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I just took a look at the new custom SM traits, compared to the CSM ones.

Two of the best CSM traits are the new Purge and Flawless Host ones. Reroll all hits against damaged (that turn) units, and 6's in melee give you a bonus attack.

Custom Space Marines can get the 6's in melee = bonus attack as ONE of their traits, and ALSO take 'reroll all hits in melee' as another. So for a melee unit, they can have the best two CSM traits in one squad.

Balanced.

Sure the csm one allows for shooting too, but there are other traits for shooting. Rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound per unit is probably better, as it doesn't rely on previous damage and it works well with MSU.

So yeh, space marines can take the best two traits CSM have to offer, roll them together and call it fair.

All CSM have left is -1 to hit, which will be gone by the end of the year.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, CSM really got hammered, imo.

So long it is not the one codex that stuck around for so long and basically came right after the best conceptually written out CSM dex.
We will be annoyed, but fine.

I've been waiting since this edition went live for Legion tactics on my other units. I can't even look at my models right now I'm so disgusted.

I don't know why its so hard for them to make everyone's codex at least solid.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, CSM really got hammered, imo.

So long it is not the one codex that stuck around for so long and basically came right after the best conceptually written out CSM dex.
We will be annoyed, but fine.

I've been waiting since this edition went live for Legion tactics on my other units. I can't even look at my models right now I'm so disgusted.

But you can't complain, YOU GOT LORD DISCORDANT MATE:

no seriously that was brought up as an argument when i dared to state that this is Bollocks of the highest degree.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know why its so hard for them to make everyone's codex at least solid.

It is so hard because it would hurt their bottom line.
atleast on some models that is imo verifyable. and the the rest is pretty clear that they have no idea WTF they are doing and that the rules team has no interaction between them to ever discuss anything.

Niiru wrote:
I just took a look at the new custom SM traits, compared to the CSM ones.

Two of the best CSM traits are the new Purge and Flawless Host ones. Reroll all hits against damaged (that turn) units, and 6's in melee give you a bonus attack.

Custom Space Marines can get the 6's in melee = bonus attack as ONE of their traits, and ALSO take 'reroll all hits in melee' as another. So for a melee unit, they can have the best two CSM traits in one squad.

Balanced.

Sure the csm one allows for shooting too, but there are other traits for shooting. Rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound per unit is probably better, as it doesn't rely on previous damage and it works well with MSU.

So yeh, space marines can take the best two traits CSM have to offer, roll them together and call it fair.

All CSM have left is -1 to hit, which will be gone by the end of the year.

It's almost as though I was right all along that Renegades should never have been handled in the Chaos Marine codex, which should be focused strictly on Legions.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, CSM really got hammered, imo.

So long it is not the one codex that stuck around for so long and basically came right after the best conceptually written out CSM dex.
We will be annoyed, but fine.

I've been waiting since this edition went live for Legion tactics on my other units. I can't even look at my models right now I'm so disgusted.

But you can't complain, YOU GOT LORD DISCORDANT MATE:

no seriously that was brought up as an argument when i dared to state that this is Bollocks of the highest degree.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know why its so hard for them to make everyone's codex at least solid.

It is so hard because it would hurt their bottom line.
atleast on some models that is imo verifyable. and the the rest is pretty clear that they have no idea WTF they are doing and that the rules team has no interaction between them to ever discuss anything.

It's not necessarily right but Choas marine's or atleast their codex has been contributing as part of choas soup while codex loyalists hasn't really beeing contributing to imperial soup.
Hence why GW on a quick observation though Choas marine's weren't in as bad a shape as loyalists and pushed back the loyalist book to fix their issues will pumping out the choas 2.0 with minimal changes.

Probably not helped by the uptake in actual spike powerarmour post vigilous stuff, even though they weren't exactlly carrying that list either.

No chapter traits for vehicles either lmao

Niiru wrote:
I just took a look at the new custom SM traits, compared to the CSM ones.

Two of the best CSM traits are the new Purge and Flawless Host ones. Reroll all hits against damaged (that turn) units, and 6's in melee give you a bonus attack.

