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Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

robbienw wrote:
Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

Lame

 Crimson wrote:

what chapter is the primaris here from?

 Apple Peel wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

Lame

There is objectively no reason to bother answering.

Shooter wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

what chapter is the primaris here from?

Nemesis Chapter - Ultramarine 2nd Founding successors, descended from the 22nd Chapter, who were predominantly known for their use of Destroyer Squads.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
The way I see it, Oldmarines no longer have a reason to exist. There are Primaris equivalents for pretty much every unit and battlefield role at this point, so it makes little in-universe sense to raise new standard marine troops.

Personally, I decided my own chapter went renegade when they were offered reinforcements from the Indomitus Crusade, seeing them as a heretical abomination designed to supercede and exterminate them (needless to say, they do not consider Rowboat Guilliman as their spiritual liege). This saves me money, too, as I can buy all my minis from the secondhand market now (I do not expect GW to ever release a non-Primaris marine model ever again).

Problem with that is we are still missing the majority of the equalivents.

Except :

Assault Marines (Close Assault Jump-pack)
Vanguard Marines (Close Assault Jump-pack Elite)
Assault Terminators (Close Assault Elite Unit specializing in either anti vehicle or anti-infantry)
Land Raider (Large Space Marine Tank with large unit capacity)
Fellblade (Heavy Anti-Tank Role)
Levithian Dreadnought (Heavy Assault Walker)
Captain with Jump Pack (Captain that fights with a jet pack)
Captain on Bike (Captain that fights on a mount)
Biker Marines (Close Assault bikers)
Landspeeder (Scouting Vehicle)
Neophyte Unit (Recruits)
Tactical Marines with support weapons (Multi-purpose tactical unit)
Techmarines (Mechanic)
Sternguard Elite Marines (Elite Infantry)
Terminators with elite role (Elite Heavy Infantry)
Attack bike (Fast Attack)
Whirlwind (artillery)
Thunderfire Cannon (Artillery)
Rhino (Transport only vehicle)

My issue with the design is the lack of cohesive design that ties it to the era of 40k. While much of the lore has changed away from "Degrading technology." That particular aesthetic is very flavorful in a galaxy where: Humanity is surrounded, their golden days are gone, they are fighting for survival, resources are thinning. Primaris armor is easily produced and is everywhere which makes it look bland, there are no differences in helmet design between any of them, no smooth grooves, or different marks of armor. The personalization is very rare it seems and leaves the design boring. As we don't have any examples of very ornate armor, skulls, for example, were common on marines (the ratio was higher on older marines), armor worn by champions, etc was always highly decorated especially in comparison to the rest of the model. The armor doesn't feel lived in compared to the older models. Especially with Captains and SGTs, purity seals are always on the models, the shoulder pads should be engraved with runes, or words of the imperium, and implied grandeur. There is currently a lot of empty space on most of the models which leave a pretty 'blank slate' on most of the marines. Which I get its for people to convert them.

Too much tacticool takes away from the aesthetic of space marines as they are supposed to be gothic in overall design, which is rigid lines, and rigid armor plates. Smoothness is a bit too modern sci-fi and seems more like a starting 3d artist.

Their helmets are almost universally the same in design and have the same feel which I think distracts from their design. Which can be easily fixed with head swaps with older marines. The older marine helmet has this 'grim' face to it and is quite scary compared to the primaris helmets which just look like helmets and not faces (which most marines are emblematic of).

If we are going to discuss the issue of the marines currently it is that their helmets are too 'round' and 'sleek'. Rigidness is the cornerstone of most of the marine army, often people would laugh at marine stuff for being 'boxy' but that's sorta the point of their design. Very few of the marines roster had any roundness to its overall design.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

Lame

There is objectively no reason to bother answering.

True, but making a "I can't be bothered to even read part of your argument, so I'm going to assume you made no valid points" is a bit immature. Just saying "I don't have time/I don't care/I can't be bothered to discuss this any more" would be preferable to saying "I haven't read it, but I'll assume you said nothing important".

 slave.entity wrote:
The new direction for modern space marines is tacticool. I don't like it either but at this point we might as well get used to it.

For whatever reason GW has decided that tacticool is the look that's going to expand their audience so that's what we're getting. RIP, gothic space knights.

