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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
They could release another 15 books covering every intricate aspect of Orkish warfare across all possible warzones and I'd buy them all happily.

You either want more content for your faction or you don't. You don't "need" anything except the rulebook and respective codex to play. No one forced anyone to buy the v2 SM codex but I bet it flew off the shelves. No doubt these books will too. I think they're a great idea and one of the best things that GW have announced so far.

Well, really, you don't need more than the free primer and the indexes.
The game still works!

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the new codex has invalidated the old codex. If you want to play at any event, not just a GW one, you have to use the new codex, the old one does not have the same rules, statlines, abilities or points. Not to mention the rules are way better for marines, so you'd be an idiot not to buy it if you want to be competitive and live in an area where people don't mind running old rules for private games. Which I fear will be the same for psychic awakening (not the invalidation but the power of the rules).

I understand what you're saying with regards the new SM codex invalidating the old for competitive play but I think it's so incredibly trivial to get all of the new rules without splashing cash that it's not a real concern.

If I collected SM, I'd buy the book, but it's up to the individual player of course.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the new codex has invalidated the old codex. If you want to play at any event, not just a GW one, you have to use the new codex, the old one does not have the same rules, statlines, abilities or points. Not to mention the rules are way better for marines, so you'd be an idiot not to buy it if you want to be competitive and live in an area where people don't mind running old rules for private games. Which I fear will be the same for psychic awakening (not the invalidation but the power of the rules).

I understand what you're saying with regards the new SM codex invalidating the old for competitive play but I think it's so incredibly trivial to get all of the new rules without splashing cash that it's not a real concern.

If I collected SM, I'd buy the book, but it's up to the individual player of course.

It's not just for competitive, if you want to play anywhere except your garage (or your friend's) you need the new book. At which point you can play whatever you want anyway. And it feels a little dirty to me getting everything through battlescribe. Which I recognise is entirely personal preference.

I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.

Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore. Vigilus didn't update core points costs or drastically change unit rules.

Heck, Vanguard came out in a box set and had a pamphlet for the new rules. Vigilus gave us a couple of units and detachment rules but that's it really outside of the setting for campaign games.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore. Vigilus didn't update core points costs or drastically change unit rules.

Heck, Vanguard came out in a box set and had a pamphlet for the new rules. Vigilus gave us a couple of units and detachment rules but that's it really outside of the setting for campaign games.

Well, the second Vigilus book did, unfortunately. The renegade stuff in that should have been in CSM 2019. It was a pretty big blunder.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore.

IOW, if you want to compete with armies that do get the buffs.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore.

IOW, if you want to compete with armies that do get the buffs.

Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

Long shot, wild theory: "Psychic Awakening" refers to the Emperor's resurrection.

He's not getting off the throne, but he's now able to project his might through his minons and lackeys. In practical terms, this means new psychic powers.

His resurrection has consequences for every other faction. Chaos is able to breach the veil between the Immaterium and realspace more effectively. The Eldar are torn about whether or not to treat him as a new God. The Orks get all anxious and this builds their own psychic might.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

It is very simple, if you want it, you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. This thread is bloody stupid.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Campaign books are only required if you want the extra rules or lore.

IOW, if you want to compete with armies that do get the buffs.

Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

Have there been any formations that have had an out-sized impact on the game? The most I've seen are the casual one-sie/two-sie models getting a set of buffs. Namely discordants and the occasional manticore.

I haven't seen any of these cracking the top tables. And the ones that do were typically alongside a Castellan or a blob of Discordants.

Victrix Guard
Siegebreaker
CF Liberators
Sword Bretheren
Stalker Pack
Cybernetica
Broodsurge
Windrider Host
Wraith Host
Emperor's Blade
Emperor's Conclave
Emperor's Fist
Tempestus Drop
Stompa Mob (duh)
Kult of Speed
Dread Waagh
Blitz Brigade
Bringers of Despair
Devastation Battery
Cult of the Damned
Daemonkin Ritualists
Host Raptorial
Fallen Angels
Legion of Skulls

 Crimson wrote:
It is very simple, if you want it, you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. This thread is bloody stupid.