Custom Space Marines can get the 6's in melee = bonus attack as ONE of their traits, and ALSO take 'reroll all hits in melee' as another. So for a melee unit, they can have the best two CSM traits in one squad.

Balanced.

Sure the csm one allows for shooting too, but there are other traits for shooting. Rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound per unit is probably better, as it doesn't rely on previous damage and it works well with MSU.

So yeh, space marines can take the best two traits CSM have to offer, roll them together and call it fair.

All CSM have left is -1 to hit, which will be gone by the end of the year.

Good thing no one will use the custom traits and C:SM are bad at melee huh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, CSM really got hammered, imo.

So long it is not the one codex that stuck around for so long and basically came right after the best conceptually written out CSM dex.
We will be annoyed, but fine.

I've been waiting since this edition went live for Legion tactics on my other units. I can't even look at my models right now I'm so disgusted.

But you can't complain, YOU GOT LORD DISCORDANT MATE:

no seriously that was brought up as an argument when i dared to state that this is Bollocks of the highest degree.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know why its so hard for them to make everyone's codex at least solid.

It is so hard because it would hurt their bottom line.
atleast on some models that is imo verifyable. and the the rest is pretty clear that they have no idea WTF they are doing and that the rules team has no interaction between them to ever discuss anything.

It's not necessarily right but Choas marine's or atleast their codex has been contributing as part of choas soup while codex loyalists hasn't really beeing contributing to imperial soup.
Hence why GW on a quick observation though Choas marine's weren't in as bad a shape as loyalists and pushed back the loyalist book to fix their issues will pumping out the choas 2.0 with minimal changes.

Probably not helped by the uptake in actual spike powerarmour post vigilous stuff, even though they weren't exactlly carrying that list either.

The only viable unit in the Entire SM lineup was the smash captain and they killed it.

ERJAK wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I just took a look at the new custom SM traits, compared to the CSM ones.

Two of the best CSM traits are the new Purge and Flawless Host ones. Reroll all hits against damaged (that turn) units, and 6's in melee give you a bonus attack.

Custom Space Marines can get the 6's in melee = bonus attack as ONE of their traits, and ALSO take 'reroll all hits in melee' as another. So for a melee unit, they can have the best two CSM traits in one squad.

Balanced.

Sure the csm one allows for shooting too, but there are other traits for shooting. Rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound per unit is probably better, as it doesn't rely on previous damage and it works well with MSU.

So yeh, space marines can take the best two traits CSM have to offer, roll them together and call it fair.

All CSM have left is -1 to hit, which will be gone by the end of the year.

Good thing no one will use the custom traits and C:SM are bad at melee huh?

Yesn 't, the units in melee are generally not marines.
Not even Berzerkers anymore thanks to the nerf to Al.

Ice_can wrote:

It's not necessarily right but Choas marine's or atleast their codex has been contributing as part of choas soup while codex loyalists hasn't really beeing contributing to imperial soup.
Hence why GW on a quick observation though Choas marine's weren't in as bad a shape as loyalists and pushed back the loyalist book to fix their issues will pumping out the choas 2.0 with minimal changes.

Probably not helped by the uptake in actual spike powerarmour post vigilous stuff, even though they weren't exactlly carrying that list either.

Is this even correct? I thought there were several 'space marine' units used in soups. Smash captains obviously, but there's some others too. Not saying SM didn't need an update, but CSM were in the exact same need. The only units from CSM that were actually worthwhile in soups were Daemon Princes, and they got restricted enough that they're actually fine now.

The things you're referring too is probably the 1kSons supreme command, which is pretty good. The CSM codex needed improving to match that, really.

So yeh, if that was really GW's thought process, they're more inept than even Dakka thinks they are. Compared to new SM, CSM is in a bad place. And their only soup options are Daemons, and they're... pretty bad, mostly.

In fact this is probably why CSM appears in more soup lists - the alternatives are Renegades and Heretics (by far the worst army list in the game) and Daemons (90% of which is not much better).

ERJAK wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I just took a look at the new custom SM traits, compared to the CSM ones.

