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I personally think it would be great, but I doubt other factions have the popularity to pull it off.

It works with Marines because the range and variety is also massive. It *could* work with Guard and Orks.

Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

 flandarz wrote:
Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

Something something red-headed stepchild.

GW seems to constantly forget this faction exists to the point it seems deliberate.

 flandarz wrote:
Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

Have you ever read their Codex?

Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're far from "just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons".
-Basically everyone's a Psyker.
-Force Weapons everywhere.

GK need love, just copy/pastaing them into a "supplement" for SM would be absolute trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

Something something red-headed stepchild.

GW seems to constantly forget this faction exists to the point it seems deliberate.

Funny, that's what people said about Drukhari and Sisters of Battle.

With GW it's a crapshoot. Especially the 40K team who seem to be totally clueless. Maybe they will, maybe they won't

 Ishagu wrote:
I personally think it would be great, but I doubt other factions have the popularity to pull it off.

It works with Marines because the range and variety is also massive. It *could* work with Guard and Orks.

Personally, the ones I think it would work best with:

-Guard(Break it into Light, Armored, and Mechanized though)
-Orks(Goffs, Deffskulls, etc)
-Craftworlds(Notably: Alaitoc, Iyanden, Saim-Hann)
-Drukhari(Haemonculi, Wyches, Kabals)
-CSM...but with the focus being on IW, NL, AL, WB, etc--not EC/WE.
-GSC(Break it into Brood Brothers, Atalans, and Cult proper)


I wouldn't just do "X <Chapter/Regiment/Whatever>" gets a book.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

Have you ever read their Codex?

Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're far from "just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons".
-Basically everyone's a Psyker.
-Force Weapons everywhere.

GK need love, just copy/pastaing them into a "supplement" for SM would be absolute trash.

Well, that is exactly 2 differences from a conventional Space Marine. You're 100% right. That DEFINITELY requires an entire book's worth of rules.

People understand that GW can easily create new units for everyone right? That space marines aren't just magically capable of getting tones of new units and miniatures?

Up until a few years ago, marines had less units. 20 years ago their army was tiny.

I'm pretty tired of non marines being told to stay in their 3rd class Lane. They are still sold as equal army choices for 40k.

GW can't even UPDATE existing non marine armies with Proper plastic for existing units and they are doubling the size of the marine unit offerings.

Every army has been completely left behind by the marine army list.

Which starts creating practical problems - every non marine army starts having to be more capable to compete with all the options marines get.

The tiny number of tau and eldar units need to be able to compete with a huge range of marine units. So we get power creep.

And then marine players get angry that non marine armies are better than then so GW releases New marine units with even more narrow uses and buffs their skills.

If GW actually kept all their armies on a similar level, you wouldn't get this

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why would you do supplements for the Auxiliaries?

You'd do Farsight Enclaves, basically, as the only one. It'd give you The Eight and Farsight himself. You could maybe do a Rapid Insertion Cadre or something like that as their own book, but even then it would just be a variation.

Now, if you want to argue that Kroot should get a supplement...ehhhhhhhhh. They'd need some more units before that can really happen.

I mean I personally would want an auxiliaries supplement specifically so that we could see the concept expanded upon and some new units introduced. New kroot would be cool, but I would love to see Demigurge and gue'vesa and other auxiliaries that only get a passing mention in the fluff get some tabletop rules. Farsight Enclaves could have a supplement as well since they have had one in the past. But I feel like all their stuff fits into the main codex, and isn't really bloating anything by being there. Whereas the auxiliaries are basically useless without some new rules and options to make them worth taking over more fire warriors.

I got into Tau because I liked the idea of the mech suits, but I also liked the idea of mixed groups of aliens making up for each others weaknesses on the battlefield and I would love to see that expanded on in more detail.

 flandarz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

Have you ever read their Codex?

Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're far from "just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons".
-Basically everyone's a Psyker.
-Force Weapons everywhere.

GK need love, just copy/pastaing them into a "supplement" for SM would be absolute trash.

Well, that is exactly 2 differences from a conventional Space Marine. You're 100% right. That DEFINITELY requires an entire book's worth of rules.