If you like negative opinions of GW's business practices then click on threads about them, if you don't like them then you don't. This comment is bloody stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Have there been any formations that have had an out-sized impact on the game?

The LRBT formation and its relic are effectively mandatory if you're taking LRBTs.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

Statistically competetive play is still in the minority.

Should we have a better way for the rules only players? Probably. But let's not inflate the issue beyond a smaller number of players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is very simple, if you want it, you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't. This thread is bloody stupid.

If you like negative opinions of GW's business practices then click on threads about them, if you don't like them then you don't. This comment is bloody stupid.

Nah, this is still stupid. The title was clickbait nonsense worthy of Spikey Bits.

 Peregrine wrote:


The LRBT formation and its relic are effectively mandatory if you're taking LRBTs.

But few people are persuaded into an army based around LRBTs even though it exists.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yet more rules bloat. GW are really trying to push it to needing 150 rules sources aren't they?

BINGO. Do I win a prize?

 Mmmpi wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yet more rules bloat. GW are really trying to push it to needing 150 rules sources aren't they?

BINGO. Do I win a prize?

A sad sense of looming dread when you realize this nonsense never ends.

The salt must flow.

There seem to be some major false narratives surrounding this discussion between what is needed, and what is optional. Now I don't know about which style of play is "statistically" more prevalent, but allow me to offer my own anecdote. I currently own two, eighth edition books: the 40k rulebook and Codex: Dark Angels. I have never once been denied a game or been beholden to some rule I didn't possess, just because I don't own a copy of Vigilus or Chapter Approved, whether it be in Open, Narrative or Matched Play. Now while there are a couple of Chapter Approved rules that have become house suggestions for my local store, these are all explained freely by the people who know them to those who don't, because that's how house suggestions work here. Also, I call them suggestions, because if my mate and I want to rock over to a table and completely ignore them, no one's going around policing the tables for "non-conformance." So, again, absolutely zero requirement for anyone to own a book they don't want.

I'd also like to add something very interesting I just learned about an upcoming tournament in my area: if you're a Space Marine player who doesn't yet own the new codex, you're more than welcome to continue relying entirely on the old one, points costs and all. The same goes for Codex: Chaos Space Marines and the Indices. The only caveat is that you can't mix and match between both the old and the new. You use the one you have, and that's it. So you see, all of these issues about being forced to buy stuff you don't want are all rendered moot, when we as a community just act like grown-ups and come up with reasonable solutions to let us play with our toys, and before someone chimes in with the nugget that my area is somehow the outlier and no one else shares this experience: why? Why is my area the outlier? If you're part of a scene that's forcing people to invest in stuff they don't want just so they can play the game, and you're not actively doing anything to change that scene beyond moaning on the internet, then you're not just part of the problem; you are the problem.

Now look, don't get me wrong. I'm not entirely defending Games-Workshop's publication practices: I think the price they charge for bound paper is outrageous, and don't even get me started on the cost of digital books, but this narrative that they're forcing you to buy stuff, otherwise you can't play the game is outright false.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

This just isn't true. GW has stated on numerous occasions that significantly more people just buy the models to collect and paint than they do to play with.

As others have said... You don't NEED to do anything. I don't NEED to buy a new phone every year, and I don't begrudge a company releasing a new updated one every year. Why wouldn't they? Once again, the crying moaners of Dakka are out in force. If you don't like it, stop playing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

It's not dishonest at all. You only 'need' a campaign supplement if you are choosing to use the rules in that supplement. Whether you're playing competitively or not, that's entirely your choice. You're not forced to use any given set of rules just because it exists.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aka "want the rules". Competetive play requires chasing the meta at all points.

And given that most people play competitively enough for the rules to matter it's kind of dishonest to pretend that the supplements are optional.

It's not dishonest at all. You only 'need' a campaign supplement if you are choosing to use the rules in that supplement. Whether you're playing competitively or not, that's entirely your choice. You're not forced to use any given set of rules just because it exists.

All rules are optional. They aren't if you like winning.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All rules are optional. They aren't if you like winning.