Two of the best CSM traits are the new Purge and Flawless Host ones. Reroll all hits against damaged (that turn) units, and 6's in melee give you a bonus attack.

Custom Space Marines can get the 6's in melee = bonus attack as ONE of their traits, and ALSO take 'reroll all hits in melee' as another. So for a melee unit, they can have the best two CSM traits in one squad.

Balanced.

Sure the csm one allows for shooting too, but there are other traits for shooting. Rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound per unit is probably better, as it doesn't rely on previous damage and it works well with MSU.

So yeh, space marines can take the best two traits CSM have to offer, roll them together and call it fair.

All CSM have left is -1 to hit, which will be gone by the end of the year.

Good thing no one will use the custom traits and C:SM are bad at melee huh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, CSM really got hammered, imo.

So long it is not the one codex that stuck around for so long and basically came right after the best conceptually written out CSM dex.
We will be annoyed, but fine.

I've been waiting since this edition went live for Legion tactics on my other units. I can't even look at my models right now I'm so disgusted.

But you can't complain, YOU GOT LORD DISCORDANT MATE:

no seriously that was brought up as an argument when i dared to state that this is Bollocks of the highest degree.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know why its so hard for them to make everyone's codex at least solid.

It is so hard because it would hurt their bottom line.
atleast on some models that is imo verifyable. and the the rest is pretty clear that they have no idea WTF they are doing and that the rules team has no interaction between them to ever discuss anything.

It's not necessarily right but Choas marine's or atleast their codex has been contributing as part of choas soup while codex loyalists hasn't really beeing contributing to imperial soup.
Hence why GW on a quick observation though Choas marine's weren't in as bad a shape as loyalists and pushed back the loyalist book to fix their issues will pumping out the choas 2.0 with minimal changes.

Probably not helped by the uptake in actual spike powerarmour post vigilous stuff, even though they weren't exactlly carrying that list either.

The only viable unit in the Entire SM lineup was the smash captain and they killed it.

Not yet they didn't. BA THs still 21pts for characters, lol.

 bullyboy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


The only viable unit in the Entire SM lineup was the smash captain and they killed it.

Not yet they didn't. BA THs still 21pts for characters, lol.

And upping the points by a bit doesn't kill the captain either. Still a good unit. Still not as bad as the 115pt obliterators.

besides nerf the thunderhammer and you just see captains with power fists or something.

BrianDavion wrote:
besides nerf the thunderhammer and you just see captains with power fists or something.

That -1 to hit though,.
No the Thunder Hammer still is the better choice.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
besides nerf the thunderhammer and you just see captains with power fists or something.

That -1 to hit though,.
No the Thunder Hammer still is the better choice.

They both have a -1 to hit. Power Fists cost 25% of the points as a Thunder Hammer for roughly a -1 to damage. On characters with a ton of attacks, the Power Fist might be the better option.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
besides nerf the thunderhammer and you just see captains with power fists or something.

That -1 to hit though,.
No the Thunder Hammer still is the better choice.

They both have a -1 to hit. Power Fists cost 25% of the points as a Thunder Hammer for roughly a -1 to damage. On characters with a ton of attacks, the Power Fist might be the better option.

Well then, "I cast fist" is back in business. Atleast it seems that way

I'll just stick with Chainfists for Terminator HQs at that point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'll just stick with Chainfists for Terminator HQs at that point.

Ha. Right? 22 pts instead of 40 pts, if I remember right. It is one less damage, but better AP. Pretty good trade, IMO.

I am keeping my Power Fists (even on my Intercessor Sergeants, even though Hammers would be better). Especially on my Primaris Captain (Crimson Fists Relic is a better Thunder Hammer, FTW!).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'll just stick with Chainfists for Terminator HQs at that point.

Ha. Right? 22 pts instead of 40 pts, if I remember right. It is one less damage, but better AP. Pretty good trade, IMO.

I am keeping my Power Fists (even on my Intercessor Sergeants, even though Hammers would be better). Especially on my Primaris Captain (Crimson Fists Relic is a better Thunder Hammer, FTW!).

The damage is consistent with the average and, though the AP-4 doesn't appear a lot, it'll be just enough.