There are fluff wise and rules wise some very signifigant hurdles here.

Primaris was developed by Cawl and for the origional legions. Grey knights geneseed is not from one of the origional legions so theoredically thier codex may never see primaris.

rules wise they don't share very many rules with the normal space marines, thier equipment is all completely different. it woudl be liek saying here this is codex orks but we replaced every weaopn option with options from the demon codex and all the units have completely different names and profiles... now lets put em in one book. thier wargear and profiels are so different it would be basically a special entry for every single unit. Even the units that share a kit with normal marines (land raiders, storm ravens/talons, a few hq generic models, and drednaughts) all have special wargear that would be different enough to kind of seem pointless to put in a normal shared space marine book.

note I am all for consolidating space marines into one main book with seperate chapter books for fluff but I think grey knights shoudl still be seperate unless GW really wans to rework them and somehow Cawl figures out greyknights geneseed.

My Necrons haven't had a new, non-FW unit added to the army for over 6 years now (Obelisk came out in July 2013). Yes, we had two resin models redone in plastic, but that doesn't change the army list at all.

Am I expecting to get a half dozen new supplements for my army? No. I'm not even really expecting to see a new unit added in the next couple of years.

GW is TERRIBLE at equally supporting its different factions. I'm really close to just shelving the game and deciding how I feel whenever my army gets an update.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Why are the GKs not a part of this new SM Codex+Supplement thing already? Canonically and gameplay-wise, they're just Space Marines with extra focus on and abilities for fighting daemons.

Something something red-headed stepchild.

GW seems to constantly forget this faction exists to the point it seems deliberate.

Funny, that's what people said about Drukhari and Sisters of Battle.

And still say about Drukhari... we just got lucky on a couple of rules, when they forget you and throw random rules, sometimes they are good or OP. Sometimes they are terrrible. It's a crapshoot.

 Kriswall wrote:
My Necrons haven't had a new, non-FW unit added to the army for over 6 years now (Obelisk came out in July 2013). Yes, we had two resin models redone in plastic, but that doesn't change the army list at all.

At least Necrons were allowed to keep the units they had.

Every Dark Eldar codex seems to contain even fewer units than the previous ones.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
My Necrons haven't had a new, non-FW unit added to the army for over 6 years now (Obelisk came out in July 2013). Yes, we had two resin models redone in plastic, but that doesn't change the army list at all.

At least Necrons were allowed to keep the units they had.

Every Dark Eldar codex seems to contain even fewer units than the previous ones.

The lack of Pariahs says otherwise.
I miss those guys. Lychguard just aren't the same.

Hellebore wrote:
People understand that GW can easily create new units for everyone right? That space marines aren't just magically capable of getting tones of new units and miniatures?

Up until a few years ago, marines had less units. 20 years ago their army was tiny.

I'm pretty tired of non marines being told to stay in their 3rd class Lane. They are still sold as equal army choices for 40k.

This.

My main complaint with 40k (and GW in general) has always been the same, GW focuses on some factions way, waaaay more than others, both in terms of codex/rule releases and model releases. This leaves me, as a player of factions relatively unloved by GW, pretty bored and eventually I leave the hobby for a few years until my faction gets an update or I happen to reignite my interest.

I collected Eldar prior to Orks when I was in secondary school. I'm now 33. Some of the models I have, that are metal and from the 90s, are the same that are sold now. Isn't that insane? Doesn't that seem incredible when compared to the unrelenting number of SM releases?

The good will that GW earned at the start of 8th is starting to wax and wane. I am starting to lose interest again as they keep releasing SM/Chaos/Imperial models and rules. Since the GSC codex release there's been nothing for any Xeno faction right? So since then we've had a massive CSM release, a massive Chaos Daemon release, 2 massive SM releases, an Ad Mech release, Chaos Knights and we're still due the mega Sisters update (that is deserved, no doubt, but still Imperium). What have I got, as an Ork player, or even as a Xeno player, to look forward to exactly? Maybe my buggies will become a little competitive in CA? I'm still using Boyz that are old enough to drink (I know many Ork players like the models but I can't stand them anymore because of dat booty), I lost more options from my codex than I gained and some of my non-named faction HQs are still metal. I'm certain there are more Primaris Lts than there are plastic HQs for my faction. There are likely more Primaris Lts than there are HQs full stop. Ironically the thing that stops me collecting SM is the unrelenting release schedule - I don't want to add to the problem.