You should all go and listen to the episodes of Voxcast with Jed Goodwin. Among other things, the Primaris we’re seeing now are deliberately light on the bling so there’s somewhere to go with Chapter-specific models, officers, characters and elite units without ending up overburdened like the Vanguard and Seternguard Marines are.

Plus if you read the novels most Primaris have the feel of 'kid lost at the grocery store', a lot of naivety that detracts from the characters and story overall. Though this seems to be an issue throughout all the new stories.

Yes they are the 'new kid' at the block, but they aren't idiots. They are still superhumans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
The new direction for modern space marines is tacticool. I don't like it either but at this point we might as well get used to it.

For whatever reason GW has decided that tacticool is the look that's going to expand their audience so that's what we're getting. RIP, gothic space knights.

You should all go and listen to the episodes of Voxcast with Jed Goodwin. Among other things, the Primaris we’re seeing now are deliberately light on the bling so there’s somewhere to go with Chapter-specific models, officers, characters and elite units without ending up overburdened like the Vanguard and Seternguard Marines are.

Cool idea but in practice very hard to make your own when there is very few compatible kits that can make them look 'ancient' or 'gothic' or fitting in a theme. With items or bits swap being so far and few in between like you can with the mini marines set. the blankness on them just makes them look boring as every single model in their range is quite blank and bland. But that would require so much work to make them feel 'unique' yeah a gold mine for converters with oodles and oodles of green stuff but for the bit mixers and kitbashers its a nightmare as their armor and legs are not compatible with others, as they are almost all monopose. Scratch that all of them are monopose leading to them all having the same look.

The multipart kits come out as very stiff and very bland, as almost every primaris squad looks the same because you can't mess with their legs, or with their torso without having to use greenstuff. (having built forty of them you really need greenstuff to give them any unique look)

 Apple Peel wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

Lame

A wild Cartman appears.

robbienw wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

Lame

A wild Cartman appears.

Your horridly rude response warranted it.

All the points the two haters are making have been answered so many times its tiresome.

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with the impulsor myself.

It's boxy and clunky in a bad way, rather than boxy and clunky in a good way.

Insightful design critique from a professional.

You claim that what makes a marine is tactical squads and load out but that is just your opinion not a fact. One of the reasons marines have been a success over the decades is that they appeal to so many people by being many things at once. Some like the gothic knightly business, some warrior monks, some military elites, some even werewolves on dogs. Marines can be it all and each person will have their own image of what a marine is. To you it’s the noble tactical squad but I bet many black Templar fans don’t see that when they think about marines or space wolf fans. What I have always seen about marines is perfectly captured by the new range, they are the essence of 1st edition marines to me, and load out doesn’t come into it.

So your whole argument is based around an opinion presented as a fact. So doesn’t stand up sorry.

Some opinions are better than others. For example, some opinions are more informed. When things are said like "The current Tactical Squad is significantly different then the original Tactical Squad", that's ill informed. When people say the styling of basic marines has drifted, that's ill informed.

If you want to have a real discussion, then argue in good faith and correct misinformation.

I assert that the Tactical squad is the core unit of the flagship faction of the flagship product of GW, and that it has been consistent for decades. I also assert that the other core/iconic units are primarily just variations on the Tactical Squad format. Primaris upends this.

And tac squads have consistently been poop on the table. I'm glad its upended.

I'd argue that the tactical squad isn't the "core unit of marines" rather the "core unit of marines" is a suit of pwoer armor, with large pauldrons, a backpack, and a bolter

in other words the core of space marines isn't

it's


and there are plenty of variations on that

such as

etc. but yeah it's all the core identity.

^ Yep, definitely agreed.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd argue that the tactical squad isn't the "core unit of marines" rather the "core unit of marines" is a suit of pwoer armor, with large pauldrons, a backpack, and a bolter

in other words the core of space marines isn't

it's

This is exactly my point. The argument of "if a 'Tactical' Squad doesn't have a special weapon guy in it, then they're not even Space Marines" would mean that that lone model there can't be a Space Marine, when he clearly is.

I honestly don't know how someone can look at an Intercessor or any Primaris unit and not think "oh, they're a Space Marine unit".

