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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






BrianDavion wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think that does look pretty cool though. Well, except for the camera thing on his backpack, that looks weird.

The execution of the concept is very good.
But that's not an Imperium of Mankind model. That's a Tau Gue'vesa.
The concept is flawed.


I'm sorry but I don't see how this ties into Tau at all. it's not their aestetic remotely.


Tau design has a strong emphasis on sleek looking tech.

"Hi tech" Imperial stuff tends to look anachronistic, crude or even baroque-geigeresque. Emphasis on slick engineering is a Tau domain.

And by emphasis, I mean proportionally. A sleek visor on one scout head isnt an emphasis. The ugly "Signum box" is certainly not sleek, and comes in a package including 4 servo skulls, the epitome of Imperial technological and cultural idiosyncrasies.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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On the Internet

robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.

I don't see that. Are we complaining about the flared knees causing a sttong divide between upper and lower leg?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think that does look pretty cool though. Well, except for the camera thing on his backpack, that looks weird.

The execution of the concept is very good.
But that's not an Imperium of Mankind model. That's a Tau Gue'vesa.
The concept is flawed.


I'm sorry but I don't see how this ties into Tau at all. it's not their aestetic remotely.


Tau design has a strong emphasis on sleek looking tech.

"Hi tech" Imperial stuff tends to look anachronistic, crude or even baroque-geigeresque. Emphasis on slick engineering is a Tau domain.

And by emphasis, I mean proportionally. A sleek visor on one scout head isnt an emphasis. The ugly "Signum box" is certainly not sleek, and comes in a package including 4 servo skulls, the epitome of Imperial technological and cultural idiosyncrasies.

I disagree. Tau engineer to suit the solution, thr Imperium engineers to brute force one.

Look at the differences in how grav tech works as an example. The Repulsor is basically punching the ground to stay up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 22:27:40


 
   
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Yes, the gap between upper calf and the heel makes it look like they are wearing capri shorts. Capri shorts and trainers.

Capri shorts are long shorts that go just past the knee, sometimes referred to as 3/4 length trousers.

I think they were trying to make it look like they are wearing english civil war style bucket boots, but it didn't quite work out.

Cannot unsee it
[Thumb - gallery_6494_11942_28273.jpg]

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 22:45:59


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






@ClockworkZion: The model presented for this section of the thread was a techy looking phobos marine. If were going to critique it, stay on point.

Repulsors have different issues, imo.

Also, power suits with tapering legs is a tau thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 22:35:03


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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On the Internet

robbienw wrote:
Yes, the gap between upper calf and the heel makes it look like they are wearing capri shorts. Capri shorts and trainers.

Capri shorts are long shorts that go just past the knee, sometimes referred to as 3/4 length trousers.

I think they were trying to make it look like they are wearing english civil war style bucket boots, but it didn't quite work out.

Cannot unsee it

The knees ruin the idea that they're short pants since the leg stops above the knee, and then restarts with the boot.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe for you it does.

Still looks like long shorts to me.
   
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On the Internet

 Insectum7 wrote:
@ClockworkZion: The model presented for this section of the thread was a techy looking phobos marine. If were going to critique it, stay on point.

Repulsors have different issues, imo.

Also, power suits with tapering legs is a tau thing.

I hadn't heardbthis complaint so I was confused what we were talking about.

And Tau don't do power suits like Astartes do. Even their stealth suits are more like form fitting armour plates. Any heavier suits don't have the pilots legs inside of the legs of the armour.

Considering Jes' historical influences, the bucket boot makes sense as a influencer. I assumed it was some kind of combat boot, but the bucket boot makes more sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
robbienw wrote:
Maybe for you it does.

Still looks like long shorts to me.

It does for me because I've looked at Phobos armour from the back and seen the soft armour knee joint that cleanly defines the boot from the upper leg. The kneepad is seperste from that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 22:57:07


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.


man you'd think phobos armor was suddenly replacing the entire primaris range

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

BrianDavion wrote:
robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.


man you'd think phobos armor was suddenly replacing the entire primaris range

Nah. It's clearly replacing scouts and expanding the role scouts play in the army, but it's only so prominent right now because they're the new release.

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.


man you'd think phobos armor was suddenly replacing the entire primaris range

Nah. It's clearly replacing scouts and expanding the role scouts play in the army, but it's only so prominent right now because they're the new release.

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


I agree. I mean in the last week in addition to the Primaris Hate train hijacking all the threads trying to discuss the new stuff, we've also got something like 4 or 5 sepooerate "I DON'T LIKE PRIAMRIS MARINES AND YOU SHOULDN'T EAITHER" threads. it's beyond rediculas,

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
@ClockworkZion: The model presented for this section of the thread was a techy looking phobos marine. If were going to critique it, stay on point.