I reckon it would make GW a ton of money and would get good will from many players if other factions were treated to splat books and possibly codex updates, as SM have received. Why can't I have a "Speed Freeks/Evil Sunz" splat book? What about "Ulthwe" or "Ghost Warriors/Iyanden" books for Eldar? Why don't DE have "Kabals", "Covens" and "Cults" splat books?

Enough is enough GW, spread the love or risk losing players.

Since the GSC codex release there's been nothing for any Xeno faction right? So since then we've had a massive CSM release, a massive Chaos Daemon release, 2 massive SM releases, an Ad Mech release, Chaos Knights and we're still due the mega Sisters update (that is deserved, no doubt, but still Imperium

2 massive space marine releases...

are you seriously trying to argue a single tank was a massive space marine release?! really!?

that's like pointing to the new plasic eldar spirit seerer that came out around the same time and saying "ELDAR GOT A MASSIVE RELEASE"

or are you somehow trying to argue shadowspear was the other "massive release" which is out and out stupid (by that argument chaos got two massive releases too!)

Why can't I have a "Speed Freeks/Evil Sunz" splat book? What about "Ulthwe" or "Ghost Warriors/Iyanden" books for Eldar? Why don't DE have "Kabals", "Covens" and "Cults" splat books?

two reasons. 1: those codices aren't so full of stuff they ahd to trim all the characters just to make the main codex now unweildy (I agrentee you the supplement idea came from a "codex is too big" discussion)
2: Money. there's big intreast in the various first founding Space Marine chapters. more so then just about any other faction (most people can name all 18 first founding chapters. how many people can name all the listed eldar craftworlds?) the reasons for this are pretty varied truth be told. part of it is yes the advertising focus of space marines. but you also have other elements, Rermember the black templars lost their codex. I suspect it's no condicance that the least popular SM codex was for a 2nd founding chapter. the Horus Heresy has ensured that there's a lot of love for all first founders. this intreast etc has fueled GW giving people more for it. they're a busniess after all. they'll sell what we wanna buy.

BrianDavion wrote:
2 massive space marine releases...
or are you somehow trying to argue shadowspear was the other "massive release" which is out and out stupid (by that argument chaos got two massive releases too!)

How was Shadowspear anything but a massive release? I said Chaos got 2 massive releases. CSM had one, Daemons the other, arguably Renegade Knights the third.

BrianDavion wrote:
two reasons. 1: those codices aren't so full of stuff they ahd to trim all the characters just to make the main codex now unweildy (I agrentee you the supplement idea came from a "codex is too big" discussion)
2: Money. there's big intreast in the various first founding Space Marine chapters. more so then just about any other faction (most people can name all 18 first founding chapters. how many people can name all the listed eldar craftworlds?) the reasons for this are pretty varied truth be told. part of it is yes the advertising focus of space marines. but you also have other elements, Rermember the black templars lost their codex. I suspect it's no condicance that the least popular SM codex was for a 2nd founding chapter. the Horus Heresy has ensured that there's a lot of love for all first founders. this intreast etc has fueled GW giving people more for it. they're a busniess after all. they'll sell what we wanna buy.

I think your point is based on incorrect assumptions. You think there's more Salamanders players than Goffs? Source please. There's no doubt splat books for other factions would sell. It's why people are crying out for them. I can't name all the founding chapters but I can easily name all of the Craftworlds, I doubt I'm alone in this.

Can we end the meme that everyone in 40k wants to play and has a Marine army? 30k is nowhere near as popular as 40k, why do you think that is? It is also a self fulfilling prophecy - since GW support SM more than any other faction by a mile people inevitably end up with Space Marine models, whether intentionally or not. I have friends for example that have been unable to shift the SM part of a starter set, so have ended up with an SM force. I have friends that have a Space Marine army because they became sick and tired of waiting for an update for their primary faction and the alternative was leaving the hobby.