Anyone else that (in addition to being Str5) the Eliminators Bolt sniper Executioner Rounds & Mirtis rounds swapped profiles?

Why would they do that? The profile with AP-2 Dd3 and causing MWs should be named Executioner.
That's a weird thing to swap

-

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else that (in addition to being Str5) the Eliminators Bolt sniper Executioner Rounds & Mirtis rounds swapped profiles?

Why would they do that? The profile with AP-2 Dd3 and causing MWs should be named Executioner.
That's a weird thing to swap

-

Okay, so I wasn't crazy. It is just bizarre. I suppose the one that lets you shoot through a building to kill your quarry works well as Executioner as well.

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else that (in addition to being Str5) the Eliminators Bolt sniper Executioner Rounds & Mirtis rounds swapped profiles?

Why would they do that? The profile with AP-2 Dd3 and causing MWs should be named Executioner.
That's a weird thing to swap

-

You know what's actually weird is Eliminators being stuck at 3 dudes.

That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

Niiru wrote:

And upping the points by a bit doesn't kill the captain either. Still a good unit. Still not as bad as the 115pt obliterators.

Agreed. A 19-point increase is not massive and he gets +1A in the first round of combat compared to his old incarnation. It is usually the first round that counts with a character like this so I would say it roughly evens out.

 Elbows wrote:
That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

They're not killing Characters super quick hold your horses.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

They're not killing Characters super quick hold your horses.

Care to explain? Because my T-shirt save Magus/Primus/Clamavus/etc are not happy about them, plus the Scoutmaris suddenly being pretty good, plus T1-T6 drop pods.... I mean, it's kinda just one thing to worry about among a good few. And while normally I don't like to pre-emptively complain about something without playing it, but I look at a lot of the changes and just wonder 'How the fudge am i going to effectively fight this book(s) as GSC/Nids?"

If they were in units of 6-10 they absolutely would be. I play Eldar, what Toughness 3/4 character with a whoppin 4+ invulnerable is going to survive on a table if you had 18-30 of those? Answer: none?

If you really, genuinely think they should be taken in large units...then...wow...I'm not sure what to say.

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

They're not killing Characters super quick hold your horses.

Care to explain? Because my T-shirt save Magus/Primus/Clamavus/etc are not happy about them, plus the Scoutmaris suddenly being pretty good, plus T1-T6 drop pods.... I mean, it's kinda just one thing to worry about among a good few. And while normally I don't like to pre-emptively complain about something without playing it, but I look at a lot of the changes and just wonder 'How the fudge am i going to effectively fight this book(s) as GSC/Nids?"

Wow you mean your Cult Characters where everyone jumps in front of them to save them? Those Characters? Yeah you don't get any sympathy sorry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

They're not killing Characters super quick hold your horses.

Care to explain? Because my T-shirt save Magus/Primus/Clamavus/etc are not happy about them, plus the Scoutmaris suddenly being pretty good, plus T1-T6 drop pods.... I mean, it's kinda just one thing to worry about among a good few. And while normally I don't like to pre-emptively complain about something without playing it, but I look at a lot of the changes and just wonder 'How the fudge am i going to effectively fight this book(s) as GSC/Nids?"

Wow you mean your Cult Characters where everyone jumps in front of them to save them? Those Characters? Yeah you don't get any sympathy sorry.

You mean the ability that goes off 50% of the time? An ability that means nothing in a world where Intercessors are Rapid Firing from across the board/tac squads bombard in drop-pods/Aggressors are ripping guardsman bodies apart with boltstorm mittens/A new 'Not a Dread' can fire flamers into my deployment zone T1/etc and wiping my protective squads away? Like I said, it's not just that. It's all of what's coming in the book.
So, nice comeback and congrats on having no sympathy. Keep pushing that boot against the back of Non-Imperial Necks so they get a nice mouthful of that bolter shell filled mud.

hoenstly if GSC are engaged in an EVEN pitched battle with Space Marines they're proably hosed. GSCs should should have some tricky strats to even the odds. (and being cheaper then Marines should be able to fire off more of em. I can't imagine a pure Marine army having more then 10 CPs tops)