Repulsors have different issues, imo.

Also, power suits with tapering legs is a tau thing.

I hadn't heardbthis complaint so I was confused what we were talking about.

And Tau don't do power suits like Astartes do. Even their stealth suits are more like form fitting armour plates. Any heavier suits don't have the pilots legs inside of the legs of the armour.

Considering Jes' historical influences, the bucket boot makes sense as a influencer. I assumed it was some kind of combat boot, but the bucket boot makes more sense.

Fair enough @ specific subject of critique. Maybe it was my bad, but there was a picture of a Phobos guy just upthread.

It doesn't really matter whether the power suit is "in-leg" or not, it's the overall aesthetic impression that's being reacted to.

As for Historical influences, maybe. I'll take another look at it with this is mind. That said, the intent of an influence can get lost in execution. Intent is important but the final product is where the rubber hits the road, obviously.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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On the Internet

It'a true that a lot of things can be list in translation, especially when translation is through the lens of 40k.

Tau vary from pants with armour to something akin to carapace over the legs to a clearly mechanical leg that has no organic leg inside. I don't agree the look is the same because Astartes have always leaned into western warfare and kit designs while the big influencers for Tau have been anime and Mech designs.

Basically the outputs of the two are widly different (to me at least) because the stuff that feeds into that are different. They both aim for a form fitting look, but Tau has a sleeker look with smaller (or no) gaps while Astartes feel like it leans into a soldier look that is built for function over form.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.


man you'd think phobos armor was suddenly replacing the entire primaris range

Nah. It's clearly replacing scouts and expanding the role scouts play in the army, but it's only so prominent right now because they're the new release.

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


Yes lets label valid criticism and discussion of models as ‘hate’ and ‘toxic’ because people have an opinion I disagree with. Yes that’s always a good idea...

I see a lot of repetitive criticism of classic marines compared to Primaris about, but you don’t see me complaining about that. If you are willing to point out what you see as flaws in something, don’t be surprised that people start pointing out flaws in things you like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 23:24:55


 
   
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.


man you'd think phobos armor was suddenly replacing the entire primaris range

Nah. It's clearly replacing scouts and expanding the role scouts play in the army, but it's only so prominent right now because they're the new release.

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


Yes lets label valid criticism and discussion of models as ‘hate’ and ‘toxic’ because people have an opinion I disagree with. Yes that’s always a good idea...

I see a lot of repetitive criticism of classic marines compared to Primaris about, but you don’t see me complaining about that. If you are willing to point out what you see as flaws in something, don’t be surprised that people start pointing out flaws in things you like.


how many threads have you seen on dakka dakka in the last 6 MONTHS devoted to "old marines suck primaris look better"? maybe 1 or 2. we've gotten a half dozen "PRIMARIS LOOK BAD" salt threads in the past week

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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On the Internet

robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
robbienw wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Messed up legs"? Now you have my attention since I haven't heard this complaint. What's wrong with the legs exactly?


The Capri shorts look is whats wrong with the legs.


man you'd think phobos armor was suddenly replacing the entire primaris range

Nah. It's clearly replacing scouts and expanding the role scouts play in the army, but it's only so prominent right now because they're the new release.

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


Yes lets label valid criticism and discussion of models as ‘hate’ and ‘toxic’ because people have an opinion I disagree with. Yes that’s always a good idea...

I see a lot of repetitive criticism of classic marines compared to Primaris about, but you don’t see me complaining about that. If you are willing to point out what you see as flaws in something, don’t be surprised that people start pointing out flaws in things you like.

There is a difference between saying you don't like something and the bashing I've witnessed since they announced this release.

It's been two frikkin' years since they announced Primaris as a thing. It's time to stop trying to complain them away and accept them as a part of the setting. You can like them or them but this constant five threads bashing on Primaris is beyond played out at this point.

No one wants to deal with people who complain about things all the time, and they're less.likely to believe that you're right when you spend all your time bashing something.
   
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Insectum7 wrote:You are "latching" in error. I would put it as "The essence of the Tactical Squad is the capacity to effectively engage a variety of targets, with a variety of methods, without support." Each unit can operate independently, and can be equipped appropriately.
But I can also take them without a special weapon. 30k "Tactical" Marines only have bolters too. And as per my original question, I asked if they were still MARINES, not just Tacticals.

Are they not Space Marines? Is a Space Marine only a Space Marine if they have a friend with a special weapon?
I'd go so far as to call it a pervasive doctrinal philosophy among Marine units, in fact.
I disagree. If Astartes doctrine was all about every unit being tactically flexible, then we wouldn't have a variety of units.
The Tactical Squad IS designed to be flexible, but they're not the benchmark of the entire Astartes doctrine, nor what it means to be a Space Marine. Otherwise, what were the Legions made up of?

The options available to add resolution to your Primaris Kill team is functionally a non-point, different bolters changes little regarding their limited strategic scope.
So adding a flamer is amazing tactical versatility alongside similar strength bolters, but adding snipers and high ROF automatic weapons is "non-point" "limited strategic scope"?

Again, the Tactical Squad is only flexible around the fact they have a guy lugging around a single weapon, and three guys with bolters doing nothing unique. The Primaris team has every member contributing something new - or as I see it, flexibility.
I like how you breeze past the Sergeant in the squad and his loadout potential, too. If you're not trying to be disingenuous, why are you cherry-picking?

Chainsword (or two)
Power Sword
Power Axe
Power Maul
Power Fist
Thunder Hammer
Lightning Claw (or two)
Can't Primaris Sergeants have all of these? The power weapons are, at the end of the day, functionally the same, and the only thing on that list they can't take are lightning claws. Is that a deal breaker?

Plasma Pistol
Grav Pistol
Combi Weapon
Storm Bolter

Grav Gun
Plasma Gun
Melta Gun
Flamer

Heavy Bolter
Missile Launcher
Multimelta
Lascannon
Plasma Cannon
Grav Cannon
All fair points - but it's only on ONE guy. They guy goes down, and now you've got three guys with identical weapons. Such flexibility, huh?

Scouts have more meaningful options than Intercessors.
Scouts are FAR more tactically varied than Tacticals AND Intercessors, yes! So are they the true exemplars of what Space Marines are then?


Sgt. Smudge, if you're going to suggest that a Lascannon isn't a good AT weapon in prior arguments above, don't then turn around and claim that a Grenade Launcher firing Krak is at all sufficient for the task.
I'm saying that in game, both are inadequate as single unit AT weapons. In lore, both are sufficient, although the lascannons is superior.
You were arguing from a game perspective, of prior editions, of course, but right now, lascannons aren't what they used to be.

I said 90ish% because the 10th company size is variable, and it's notably rare for a Chapter to be able to field it's entire 1st company in Terminator Armor. Then you add in the characters and other various super numaries that potentially include Command Squads.

As for the rest, you either misunderstood the argument, or are simply trying to avoid it. The point is that all the personal armor is virtually identical/interchangeable. Bikes are essentially just "guy in Mk5-8 riding a bike", Assault marine is "guy in Mk5-8 with a Jump Pack and CC weapons" for example. All major roles are filled by marines in Mk5-8.
But they're still making changes to their core armour base - which is exactly what the Primaris are doing. You can't praise the old marines for being based on the same base model and adapting around it, and then criticise the Primaris for doing the same.
Phobos, Tacticus, and Gravis are all based on the same core armour set, as per Jes Goodwin.

Centurions are Primaris before Primaris.
"Oldmarines are all the same basic model! Except these ones. And these ones. And these ones."

I'm saying they're poor impressions of Space Marines having been given the characteristics of Tau and Eldar. Flying Battlesuits with no Chainswords
Terminators don't have chainswords. Are they Tau? Sanguinary Guard? Legion Destroyers?
squads all armed with the same weapon.
But Legion Space Marines had that too. Are they not Space Marines?
Some of them even have those little anime-fins.
Anime-fins? You mean the grav-chutes? Should I criticise the large jump jets on Assault Marines are being anime-inspired too?

Andykp wrote:
Comparing primaris to the last version of the tactical squad is no different from comparing lastest tactical marines to RTB01 marines. Clearly all marines. To say otherwise is just being deliberately awkward.

RTB01 Tacticals: 10 Marines. 1 Sergeant with upgrade choices. 1 Special weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon.
8th Ed Tactical Squad: 10 Marines. 1 Sergeant with upgrade choices. 1 Special weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon.
And the majority of the options is the same. Transports are the same. You can field the same Tac Squad 30(?) years later. There are a few options (Like a 3% chance of having a Lasgun, or a 10% chance of having a D-Cannon) that were quickly phased out in those days, but the squad is otherwise virtually identical.
Okay - but are Legion Tactical Squads Space Marines?

I'm not arguing "are Intercessors Tactical Squads?" I'm arguing "are Intercessors Space Marines?". According to you, all Space Marines are Tactical Marines, and Tactical Marines are only Tacticals if they still have a guy with special weapons.

