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SemperMortis wrote:


No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC

I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.

The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.

And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.

A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.

Legends isn't really a hit to WAAC, Legends is really a hit to players who play tournament only type games. As their casual reference of " They'll recommend they not be in tournaments " is a kiss of death for some players.

Some, like me, couldn't care any less but for some what GW deems legal and not is the absolute end all be all of this game as it stands.

There might be a couple index options that are point for point better, but most are just simply niche flavor models or beloved old models. I don't think someone bringing rough riders is WAAC, and if they are thought of like that, god help us all.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC

I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.

The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.

And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.

A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.

Ayy lmao, the least ammount of index options Fall under WAAC broken category and even that is debatable daedalus.
Are Chaos lords on mounts also WAAC for you then?
Are Chaos lords on bike WAAC then?
Etc.
It's only hitting people that might could've used 3rd party to kitbash, it's nothing more then spite of GW Post chapterhouse.


Edit: And you defending it even though it obviously is that and calling others in essence WAAC, is hillarious.

No company continues supporting things they dont produce without a silly amount of money coming just for that ( re: windows xp). No company supports the sale of 3rd party manufacturers for there product (though I bet someone is going to find an edge case to that).

If you think this is a terrible move and that GW should suffer, or are bad guys for doing what other companies world wide do with a range of products then wow.

It's not about WAAC, it is about not waating money on items that do not earn money just to keep a few people from complaining. Which they'll do anyway.

Just because other companies do it doesn't mean it isn't a D bag move. Most other companies also don't go out of the way to say how they are our friends and care as much as GW does.

I mean you can support the corporate entity all you want, I'm sure they are very proud of everyone they'll never know who protects them but it would really take a minimal amount of effort, probably the same effort they put into proof reading and editing, to keep up to date with rules for models they sold and people bought and used.

People will complain about anything, but you don't have to dig deep sometimes to find a just cause. Saying we should expect it still doesn't make it feel any better.

Programing to keep up old games, windows systems, etc does cost a lot more time and money. However them touching on the rules for these old models once they are set up would be the smallest issue like once a year.

Paying GW prices, just talking about rough riders here, I think they were like 12$ last I remember buying from them when you could. I have like 3 full squads, I don't think its too much to ask they give them a once over once a year if you tack on all the other old players who have spent similar hundreds and hundreds on just a couple units from way back.

Additionally most of these model were made out of GW kits still.
So these options did indeed generate sales for them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC

I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.

The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.

And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.

A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.

Maybe you not should be calling people WAAC if you have no clue what you are talking about. Snakebite bonebreakas? Seriously?

Ork players are mainly worried about the foot KFF Mek, an actual GW model that has been produced until some point well into 7th, and the biker warboss, a model that has been a staple since 4th edition and is actually still sold by FW.

The reason why the KFF mek is critical is because it's the one thing keeping green tides and walker lists viable. When he is gone the MA big mek can't fill its spot, not just because he is massively overcosted, but more importantly, at 4" he is too slow to keep up with an ork army.
Both the wazbomm and the morkanaut lack character protection and stick out like a sore thumb in an infantry army, which means the KFF just gets removed by the guns people bring anyways to remove knights.

The reason why the warboss is critical is because the only thing in the codex that can actually reach a character/vehicle/elite unit and kill it in combat is a warboss with the relic claw. It's our daemon prince/smash captain/autarch. A regular warboss struggles to fill this role because he cannot zig-zag from cover to cover until he gets there, not drive around a screening unit, and since removing 60+ boyz is not an issue for any modern army, he tends to get exposed and killed before he has crossed even half the board.
Zardsark from forgeword is a strictly worse replacement (less killy, costs more), but for some reason he cannot provide bikers with the ability to advance and charge, despite him leading a mob of warbikers in the fluff.
The wartrike is not even remotely comparable. It can't take any of the relics, isn't good at wounding vehicles or monsters at all, and only does d3 damage. In addition, the huge base often makes it impossible to fit through holes in terrain or screens, also eliminating the assassin aspect of the warboss. It's kind of like replacing a smash captain with land speeder.

On top of all that, we are losing two of our HQs, which leaves us with few options to choose from. Expect to see 3 weird boyz and 3 SAGs in most ork armies from now on.

