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I meant rules in general. Since 5th ed.

Turn 1 charges arent that great, certainly not good with units in a pod.

Not much for the custodes to witness just seeing gulliman standing there for a bit.

The emperor communicated with him psychically, there was no actual speaking.

robbienw wrote:
Not much for the custodes to witness just seeing gulliman standing there for a bit.

The emperor communicated with him psychically, there was no actual speaking.

I always trust people who hear voices in their head telling them to do things!

Emperor needs a text to speech device.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

He was standing in front of the Golden Throne when he did.

What would be more Chaos than to deceive a Primarch at the feet of his father?

^There's a point and a half.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

He was standing in front of the Golden Throne when he did.

What would be more Chaos than to deceive a Primarch at the feet of his father?

Except Chaos has trouble getting close to the Emperor, much less on Terra proper.

Watchers of the Throne only had Chaos reach Terra because the Astronomicon was shut down for a time. Guilliman met the Emperor when it was back up and running though.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.

and now we've jumped from "arguments people might ICly have against Gulliman" to "fan conspiracy theories that no one would voice in the IoM without being INSTANTLY blammed for heresy"

Martel732 wrote:
Emperor needs a text to speech device.

Yeah, but my guess would be the Emperor would just complain about how stupid the Imperium has become to the Captain General of the Custodes, disband the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, send the Ultramarines to kidnap Magnus without use of their Geller Field, steal Magus' soul from Tzeentch, send the Ultramarines to recover all of Vulcan's artifacts and stealthy drop them off to the Salamanders followed by sending the Ultramarines to Commorragho to get into a dance competition with the Dark Eldar something like that. Just a wild guess though. Oh, he might also start of podcast talking about Black Library books too.

My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

GW has a barrier in presenting these sentiments too overtly in their fiction. They would be an anti-sales technique for any fan they resonate with and GW is trying to sell the new Primaris stuff. So I don't think we'll see any overt opposition to the adoption of Primaris beyond a grumbling flesh tearer until GW has kits to release for the primaris rejecting people. Whether that's part of some civil war or a new quasi-renegade/traditionalist faction launch, I don't know.

 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

You mean the book on tactics 101 everyone treats as a religious text because raisins?

Sure that proves Heresy Leandros.

That is true, and if we're really getting into it. Gman wrote the codex, yet his Primaris squads aren't set up like a tactical squad following his own take all comers approach. Hmmmm

I smell a rat, in a GMAN skinsuit.

It's certainly understandable in the dogma-drenched 41st millenium that a space marine chapter might adhere to the codex religiously and reject the primaris as a result.

I also imagine some of the planetary governors Guilliman deposed from the greater Ultramar region were part of the Aquarion group uncovered in the Agent of the Throne audio series. They would certainly do what they could to undermine him if he was such a direct threat to their power. And they are certainly well connected enough to know Xenos were on Macragge and possibly involved in his return.

I don't know why anyone living in a world with sayings such as " An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and walls unguarded. " would ever believe someone, even a supposed primarch of the UM glory boys would lie or be dishonest.

I mean, there aren't whole chapters based on concealing thousands of years long stains to their honor who wouldn't trust these GMAN clones.

As well, surely no one would bat an eye when GMAN directly claims to have " perfected " the emperors own work with Big Cawl in charge, I mean no one viewed the Emperor as a god or anything.

I think deception and seeking conspiracy and lies is perfectly in character for most all of 40k.

During the time that the writing, miniature creation and development of the return of primarchs and the rolling out of Primaris was being done, 40k was in a major decline. Forgeworld/30k was the only division of GW that was growing year over year.

That's why 30k has been injected into 40k.

Then they changed their business practicies and inaccessable rules and now GW is doing great financially and 40k is selling awesome. But the end result is we are stuck with the injection of 30k ideas and characters into 40k even though there never really was anything wrong with 40k and it didn't really need to be End Timesed/Gathering Stormed with Primaris stormcast analogues introduced.

The 2nd wave of both the stormcast and primaris is the vanguard. Is the Extremis chamber next? Extremis Primaris?

That said, I do actually like both the stormcast and primaris marines as well as 30k, so I'm cool with it, but it wasn't necessary to turn 40k around. The issue was GW's business practices under Kirby, their former CEO.

 frozenwastes wrote:
During the time that the writing, miniature creation and development of the return of primarchs and the rolling out of Primaris was being done, 40k was in a major decline. Forgeworld/30k was the only division of GW that was growing year over year.