It's worthwhile to acknowledge this. . . however. . . it's important to also acknowledge that the line stabilized shortly afterwards, and has remained stable for 20+ years since. Additionally, "Brand new" Mk 7 Marines could mix squads with Mk6, carry the same weapons, ride the same transports. The difference was purely aesthetic and no other mechanics or "pressures" were involved.
And again, what about 30k?

The only thing I can see clearly here is that we can't even agree what a Space Marine is.

robbienw wrote:Its entirely possible to like one thing aesthetically, and not like something similar but with notable changes.

The suggestion you can't is absurd.
No-one'se saying you can't. However, the issue is with the idea of "notable changes" - if there's people who genuinely can see very little difference, they're not really notable, are they?

I love classic marines and their aethesetic (for the most part).

I don't like the primaris aethsetic.
Absolutely reasonable.
The changes from the preceding classic marine aethesetic **are what makes me not like it**. Stuff like the over abundance of extra platting, huge boots, buckets over helmets, abundance of tacticool features, the size increase etc.
As I said above, there are so few changes to the core Astartes aesthetic, it's difficult to find a lot of these differences.
Extra plating - where? The gorget or leg armour? Deathwatch have this too. But perhaps you also don't like their armour?
Their feet aren't much larger than normal Marines - except Gravis, but they're not really "normal Primaris", like how Terminators aren't normal Marines.
Only the Inceptors have bucket helms, and they're totally optional.
I don't see any additional "tacticool features" that aren't also present on normal marines (including 30k, because they're still Marines).
The size increase I'll agree with, and it's why I haven't done any Primaris Ultramarines in 2nd Company colours, because they would stand out too much against them. It's not that they don't have the Space Marine aesthetic, they're just bigger. If I had a normal 5th edition Marine, scaled up to Primaris size, I still wouldn't take them, purely because of the size.

Therefore, while I understand not liking them because of their size, I wouldn't call it a change of aesthetic.

robbienw wrote:I see what you are saying, but i still think primaris are fundamentally different in the respect that they have an overall changed design paradigm compared to the current classic range, that is fairly consistent across the range.
Not really. The core design philosophy of the old Astartes is relatively unchanged - you still have the helmet with a central vent and faceplate, the oversized pauldrons with a trim, the same backpack style (vents on the back and on two over-shoulder orbs), the chest aquila and segmented torso plate, the kneepads, the undersuit visible under the joints, the codpiece - they're not too different.

The vehicles i quite like, in part because their design is changed less from classic vehicles, they look like they are part of the space marine vehicle family.
This is true. The vehicles are still very much more Space Marine aesthetic over anything else - aside from the floaty part, which isn't exactly unheard of in Astartes vehicles (Land Speeders).

Kaiyanwang wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think that does look pretty cool though. Well, except for the camera thing on his backpack, that looks weird.

The execution of the concept is very good.
But that's not an Imperium of Mankind model. That's a Tau Gue'vesa.
The concept is flawed.
It's a good thing that no other Space Marine unit has a backpack scanner device.
Oh, yeah, the Devastator Sergeant's Signum.

And how many Tau units have cyclops-esque visors? None?

To get this straight, he's wearing Space Marine looking power armour, carrying a Space Marine's bolter, with a Space Marine-style signum, and with a visor that's unfamiliar to any other faction.

How is that Tau, exactly?


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BrianDavion wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


I agree. I mean in the last week in addition to the Primaris Hate train hijacking all the threads trying to discuss the new stuff, we've also got something like 4 or 5 sepooerate "I DON'T LIKE PRIAMRIS MARINES AND YOU SHOULDN'T EAITHER" threads. it's beyond rediculas,

Ok, but for about two years now there's been a general sentiment that Primaris are the replacements for my army, and I should like them if I want to play marines. There's no denying that as a product, they have been pushed haaaard. That Primaris are the only option for Marines in the future is an opinion that has been the voiced sentiment of many on this forum.

We have some bizarre misinformation about the history/tone of the classics. Like that weird post upthread talking about aesthetic drift, when the core units look almost exactly the same after 20 years. There was just another thread not too long ago talking about "scale-creep" in the line, and that's shown to be totally overblown.

We also have a thread where the OP is actively calling for the removal of my army from the game.