I honestly don't know why I keep having to stick up for Orks when I don't even play the army. I wish GW would stop the silly. I never understood why they messed with looted wagons, and if Orks lose these HQ characters, that sucks too.

Oh and just my opinion on taste, but the warboss on the trike looks dumb as heck. The one on a bike looks much cooler, other feels like he's the fat man on training wheels.

ccs 779694 10556503 wrote:

Now you know. So don't cheat your opponent again in the future.

.

Well I didn't exactly cheat. It is more like he cheated himself, as he was removing his own models, and it was me that noticed that he was trying to kill his dreadnought with 4W from two psycannon shots going through. Didn't change the game much anyway, still lost. It did suprise me though that the scout primaris have 2W, makes no sense at all with them having less armour. But new codex comes out have to learn it somehow. Today I learned that a space marine player can drop 3 drop pods with 3 units of devastators, and 3 units of sternguard inside, and whip your entire army out turn one.

Karol wrote:

ccs 779694 10556503 wrote:
Today I learned that a space marine player can drop 3 drop pods with 3 units of devastators, and 3 units of sternguard inside, and whip your entire army out turn one.

Just remember, according to the experts, there's nothing really worthwhile putting in drop pods.

The losing of units that never had a model or very old models is just chapter house, it's them catering to a younger audience.
It's why Marines now look like they are ripped from Cod and fortnite.
They don't want kids to be mucking about with knifes clippers and glue to make a unit. Just glue and clippers really. Why do you think when GW does converting they never use a knife and if they do it tells them to get an adult.
The game isn't being sold to veteran hobbyists who will make a Ork boss on a bike out of spare parts and duct tape, but nee hobbyists who buy a kit and have all the options right there.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I honestly don't know why I keep having to stick up for Orks when I don't even play the army. I wish GW would stop the silly. I never understood why they messed with looted wagons, and if Orks lose these HQ characters, that sucks too.

Oh and just my opinion on taste, but the warboss on the trike looks dumb as heck. The one on a bike looks much cooler, other feels like he's the fat man on training wheels.

Heh, models are always a matter of taste. I actually run them both side by side since they are completely different models that do different things.
Sadly, two wartrikes don't make sense since you only need its aura for one or two units and the damage output is laughable for such an expensive model. So even a speed freaks army would be fielding weird boyz and SAGs since there aren't any other useful HQs besides named characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Today I learned that a space marine player can drop 3 drop pods with 3 units of devastators, and 3 units of sternguard inside, and whip your entire army out turn one.

To be fair, any non-GK would not be wiped out and instead just take the casualties and then wipe out all that stuff, putting themselves roughly a thousand points in the lead.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The losing of units that never had a model or very old models is just chapter house, it's them catering to a younger audience.
It's why Marines now look like they are ripped from Cod and fortnite.
They don't want kids to be mucking about with knifes clippers and glue to make a unit. Just glue and clippers really. Why do you think when GW does converting they never use a knife and if they do it tells them to get an adult.
The game isn't being sold to veteran hobbyists who will make a Ork boss on a bike out of spare parts and duct tape, but nee hobbyists who buy a kit and have all the options right there.

Both the warboss on bike and the KFF big mek have an official model made by GW.

Zhardsnark has rules.
And if they don't want kids struggling with plastic, they don't want them touching resin.
I don't see that mek anywhere on GWs website.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Zhardsnark has rules.
And if they don't want kids struggling with plastic, they don't want them touching resin.
I don't see that mek anywhere on GWs website.

That model is not called Zhardsnark:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Ork-Warboss-on-Bike

In addition, nob bikers are also in the codex. Models are sold by FW or can be built from various boxes.

The big mek was still sold during 7th (he even got a transition to fine cast), and is anything but "really old". Large parts of the current ork line are older than that model.
If anything, Kirby-GW intentionally dropped this model from their store to boost sales of the MA big mek.

So neither model is affected by the chapterhouse lawsuit.

 Jidmah wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Zhardsnark has rules.
And if they don't want kids struggling with plastic, they don't want them touching resin.
I don't see that mek anywhere on GWs website.

