compared to what is available now to make the brickness irrelevant.

Uh, GW already fudged Tyranids into having a biological version of literally every relevant 40k technology up to and including air superiority fighters. You can like it or not but there's no question whether they could, they have.

Agreed with skink - the idea that the hive mind just figured out bio-solutions to produce 1:1 biological versions of tech is lame. The idea of a tyranid bio-form that has a weird bio-turbojet engine built into it is just dumb, etc. etc. etc.

Innovating to create novel bio-based solutions to challenges posed by technology on the other hand is cool.

Marine profiles up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/29/unlock-versatility-lethal-aggression-and-onboard-repairmen-with-the-astartes-in-wrath-of-angels/

chaos0xomega wrote:
Agreed with skink - the idea that the hive mind just figured out bio-solutions to produce 1:1 biological versions of tech is lame. The idea of a tyranid bio-form that has a weird bio-turbojet engine built into it is just dumb, etc. etc. etc.

Innovating to create novel bio-based solutions to challenges posed by technology on the other hand is cool.

Agree. Every faction should feel unique, and if Tyranids arrive in AI, and embrace their biological quirks, could be the most unique of them all.

But first I will have to paint some Eldar and lose against Marines.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It just takes a huge amount of power to move at those speeds. The Imperial aircraft may have the aerodynamics of bricks but the assumption there is future humans have developed sufficiently powerful engines compared to what is available now to make the brickness irrelevant.

Of course, then you get again to the "power requirements" issue, which is basically shared by everyone.

TheGoodGerman wrote:
But first I will have to paint some Eldar and lose against Marines.

I hope not, but I fear so

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

TheGoodGerman wrote:
But first I will have to paint some Eldar and lose against Marines.

I hope not, but I fear so

Did I see that right? All Space Marines flyers have quad lascannons? That means firepower 0-4-2, dmg 2+, extra damage 6+, correct?