Truth be told, I'm fine with you liking and purchasing Primaris. I will happily fight against them using my classics/true/legacy marines. But if a thread is going to start up about how the aesthetics are a turn-off, I'm going to be all over that, because it's really interesting to me, as design is part of my profession. I want to correct the misinformation. Plus the obvious "Space Marines" are something that I'm passionate about.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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robbienw wrote:Yes lets label valid criticism and discussion of models as ‘hate’ and ‘toxic’ because people have an opinion I disagree with. Yes that’s always a good idea...
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. Nor is there anything wrong with discussing and critiquing - but if you're going to discuss and critique you:
A - Don't need 6+ threads dedicated for it
B - Need to actually have facts to back up criticism if you want it to be the basis of the argument, such as claiming things along the lines of "Primaris Marines are a drastic departure from Traditional Space Marine Aesthetic TM ", and then ignoring both 30k Marines and/or not elaborating on exactly what it is about Primaris Marines *in general* that make them a drastic departure. The only ones I can see is that their guns are longer and they're taller. Neither of which I see is particularly important to "being a Space Marine".

I see a lot of repetitive criticism of classic marines compared to Primaris about, but you don’t see me complaining about that.
Whereabouts? I see 6+ threads criticising Primaris, but none on old Marines. If you have a link, I'd be interested to see what people are saying.
If you are willing to point out what you see as flaws in something, don’t be surprised that people start pointing out flaws in things you like.
At the same time, I'd expect people who point out flaws and try to back them up with what sound like factual claims (like my example above) to actually HAVE factual arguments that are well quantifiable.

As I've said - opinion is fine. Making up facts to support those opinions is not.


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Ok, but for about two years now there's been a general sentiment that Primaris are the replacements for my army, and I should like them if I want to play marines. There's no denying that as a product, they have been pushed haaaard. That Primaris are the only option for Marines in the future is an opinion that has been the voiced sentiment of many on this forum.


exceptg the vast majority of the "primaris are the future" claims I see comes from the critics. are primaris being pushed? the intercessor DOES seem to be taking the tac marines place as the cover art marine yes but other then that, I don't see it, unless you mean the advertising for codices etc. and thats just GW advertising new minis. they're not going to advertise the tac squad when they have a new release of other stuff.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


I agree. I mean in the last week in addition to the Primaris Hate train hijacking all the threads trying to discuss the new stuff, we've also got something like 4 or 5 sepooerate "I DON'T LIKE PRIAMRIS MARINES AND YOU SHOULDN'T EAITHER" threads. it's beyond rediculas,

Ok, but for about two years now there's been a general sentiment that Primaris are the replacements for my army, and I should like them if I want to play marines. There's no denying that as a product, they have been pushed haaaard.
Because they're a new product that many designers at GW are genuinely passionate about.

GSC and the new Chaos stuff were all pushed hard, but that's because they were new models, and clearly the designers were passionate over them. With Primaris essentially springing out of nowhere in 8th edition model-wise, of course they'll push them hard. They're a new sub-army, they're Space Marines, and they're clearly passionate about them.
That Primaris are the only option for Marines in the future is an opinion that has been the voiced sentiment of many on this forum.
There's also people on this forum who thought that GW would never bring back a Primarch. I'd rather not take the opinions of people on this forum as gospel as to what GW intend to do.

We have some bizarre misinformation about the history/tone of the classics. Like that weird post upthread talking about aesthetic drift, when the core units look almost exactly the same after 20 years.
Seriously? You're telling me that a Space Marine Veteran 20 years ago looks the same as one now?
We also have a thread where the OP is actively calling for the removal of my army from the game.
And there's many more about how "Primaris are the worst thing ever". So that's what, 1 against 5? 6?

But if a thread is going to start up about how the aesthetics are a turn-off, I'm going to be all over that, because it's really interesting to me, as design is part of my profession. I want to correct the misinformation.
By all means. But as I've said, saying things like "Primaris aren't true Space Marines because they don't have special weapons in their squads" is also misinforming - because that's exactly the same as Legion Astartes, who, like it or not, I'm sure most people will say are Space Marines.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Spoiler:
Insectum7 wrote:You are "latching" in error. I would put it as "The essence of the Tactical Squad is the capacity to effectively engage a variety of targets, with a variety of methods, without support." Each unit can operate independently, and can be equipped appropriately.
But I can also take them without a special weapon. 30k "Tactical" Marines only have bolters too. And as per my original question, I asked if they were still MARINES, not just Tacticals.

Are they not Space Marines? Is a Space Marine only a Space Marine if they have a friend with a special weapon?
I'd go so far as to call it a pervasive doctrinal philosophy among Marine units, in fact.
I disagree. If Astartes doctrine was all about every unit being tactically flexible, then we wouldn't have a variety of units.
The Tactical Squad IS designed to be flexible, but they're not the benchmark of the entire Astartes doctrine, nor what it means to be a Space Marine. Otherwise, what were the Legions made up of?