EDIT: Also, I didn't realise just how similar that auto bolt rifle Intercessor and that lone Space Marine look.

It's clearly not a Space Marine though because it can't take a single ineffective weapon at 5 dudes OR two mismatched ineffective weapons at 10 dudes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's clearly not a Space Marine though because it can't take a single ineffective weapon at 5 dudes OR two mismatched ineffective weapons at 10 dudes.

They can do the first! Auxiliary grenade launcher is a thing! GW needs to add an auxiliary flamer so the Intercessors can finally be real marines!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Sgt Smudge, i'm getting massive TLDR and hurting eyes from all the mini quotes in your last post. Just assume i disagree with most of what you said, especially the whataboutery

Lame

There is objectively no reason to bother answering.

True, but making a "I can't be bothered to even read part of your argument, so I'm going to assume you made no valid points" is a bit immature. Just saying "I don't have time/I don't care/I can't be bothered to discuss this any more" would be preferable to saying "I haven't read it, but I'll assume you said nothing important".

Then stop breaking people's posts apart line by line. I don't read anyone's posts who does this and you're no exception.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd argue that the tactical squad isn't the "core unit of marines" rather the "core unit of marines" is a suit of pwoer armor, with large pauldrons, a backpack, and a bolter

in other words the core of space marines isn't

Spoiler:

it's


and there are plenty of variations on that

such as

etc. but yeah it's all the core identity.

Superficially, yes I agree. And I'd point out again that very few people are complaining about Primaris because of Intercessors.

Superficially.

If GW is deciding that "superficial" is enough. Fair enough. They have every right to do so. But that doesn't mean there are other things that are being lost with that. And that's what I'm concerned about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's clearly not a Space Marine though because it can't take a single ineffective weapon at 5 dudes OR two mismatched ineffective weapons at 10 dudes.

It's not my fault you're ineffective with your weapons

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd argue that the tactical squad isn't the "core unit of marines" rather the "core unit of marines" is a suit of pwoer armor, with large pauldrons, a backpack, and a bolter

in other words the core of space marines isn't

Spoiler:

it's


and there are plenty of variations on that

such as

etc. but yeah it's all the core identity.

Superficially, yes I agree. And I'd point out again that very few people are complaining about Primaris because of Intercessors.

Superficially.

If GW is deciding that "superficial" is enough. Fair enough. They have every right to do so. But that doesn't mean there are other things that are being lost with that. And that's what I'm concerned about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's clearly not a Space Marine though because it can't take a single ineffective weapon at 5 dudes OR two mismatched ineffective weapons at 10 dudes.

It's not my fault you're ineffective with your weapons

Yeah because a single ML and Flamer at 145 points is core identity and SUPER effective.

Or you can get your head out of your ass and realize it was never good to begin with.

Grimtuff wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
True, but making a "I can't be bothered to even read part of your argument, so I'm going to assume you made no valid points" is a bit immature. Just saying "I don't have time/I don't care/I can't be bothered to discuss this any more" would be preferable to saying "I haven't read it, but I'll assume you said nothing important".

Then stop breaking people's posts apart line by line. I don't read anyone's posts who does this and you're no exception.

And what, leave a giant wall of text at the bottom, with no quotes and context to what part I'm replying to? Sounds like that would just lead to confusion as people scroll up and downwards trying to find which specific line and point I'm commenting on.

My apologies if you don't want to read comments like that, but I'm not going to change. I find it more annoying to read posts that don't make an effort to highlight which comments are in response to which. I remove previous comments from people who aren't the person I'm responding to, to reduce this bloat, but I think that breaking a person's argument down and tackling each part makes a far more detailed and comprehensive argument than a big block at the end.

There is literally no reason to pick apart people's posts line by line and respond to everyone. You do that, I don't read your posts, it's that simple.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Superficially, yes I agree. And I'd point out again that very few people are complaining about Primaris because of Intercessors.

Superficially.

If GW is deciding that "superficial" is enough. Fair enough. They have every right to do so. But that doesn't mean there are other things that are being lost with that. And that's what I'm concerned about.

If those things aren't to do with the aesthetic of the Space Marines, then it's not for this thread.