 Ishagu wrote:
I personally think it would be great, but I doubt other factions have the popularity to pull it off.

It works with Marines because the range and variety is also massive. It *could* work with Guard and Orks.

It works with Marines, and could work with Guard, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines because they have the depth for it. CSM get more hampered than most doing this though, and probably need a Black Legion Rule to be able to mix and match more than the Salamanders and Iron Hands do.

The real problem isn't the rules. Its the fluff. How many pages on the history, motivations, and uniqueness of Hive Fleet Gorgon do you think there are? How many different ways can you write a story about how the Nids like to eat stuff? It's one thing to borrow stories from our own history to flesh out Guard and Space Marines as various historical cultures - or stereotypes of those cultures - in a sci-fi setting. White Scars are Mongols, Ultramarines are Romans, The sons of Dorn pull a lot from the Crusades and Renaissance - scholar warriors who study engineering, sapping etc see: Sigismund the Holy Roman Emperor. There are similar sometimes even more obvious parallels for the Guard regiments. I would assume there are also some for the Orks. Necrons are fairly obviously Egyptian, especially now that we've gotten rid of Fantasy Tomb Kings, but it's going to be difficult to expect the player base to know enough to differentiate between Dynasties. Tau Septs being Cold War Soviet governments like Cuba, China, and the USSR has a better shot than that. Some of these upper level factions just don't have the variety to support multiple codex supplements.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

There are fluff wise and rules wise some very signifigant hurdles here.

Primaris was developed by Cawl and for the origional legions. Grey knights geneseed is not from one of the origional legions so theoredically thier codex may never see primaris.

rules wise they don't share very many rules with the normal space marines, thier equipment is all completely different. it woudl be liek saying here this is codex orks but we replaced every weaopn option with options from the demon codex and all the units have completely different names and profiles... now lets put em in one book. thier wargear and profiels are so different it would be basically a special entry for every single unit. Even the units that share a kit with normal marines (land raiders, storm ravens/talons, a few hq generic models, and drednaughts) all have special wargear that would be different enough to kind of seem pointless to put in a normal shared space marine book.

note I am all for consolidating space marines into one main book with seperate chapter books for fluff but I think grey knights shoudl still be seperate unless GW really wans to rework them and somehow Cawl figures out greyknights geneseed.

Well, my assumption is that a GK supplement would go something like the following.

(Insert Grey Knight Faction Lore)

Grey Knight Faction Bonus: All GK Infantry Units gain the Psyker Keyword and may cast 1 Power per Psyker Phase. They know Smite and 1 GK Psyker Power of choice.

(Insert Psyker Power Table here, including special rules about multi-Smite)

(Insert section with Grey Knight specific units)

Exclude the following Units from being allowed to have the Grey Knight Keyword:

(Insert list of various units, such as Primaris Marines)

Add the following Wargear Options to any unit with the Grey Knight Keyword:

(Insert wargear table which includes such things as Force Hammers and Sanctified Bolters)

Remove the following Wargear Options to any unit with the Grey Knight Keyword:

(Insert list of wargear that Grey Knights cannot take, though I honestly can't think of any).

(Grey Knight Stratagems go here.)

Supplement complete, I guess. Feels like this would be more than sufficient for the GKs. Don't get me wrong, I love them to death. I got into 40k by reading the Grey Knight Omnibus. But I feel like they don't need an entire Codex when a supplement would more than suffice.

because Shadowspear was a battle pack of monobuild kits of stuff that was just released, it was essentially a tease to this release. it wasn't really it's own release. I notice you conveniantly don't include shadowspear as a seperate CSM release, so why the intelelctual dishonesty where loyalist marines are concerned. Also you've just proven yourself wrong on chaos by noting there where three releases (and yes codex CHAOS Knights was very much a chaos release)

I think your point is based on incorrect assumptions. You think there's more Salamanders players than Goffs? Source please. There's no doubt splat books for other factions would sell. It's why people are crying out for them. I can't name all the founding chapters but I can easily name all of the Craftworlds, I doubt I'm alone in this.

the plural of ancidote is not data. Marines make up a large percentage of GW;s 40k sales, GW's actions clearly prove this.