The options available to add resolution to your Primaris Kill team is functionally a non-point, different bolters changes little regarding their limited strategic scope.
So adding a flamer is amazing tactical versatility alongside similar strength bolters, but adding snipers and high ROF automatic weapons is "non-point" "limited strategic scope"?

Again, the Tactical Squad is only flexible around the fact they have a guy lugging around a single weapon, and three guys with bolters doing nothing unique. The Primaris team has every member contributing something new - or as I see it, flexibility.
I like how you breeze past the Sergeant in the squad and his loadout potential, too. If you're not trying to be disingenuous, why are you cherry-picking?

Chainsword (or two)
Power Sword
Power Axe
Power Maul
Power Fist
Thunder Hammer
Lightning Claw (or two)
Can't Primaris Sergeants have all of these? The power weapons are, at the end of the day, functionally the same, and the only thing on that list they can't take are lightning claws. Is that a deal breaker?

Plasma Pistol
Grav Pistol
Combi Weapon
Storm Bolter

Grav Gun
Plasma Gun
Melta Gun
Flamer

Heavy Bolter
Missile Launcher
Multimelta
Lascannon
Plasma Cannon
Grav Cannon
All fair points - but it's only on ONE guy. They guy goes down, and now you've got three guys with identical weapons. Such flexibility, huh?

Scouts have more meaningful options than Intercessors.
Scouts are FAR more tactically varied than Tacticals AND Intercessors, yes! So are they the true exemplars of what Space Marines are then?


Sgt. Smudge, if you're going to suggest that a Lascannon isn't a good AT weapon in prior arguments above, don't then turn around and claim that a Grenade Launcher firing Krak is at all sufficient for the task.
I'm saying that in game, both are inadequate as single unit AT weapons. In lore, both are sufficient, although the lascannons is superior.
You were arguing from a game perspective, of prior editions, of course, but right now, lascannons aren't what they used to be.

I said 90ish% because the 10th company size is variable, and it's notably rare for a Chapter to be able to field it's entire 1st company in Terminator Armor. Then you add in the characters and other various super numaries that potentially include Command Squads.

As for the rest, you either misunderstood the argument, or are simply trying to avoid it. The point is that all the personal armor is virtually identical/interchangeable. Bikes are essentially just "guy in Mk5-8 riding a bike", Assault marine is "guy in Mk5-8 with a Jump Pack and CC weapons" for example. All major roles are filled by marines in Mk5-8.
But they're still making changes to their core armour base - which is exactly what the Primaris are doing. You can't praise the old marines for being based on the same base model and adapting around it, and then criticise the Primaris for doing the same.
Phobos, Tacticus, and Gravis are all based on the same core armour set, as per Jes Goodwin.

Centurions are Primaris before Primaris.
"Oldmarines are all the same basic model! Except these ones. And these ones. And these ones."

I'm saying they're poor impressions of Space Marines having been given the characteristics of Tau and Eldar. Flying Battlesuits with no Chainswords
Terminators don't have chainswords. Are they Tau? Sanguinary Guard? Legion Destroyers?
squads all armed with the same weapon.
But Legion Space Marines had that too. Are they not Space Marines?
Some of them even have those little anime-fins.
Anime-fins? You mean the grav-chutes? Should I criticise the large jump jets on Assault Marines are being anime-inspired too?

Andykp wrote:
Comparing primaris to the last version of the tactical squad is no different from comparing lastest tactical marines to RTB01 marines. Clearly all marines. To say otherwise is just being deliberately awkward.

RTB01 Tacticals: 10 Marines. 1 Sergeant with upgrade choices. 1 Special weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon.
8th Ed Tactical Squad: 10 Marines. 1 Sergeant with upgrade choices. 1 Special weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon.
And the majority of the options is the same. Transports are the same. You can field the same Tac Squad 30(?) years later. There are a few options (Like a 3% chance of having a Lasgun, or a 10% chance of having a D-Cannon) that were quickly phased out in those days, but the squad is otherwise virtually identical.
Okay - but are Legion Tactical Squads Space Marines?

I'm not arguing "are Intercessors Tactical Squads?" I'm arguing "are Intercessors Space Marines?". According to you, all Space Marines are Tactical Marines, and Tactical Marines are only Tacticals if they still have a guy with special weapons.

It's worthwhile to acknowledge this. . . however. . . it's important to also acknowledge that the line stabilized shortly afterwards, and has remained stable for 20+ years since. Additionally, "Brand new" Mk 7 Marines could mix squads with Mk6, carry the same weapons, ride the same transports. The difference was purely aesthetic and no other mechanics or "pressures" were involved.
And again, what about 30k?