As far as aesthetic design goes, I think the Primaris *as a whole* fit just fine. Yes, there are some units which look more distinct from others, but that's also the same in the regular "core" lineup. Hell, Necromunda Palanites look more like Space Marines than the Scouts do. Of course, we all know that a Scout has lots of cloth and less armour, but they look more removed from the image of the Tactical Marine. Compare this to the Intercessor (the standard unit of the Primaris) and a Phobos unit like Infiltrators. They have far more in common stylistically, both wearing power armour, even though you can clearly see one is designed for stealth. Their designs are more closely linked, and still distinct enough to tell us what their role is.
Scouts and Tacticals have this, but look far less cohesive together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:
There is literally no reason to pick apart people's posts line by line and respond to everyone.

Why not? If someone makes a point that I want to address, I will. I don't address EVERY point for the sake of it, of course, but there's no reason I *shouldn't*.

You do that, I don't read your posts, it's that simple.

I don't think what I do is asking much, but hey, not my problem. You do you.

Andykp wrote:
haters

This one says more about you and how you approach a discussion about proportions on a plastic space man than anything else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd argue that the tactical squad isn't the "core unit of marines" rather the "core unit of marines" is a suit of pwoer armor, with large pauldrons, a backpack, and a bolter

in other words the core of space marines isn't

Spoiler:

it's


and there are plenty of variations on that

such as

etc. but yeah it's all the core identity.

Superficially, yes I agree. And I'd point out again that very few people are complaining about Primaris because of Intercessors.

Superficially.

If GW is deciding that "superficial" is enough. Fair enough. They have every right to do so. But that doesn't mean there are other things that are being lost with that. And that's what I'm concerned about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's clearly not a Space Marine though because it can't take a single ineffective weapon at 5 dudes OR two mismatched ineffective weapons at 10 dudes.

It's not my fault you're ineffective with your weapons

Yeah because a single ML and Flamer at 145 points is core identity and SUPER effective.

Or you can get your head out of your ass and realize it was never good to begin with.

Up until 8th edition a single Meltagun had a significantly non-zero chance of taking out most vehicles.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd argue that the tactical squad isn't the "core unit of marines" rather the "core unit of marines" is a suit of pwoer armor, with large pauldrons, a backpack, and a bolter

in other words the core of space marines isn't

Spoiler:

it's


and there are plenty of variations on that

such as

etc. but yeah it's all the core identity.

Superficially, yes I agree. And I'd point out again that very few people are complaining about Primaris because of Intercessors.

Superficially.

If GW is deciding that "superficial" is enough. Fair enough. They have every right to do so. But that doesn't mean there are other things that are being lost with that. And that's what I'm concerned about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's clearly not a Space Marine though because it can't take a single ineffective weapon at 5 dudes OR two mismatched ineffective weapons at 10 dudes.

It's not my fault you're ineffective with your weapons

Yeah because a single ML and Flamer at 145 points is core identity and SUPER effective.

Or you can get your head out of your ass and realize it was never good to begin with.

Up until 8th edition a single Meltagun had a significantly non-zero chance of taking out most vehicles.

LOL no it didn't. You still needed a good amount of them and in Melta range too, which doesn't mesh with the heavy weapon they're supposed to carry!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

LOL no it didn't. You still needed a good amount of them and in Melta range too, which doesn't mesh with the heavy weapon they're supposed to carry!

8+2D6 take the highest armor penetration with a +2 on the damage table, delivered by Pods to close range and using Doctrines for re-rolls to hit. Combat squadded out to get two 5-man Tacticals in a Pod, redundancy with two Squads with Meltagun/Combi-melta each, and the Heavy Weapon Combat Squads in the backfield holding objectives.

"Git Gud" seems like the appropriate response here.

"Missile Launcher/Flamer" assumption is the epitome of strawmanning/bad faith. If you want a serious discussion you have to do better. If you don't want a serious discussion, as you were I guess, but don't expect a serious response.

Whether the setup is effective is besides the point. I find it hard to grasp that someone would see the exact gear setup being part of the core identity, to me it certainly isn't. Bolt weapons and power armour sure, but those optional other weapons certainly not. But this is pretty much 'agree to disagree' territory.