Can we end the meme that everyone in 40k wants to play and has a Marine army? 30k is nowhere near as popular as 40k, why do you think that is?

expensive resin minis ordered exclusivly online with high shipping costs? Besides the game system may not have as large a player base but the readership base is proably pretty high. HH novels have been NYT bestsellers after all. and the HH stuff was popular eneugh for GW to make some of the stuff for it in plastic.

Look I'm not saying "Marines should be the only ones getting the books" I'm saying "it might not happen because of economic reasons"

You can make the full sub-faction codex experience yourself by just photocopying one unit onto a separate page and leaving a 20 pound tip at the copier.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You can make the full sub-faction codex experience yourself by just photocopying one unit onto a separate page and leaving a 20 pound tip at the copier.

Don't be ridiculous.

That's how you make the Chaos codex. Sub-faction supplements involve some minimal effort.

Don't forget, to have a supplement they also need to create new models to go along with it.

Guard are ripe for it with so many regiments not represented in plastic plus a character to go with it.

Eldar are another faction that could go with it, leading with Biel Tan and Aspects, Alaitoc with Rangers and character. Others not to much unfortunately. Iyanden is my army but what new plastic do we need? They'd have to create something new like a wraithlord character, and update Yriel.

Don't know much about Orks, but not sure how popular separate factions are to warrant books.

Tau, Necrons Drukhari and nids definitely don't need it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Now, if you want to argue that Kroot should get a supplement...ehhhhhhhhh. They'd need some more units before that can really happen.

Not really, they just need them put in to plastic. The Kroot Merc Codex had more units than the Harlequin Codex at its launch. Two sets of units were in metal forever and never made plastic (the Ox and the Hound), another set in FW resin which would work great in plastic (and one of which was in Dawn of War, both are quite gnarly), and then there were the Vulturekin who just never were made in to models.

And all that's before any technicals that are just begging to be made (admittedly, GSC and Orks tend to have those, too).

The "Kroot Merc Codex" was literally just "Convert this".

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "Kroot Merc Codex" was literally just "Convert this".

Maybe at first, but Vulture Kindred are the only ones who would have required conversions. Shapers having odd weaponry I don't consider a conversion any more than adding a Devastator Lascannon to a Tactical Marine. The totems may have required them, depending on your group, and the same could be said of the Adaptations. Well, maybe the Punji Traps would have been conversions, too.

But other than that, we have the Gnarlocs from Forgeworld along with the Ox and Hound made in to plastic, and you have a good portion of the Kroot Merc list ready to go. Add in Vulturekins, and if you're feeling really desirable, sprues for Stalkers and Hunters/Headhunters, and there's more there than some of the current codices. The units have existed, it's only the sprues that need to be caught up. And it's not like they would be adding unit types that weren't in the game at 5th Edition unlike the Flyers and the Super-Heavies.

So, yeah, there is definitely a lot of capability in a Kroot codex that exists that provide a lot interesting options than some codices had at the end of 7th Edition, much less today.

I think there is little hope for Grey Knights in the future. For them to revised/updated models/material, they would have to gain access to Primerised model/troops, and GW has been adamant so far about not giving them access to Primarised marines. Likewise, they’ve been losing significant options since 5E. I really feel like GW is trying their best to ignore they exist as a playable faction, and just wants them to sink back into being only mentioned in the lore and not be represented on the tabletop.

Depends on whether that faction needs it. Space Marines certainly needed some love because the only things that were strong were BA Smash Captains mixed in the usual Loyal 32/ Knights soup and Guilliman. Fortunately GW had the foresight to drop the nerfhammer on Bobby while buffing up everything else. For other candidates, Necrons and GK could certainly use some steroids but factions like CSM and T'au are already in a good spot.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "Kroot Merc Codex" was literally just "Convert this".

If only this was a hobby that encouraged conversions and kitbashing. /s
I don't see the problem with that.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "Kroot Merc Codex" was literally just "Convert this".

If only this was a hobby that encouraged conversions and kitbashing. /s
I don't see the problem with that.

It isn't anymore.
Atleast not after chapterhouse.
And certainly not if you go to offical gw stores