The only thing I can see clearly here is that we can't even agree what a Space Marine is.

That's such a ****ing mess of disingenuous argumentation I'm going to let it die. You're plainly not here for a real discussion.

I will summarize my response by saying: The iconic Space Marine unit is the Tactical Squad, and Intercessors aren't it, primarily because they lack the options to meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets, with a wide variety of tactics.

Nearly all of the traditional units were similarly equippable to handle a wide variety of targets. Primaris units are generally not.

30K Space Marines, like Primaris, are of 0 interest to me. I don't think of them as "real Space Marines" because doctrinally they are vastly different. They're a "historical" curiosity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ok, but for about two years now there's been a general sentiment that Primaris are the replacements for my army, and I should like them if I want to play marines. There's no denying that as a product, they have been pushed haaaard. That Primaris are the only option for Marines in the future is an opinion that has been the voiced sentiment of many on this forum.


exceptg the vast majority of the "primaris are the future" claims I see comes from the critics. are primaris being pushed? the intercessor DOES seem to be taking the tac marines place as the cover art marine yes but other then that, I don't see it, unless you mean the advertising for codices etc. and thats just GW advertising new minis. they're not going to advertise the tac squad when they have a new release of other stuff.

I'm open to that possibility, that'd be fine by me. I think that creating a bunch of uncertainty about the future of "classic" marines was potentially a mishandling of company PR. I don't know.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 00:00:49


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 Insectum7 wrote:
I will summarize my response by saying: The iconic Space Marine unit is the Tactical Squad, and Intercessors aren't it, primarily because they lack the options to meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets, with a wide variety of tactics.
But they're not the ONLY Space Marine unit, are they?

Can a Tactical Squad with a flamer and heavy bolter "meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets with a wide variety of tactics"? Or are they similarly hampered?

Nearly all of the traditional units were similarly equippable to handle a wide variety of targets.
Assault Marines were anti-tank? Devastators handling melee? Marine units were hardly any more versatile than Guardsmen in what they could do. Their versatility wasn't unique to them being Astartes. And again, 30k units are Astartes, who also lack that kind of versatility. Are you going to argue that they're not Space Marines?

30K Space Marines, like Primaris, are of 0 interest to me. I don't think of them as "real Space Marines" because doctrinally they are vastly different. They're a "historical" curiosity.
Then that's not my fault. Factually, 30k Astartes are just as much Space Marines as their 40k descendants, and Primaris too.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Seriously? You're telling me that a Space Marine Veteran 20 years ago looks the same as one now?

This is what I mean by disingenuous. You're not showing up to the table.

First, is a Veteran a core unit? Maybe it is. But maybe it's not. But you can make a Vet out of anything you like, you don't have to use the Sternguard kit. The Sternguard kit exists to make fancy space marines, and just gives reason to sell another kit. But the core units? The unit that the decoration is added on top of? Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Terminators, etc. no drift.

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BTW, the thread asking for removal of the old marines was a martyr thread by a Primaris hater. It was not Primaris fans asking for that.

As for what GW will do, we don't know. The old marines are still relatively prominent in the new codex. The fluff sections heavily hint to them being phased out though. It talks about more and more old marines accepting the Primaris conversion. Like it or not, at least in the background the old marines are a dying breed.

   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I will summarize my response by saying: The iconic Space Marine unit is the Tactical Squad, and Intercessors aren't it, primarily because they lack the options to meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets, with a wide variety of tactics.
But they're not the ONLY Space Marine unit, are they?

Can a Tactical Squad with a flamer and heavy bolter "meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets with a wide variety of tactics"? Or are they similarly hampered?

Again, a disingenuous counter. TWO strawmans in the first response.

A: I never said Tactical Squads were the only Space Marine unit. I've said they were the iconic Space Marine unit. I may have said they were the original Space Marine unit. But never the only Space Marine unit.

B: I never made the assertion that every possible load-out for Tacticals is viable in every circumstance.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
First, is a Veteran a core unit? Maybe it is. But maybe it's not.
Can't see why they aren't.
But you can make a Vet out of anything you like, you don't have to use the Sternguard kit. The Sternguard kit exists to make fancy space marines, and just gives reason to sell another kit.
Sure, and you could make "Intercessors" out of whatever you like, you could kitbash the Tactical kit. But there IS a dedicated kit for them.

The Sternguard kit exists to make Sternguard Veterans, just like how the Tactical Squad kit exists to make Tactical Marines. You can kitbash them to create other units, but you can't argue with what's on the front cover of the box.