That model is not called Zhardsnark:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Ork-Warboss-on-Bike

In addition, nob bikers are also in the codex. Models are sold by FW or can be built from various boxes.

The big mek was still sold during 7th (he even got a transition to fine cast), and is anything but "really old". Large parts of the current ork line are older than that model.
If anything, Kirby-GW intentionally dropped this model from their store to boost sales of the MA big mek.

So neither model is affected by the chapterhouse lawsuit.

FW models don't count as far as GW main studio is concerned so No you don't have a current GW model for warboss on bike.

Also GW's website only shows bigmek in mega armour with the forcefield hence why GW are saying it's a no model so legends rules only.

What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell. GK characters can be run as librarians, captins, chaplains, grandmasters in termintor armour, or even special characters, and no body seems to care that the only legal plastic character is voldus and draigo is metal or resin. All GW would have to need is change the name of the units, so they aren't identical or make them a gear option for the new models. With orcs most people wouldn't know what they have anyway.

ccs 779694 10558289 wrote:
Just remember, according to the experts, there's nothing really worthwhile putting in drop pods.

Oh that could be true. Ton of stuff that doesn't get used, seems to be very effective against my army. Was a big eye opener though. I never had a game end on turn 1, before I even started. Was kind of a strange, because I then had to wait outside of the store for 1 hour for my mom to pick me up.

Karol wrote:
What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell.

The Chapter House lawsuits.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Karol wrote:
What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell.

The Chapter House lawsuits.

But that is crazy, this means to have lets say a space marine character with one new weapons you have to have a whole new model. Can't just have a captin or chapter master with a list of stuff they can take. What are they losing if someone else makes a model for their game anyway, those that buy recasts don't buy GW models in the first place, unless it is to make casts of their own. If GW products are better looking and priced, then those of other companies, people that buy GW models won't be buying 3ed company stuff. Is it some obscure law thing, like the stuff with comics, where if they don't restart them every X years, they go in to free domain, and everyone can make them, no questions asked?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC

I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.

The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.

And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.

A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.

Right, because my Kustom made Warboss on Warbike that I made during 6th edition that I spent 12 hours on is broken and makes me WAAC for wanting to use him. And if they nerfed the units instead of disallowing them they would still be yelled at and made to look bad. Case and point, my 12 lovingly built and painted Killa Kanz that I can't use in a game because my opponents get bored of winning with ease.

Also, in regards to "unintended" no, it was not an unintended consequence, the unit has been included since at least 4th edition, GW knows its ability and how it functions in an Ork Army, but what they don't do is make a model for it, so therefore because of the chapterhouse nonsense, they Squatted it. Also, Bonebreakers advance D6 as far as I know, So that averages about 9' charge, 8 if you take Evil Sunz. So it has a good chance to get into CC, but not a great one. And if you don't get 1st turn OR if you are unlucky enough to not get your charge off then both your wartrike and bonebreaker are dead.

Finally, For the record, 3 Snakebite Bonebreakers will never do 21+ wounds to a Knight because simply put, 3 Bonebreakers will never ever get into CC with a Knight if your opponent is even remotely competent. 16 wounds is a lot, T8 is good. A 4+ save on a heavy vehicle isn't good. A knight can pulverize a Bonebreaker (depending on weapon loadout) from the back end of the table. So unless you are spending a ton of CP to deep strike those Wagonz, and your opponent doesn't put a screen around his knight, this scenario is almost never going to happen.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


No, its a hit to people who play the game as a.....game, you know, competitively. I don't know of anyone who actively plays to lose. But thanks for calling me WAAC

I'm not calling you strictly WAAC, but the action falls under that umbrella. I'm saying the index change is a nerf to people who would rather take a set of rules intended to break the very clear pattern GW has laid out to gain an advantage. An advantage that wasn't intended. The reactions to these changes are those of people receiving a nerf rather than some moral quandary of GW killing off models.

The reactions would be the same if index models stayed legal and they simply changed the rule on the datasheet - would they not? I take that back. People wouldn't complain as much, because it would be harder to make GW a villain.

And as things are so often overlooked in the quest for math-hammer and net listing people oft forget that the wartrike lets bonebreakas (and dreads / kans) run and charge, but no one takes those, because 'knights just kill everything'.