Which is entirely no one's problem but one's own. And if one finds oneself complaining to strangers on the internet that they cannot win the dice game with their toys, then one should expect to be ridiculed and compared to a petulant child.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All rules are optional. They aren't if you like winning.

Says the person who misinterprets rules to stir the pot.

If you are so hellbent on needimg to win a game with plastic space people that it defines your very idea of "fun", then maybe you need to rethink why you play this game. Because dropping fat stacks of cash all the time just to chase the meta is not exactly healthy.

Nope, wanting to win doesn't require you to play using a campaign book. Choosing to not use a given supplement doesn't have to just mean that you ignore it while your opponent chooses to use it... that would be absurd.


This really isn't a difficult concept. Way back in 2nd edition, players quite often discussed whether or not to use psykers in their games. Tournaments quite often didn't allow special characters or allies... a trend that continued for several editions.

In 3rd edition, players discussed whether or not to use the Cityfight rules, or the Jungle rules from Codex: Catachans. Later, we were agreeing whether or not to use the trial vehicle or assault rules. In 4th edition, it was Cities of Death, or which mission set to use.

Somehow, some people seem to have forgotten that a game is a contract between two players. You can play competitively, and still not want to play using the rules from a specific campaign.

 insaniak wrote:
Nope, wanting to win doesn't require you to play using a campaign book. Choosing to not use a given supplement doesn't have to just mean that you ignore it while your opponent chooses to use it... that would be absurd.


This really isn't a difficult concept. Way back in 2nd edition, players quite often discussed whether or not to use psykers in their games. Tournaments quite often didn't allow special characters or allies... a trend that continued for several editions.

In 3rd edition, players discussed whether or not to use the Cityfight rules, or the Jungle rules from Codex: Catachans. Later, we were agreeing whether or not to use the trial vehicle or assault rules. In 4th edition, it was Cities of Death, or which mission set to use.

Somehow, some people seem to have forgotten that a game is a contract between two players. You can play competitively, and still not want to play using the rules from a specific campaign.

Most of us didn't forget, it's just a vocal minority stirring the pot because if they don't get their daily dose of screaming into the void of the internet they can't feel fulfilled in their life.

Yes, it's hyperbole, but it's no less hyperbolic than every single one of these Spikey Bits style clickbait trash threads that spread misinformation and salt in the name of internet drama

xenoterracide wrote:
I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.

Buy the PDF's and just print out the specific pages you need.

 Mmmpi wrote:

xenoterracide wrote:
I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.

Buy the PDF's and just print out the specific pages you need.

Keeping PDFs on your phone as back up is pretty lightweight too.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

xenoterracide wrote:
I wish I could buy just the rules pages and leave the fluff for black library, my bag is getting heavy. Also still salty about "you can get the new codex or vigilus ablaze" for CSM, hah! you mean I can get both.

Buy the PDF's and just print out the specific pages you need.

Keeping PDFs on your phone as back up is pretty lightweight too.

Yup. I suggested print outs though because I've been in too many games where my opponent's phone just 'happened' to die.

Like if you like to collect rulebooks (lore/narrative reasons) and or have multiple armies this is a pain if every faction has their own Narrative Book. It's also kind of lame that Viglius got thrown under the bus so quickly. Whos to say that Psychic Awakening won't be instantly out of date when it hits the shelves. Saying you should pay for the aweful Battlescribe is stupid. Also the Awakening makes every new SM codex out of date when they are hardly even released.

8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.

They've changed the setting full of mystery and room to manuvre into yet another copy of the mcu

yes because the MCU is the only thing ever that has a interconnected plot ohh wait thats not true at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThatMG wrote:
Like if you like to collect rulebooks (lore/narrative reasons) and or have multiple armies this is a pain if every faction has their own Narrative Book. It's also kind of lame that Viglius got thrown under the bus so quickly. Whos to say that Psychic Awakening won't be instantly out of date when it hits the shelves. Saying you should pay for the aweful Battlescribe is stupid. Also the Awakening makes every new SM codex out of date when they are hardly even released.

8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.

vigilius was only really made out of date for Marines and tyo be honest the Marines vigilus stuff was kinda annoying. no one else had all but one of their specialist detachments limited by subfaction.