But the core units? The unit that the decoration is added on top of? Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Terminators, etc. no drift.
So there's been NO difference between the upblinged Tactical Marines and the more spartan looking 2nd edition ones?

I respectfully disagree.


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 Crimson wrote:
BTW, the thread asking for removal of the old marines was a martyr thread by a Primaris hater. It was not Primaris fans asking for that.

As for what GW will do, we don't know. The old marines are still relatively prominent in the new codex. The fluff sections heavily hint to them being phased out though. It talks about more and more old marines accepting the Primaris conversion. Like it or not, at least in the background the old marines are a dying breed.

I don't care too much about that thread. But you sorta make my point in acknowleging that the threat of me losing the ability to play my favorite army in 40K is a real threat.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I will summarize my response by saying: The iconic Space Marine unit is the Tactical Squad, and Intercessors aren't it, primarily because they lack the options to meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets, with a wide variety of tactics.
But they're not the ONLY Space Marine unit, are they?

Can a Tactical Squad with a flamer and heavy bolter "meaningfully engage a wide variety of targets with a wide variety of tactics"? Or are they similarly hampered?

Again, a disingenuous counter. TWO strawmans in the first response.

A: I never said Tactical Squads were the only Space Marine unit. I've said they were the iconic Space Marine unit. I may have said they were the original Space Marine unit. But never the only Space Marine unit.
Great - so why, when I asked if Tacticals without special weapons were still "Marines", you said they weren't?

Quote for proof:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
There are Marines, and there are Marines. Classic Tactical, Devastator etc. are the latter. It is what it is.
Honestly, no, I don't get it.

If I took a unit of Tactical Marines without a special or heavy weapon, are they still "Marines", as you put it?

In my book? No.
As you said - Tacticals without special weapons (aka, regular Marines with bolters) aren't actually Space Marines.

B: I never made the assertion that every possible load-out for Tacticals is viable in every circumstance.
No, but you did claim they were more flexible, which is only as true as the weapons they happen to have at the time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/16 00:20:50



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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But the core units? The unit that the decoration is added on top of? Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Terminators, etc. no drift.
So there's been NO difference between the upblinged Tactical Marines and the more spartan looking 2nd edition ones?

I respectfully disagree.

Go on. Show me.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
B: I never made the assertion that every possible load-out for Tacticals is viable in every circumstance.
No, but you did claim they were more flexible, which is only as true as the weapons they happen to have at the time.

Only if you consciously decide to narrow the definition of "flexible" because you don't have an argument otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 00:21:38


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 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

That said I wish people would stop beating a dead horse about how much they hate Primaris every release. I mean I don't like Tau (too much Mech, not enough mixed aliens for my tastes) but I just shrug and move on when it gets something new. This constant Primaris bashing is just toxic behavior that is poisoning the well for others and could even chase off new players.


I agree. I mean in the last week in addition to the Primaris Hate train hijacking all the threads trying to discuss the new stuff, we've also got something like 4 or 5 sepooerate "I DON'T LIKE PRIAMRIS MARINES AND YOU SHOULDN'T EAITHER" threads. it's beyond rediculas,

Ok, but for about two years now there's been a general sentiment that Primaris are the replacements for my army, and I should like them if I want to play marines. There's no denying that as a product, they have been pushed haaaard. That Primaris are the only option for Marines in the future is an opinion that has been the voiced sentiment of many on this forum.

We have some bizarre misinformation about the history/tone of the classics. Like that weird post upthread talking about aesthetic drift, when the core units look almost exactly the same after 20 years. There was just another thread not too long ago talking about "scale-creep" in the line, and that's shown to be totally overblown.

We also have a thread where the OP is actively calling for the removal of my army from the game.

Truth be told, I'm fine with you liking and purchasing Primaris. I will happily fight against them using my classics/true/legacy marines. But if a thread is going to start up about how the aesthetics are a turn-off, I'm going to be all over that, because it's really interesting to me, as design is part of my profession. I want to correct the misinformation. Plus the obvious "Space Marines" are something that I'm passionate about.


regarding the thread about stuff being removed from the game. if you're refering to the "can GW just hurry up and get rid of old Marines" thread, not sure you READ the OP in that but it's actually (yet another) Primaris complaint thread. Now I'm not a GW employee so I can't say for sure what their plan is, but my general suspicion is they intend to double dip for a long time to come. the core of a Marine army is the tac squad, devestator squad, and assault squad. and these are all pretty new kits right now, (if you include the HH armor varients as tac squad kits the tac squad is only 3 years old. the assault and vestator kits are only 4) I suspect GW intends to double dip for the forseeable future.

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