A wartrike and a bonebreaka (skip all the guns) can make combat turn 1 with extreme ease. For the record - 3 snakebite bonebreakas & monster hunter charging a knight is 21+ wounds.

Right, because my Kustom made Warboss on Warbike that I made during 6th edition that I spent 12 hours on is broken and makes me WAAC for wanting to use him. And if they nerfed the units instead of disallowing them they would still be yelled at and made to look bad. Case and point, my 12 lovingly built and painted Killa Kanz that I can't use in a game because my opponents get bored of winning with ease.

Also, in regards to "unintended" no, it was not an unintended consequence, the unit has been included since at least 4th edition, GW knows its ability and how it functions in an Ork Army, but what they don't do is make a model for it, so therefore because of the chapterhouse nonsense, they Squatted it. Also, Bonebreakers advance D6 as far as I know, So that averages about 9' charge, 8 if you take Evil Sunz. So it has a good chance to get into CC, but not a great one. And if you don't get 1st turn OR if you are unlucky enough to not get your charge off then both your wartrike and bonebreaker are dead.

Finally, For the record, 3 Snakebite Bonebreakers will never do 21+ wounds to a Knight because simply put, 3 Bonebreakers will never ever get into CC with a Knight if your opponent is even remotely competent. 16 wounds is a lot, T8 is good. A 4+ save on a heavy vehicle isn't good. A knight can pulverize a Bonebreaker (depending on weapon loadout) from the back end of the table. So unless you are spending a ton of CP to deep strike those Wagonz, and your opponent doesn't put a screen around his knight, this scenario is almost never going to happen.

On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.

BrianDavion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

captain on a bike is still in codex space marines.

Which, in itself, is a weird one. No model, yet it's made it out of the Index into TWO successive Codices. Find it really weird how inconsistently this supposed "rule" is applied.

I believe GW still sells a white scars conversion kit that technically means they sell a kit that meets their stupid definition post chapter house.

So much soul is being crushed out of the hobby due to that decision and come 9th edition, I believe GW will pretty much double down on 40k being a ccg/combohammer with stock plastic kits, with little to no reason to ever kitbash or convert any unit or option.

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".

Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.

IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.

GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.

Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".

Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.

IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.

GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.

Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.

This post makes me sad.

 Grimtuff wrote:

IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.

GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.

Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.

How else is it suppose to work though? You can't invent rules yourself, and making models with illegal set up of weapons seems stupid, won't be able to use the model as what you build it as, but you invested time and money in to it.

Is there a link to the legacy/legends rules or statement by GW? I can't seem to find this.

Reece from FLG was commentating on the GW nova stream at the weekend and was asked about Index/Legends and ITC.

His response was that they were still discussing but at the moment thinking is that LVO would be the last ITC event that legends/index are legal.

ScreamingMeeple wrote:
Reece from FLG was commentating on the GW nova stream at the weekend and was asked about Index/Legends and ITC.

His response was that they were still discussing but at the moment thinking is that LVO would be the last ITC event that legends/index are legal.

Not Online!!! wrote:


No it will not stop there.
That is a bet i'd make. And I don't bet.

Just waiting for the Tournament rules only pickup crowd to throw their weight around. And people wonder why certain parts of the community dislike the comp scene

AngryAngel80 wrote:Legends isn't really a hit to WAAC, Legends is really a hit to players who play tournament only type games. As their casual reference of " They'll recommend they not be in tournaments " is a kiss of death for some players.

Some, like me, couldn't care any less but for some what GW deems legal and not is the absolute end all be all of this game as it stands.

There might be a couple index options that are point for point better, but most are just simply niche flavor models or beloved old models. I don't think someone bringing rough riders is WAAC, and if they are thought of like that, god help us all.

It's sad that some people cannot think outside the box. I say all the time that playing 3k vs 1k is perfectly fine...as long as your opponent agrees to it. But some people are specifically trying to gain any minuscule advantage over another player, so if it is "legal" for their method of play (tourney/cutthroat) they will damn use it to the nth degree. Now that the "loopholes" they've been using are being closed, need to completely change how they do business. Chapterhouse is an additional reason but not the sole one.

My Librarian on bike will remain in my army forever and will continue to use them as well.