That's why 30k has been injected into 40k.

Then they changed their business practicies and inaccessable rules and now GW is doing great financially and 40k is selling awesome. But the end result is we are stuck with the injection of 30k ideas and characters into 40k even though there never really was anything wrong with 40k and it didn't really need to be End Timesed with Primaris stormcast analogues introduced.

The 2nd wave of both the stormcast and primaris is the vanguard. Is the Extremis chamber next? Extremis Primaris?

That said, I do actually like both the stormcast and primaris marines as well as 30k, so I'm cool with it, but it wasn't necessary to turn 40k around. The issue was GW's business practices under Kirby, their former CEO.

I can totally believe that.

 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

GW has a barrier in presenting these sentiments too overtly in their fiction. They would be an anti-sales technique for any fan they resonate with and GW is trying to sell the new Primaris stuff. So I don't think we'll see any overt opposition to the adoption of Primaris beyond a grumbling flesh tearer until GW has kits to release for the primaris rejecting people. Whether that's part of some civil war or a new quasi-renegade/traditionalist faction launch, I don't know.

that and Primaris isn't exactly being presented in a "hi, we have a gift for you, it's really neat you should accept it" it's being presented in a "This is a gift directly from the Emperor, only a traitor would refuse a direct gift from the emperor himself"

the July White Dwarf features a story where the Custodes gift the Blood Ravens the Primaris, the tone makes it VERY clear that this isn't an option.Primaris are a gift delivered with a gun to the head of the recipiant. if a Chatper rejected Primaris Marines, it seems pretty clear to me the fething CUSTODES would exterminate the chapter. (proably gleefully, they're not partiuclar fans of Astartes)

^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.

It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.

BrianDavion wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

GW has a barrier in presenting these sentiments too overtly in their fiction. They would be an anti-sales technique for any fan they resonate with and GW is trying to sell the new Primaris stuff. So I don't think we'll see any overt opposition to the adoption of Primaris beyond a grumbling flesh tearer until GW has kits to release for the primaris rejecting people. Whether that's part of some civil war or a new quasi-renegade/traditionalist faction launch, I don't know.

that and Primaris isn't exactly being presented in a "hi, we have a gift for you, it's really neat you should accept it" it's being presented in a "This is a gift directly from the Emperor, only a traitor would refuse a direct gift from the emperor himself"

the July White Dwarf features a story where the Custodes gift the Blood Ravens the Primaris, the tone makes it VERY clear that this isn't an option.Primaris are a gift delivered with a gun to the head of the recipiant. if a Chatper rejected Primaris Marines, it seems pretty clear to me the fething CUSTODES would exterminate the chapter. (proably gleefully, they're not partiuclar fans of Astartes)

Could be a long haul strategy, soviel primaris down all throats, then start the in universe civil war due to marines rejecting them, sell primaris renegades too Chaos aswell, there done, milked market marines and Expanded market Chaos Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.

It's as if GW has neither an idea about scale or supply lines.
But that is nothing new

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.

codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.

The Blood ravens where also given pure samples of their geneseed from Mars which would potentially answer many of their herritage questions. however I'm not sure how nesscary this is to the creation of PRIMARIS Marines, it strikes me as possiable that it was simply a sweatener to make the BRs more inclined to accept so it's possiable in addition to the threat of extermination for rejecting, Chapters being offered Primaris are, whenever possiable offered something in addition that they really want. thus Gulliman and the Custodes are adopting a Carrot and Stick approuch to Primaris.

Paint up your Inquisitor or Chapter Master as Napoleon and refer to your Space Marines as 'The Old Guard'

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.

I wonder why...

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.

codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

I'll say my entire Chapter is involved in fleet operations against the Tyranids, and just "has't found the time". . .

Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine. Only my poor Deathwatch got bullied, they're too small in number.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine. Only my poor Deathwatch got bullied, they're too small in number.

This works perfectly fine. If you don't want primaris....don't take them.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine.

it only took making your chapter a blatent mary sue to do so


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.

codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

thats proably the best way to do so. it's a big galaxy and it's easy to miss a space marine chapter. the lore is filled with examples of this.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.

 Crimson wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."

I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.

... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary