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 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Surely you all recognise that GW is a model company first and foremost. The lore is in service to the models, not the other way around.

That does not mean it cannot be critiqued. We can understand the reason something was made, and still find it poor at the same time.

 Ishagu wrote:

The classic range was truly and utterly completed and in many ways bloated. The lore that was established was also incredibly constrictive - new things can't be made, they have to be "ret-conned" into the story. It's what happened with Centurions, Stalkers, Storm-Talons and was incredibly unsatisfying and divisive.

The classic range remains unchanged, and primaris only add to any sort of "bloat" in the SM dex, not lessen it.

 Ishagu wrote:
You've all now had over TWO YEARS to get used to them. Either get on board or for the love of all thing stop whinging. Primaris are a massive success. GW profits are through the roof. I myself own a 4k fully painted Primaris army. Bringing up how you dislike them over and over and over again isn't going to change anything. People have voted with their money, and the results are in favour of Primaris.
Get on board or hold your peace. No need to whinge for years - just let the model company release more cool models and if you don't like Primaris collect a different army.

Welp, there's that needless hostility again.

In all the other topics around release were "give them a chance, they've only just gotten started, its a difference you're not used to yet, this is just the first models of the range they will obviously get cooler in time, etc etc". Well OP did just that. Was quiet on it and waited to see if how it settled with him. 2 years onwards he is articulating how he feels about it, and now you're telling him he missed his opportunity.


Maybe you're the one who should stop clicking on these threads if they give you such a strong, negative emotional reaction. That would seem like the smart action to take. People are allowed to express their feedback whether or not you agree with it.

He has to reply to them. GW won’t pay him otherwise. Obvious AstroTurf account is obvious.

.

Jesus, just accept that primaris lore is gak and the models mostly good.
(especially the guns, now these are boltguns i like)

Lore is fine. It's as good as anything that's come before. No more or less silly. Some people just don't like it because of the implication of the lore, not the quality of the lore itself.

People are scared about their old armies being forgotten so they dislike the new lore. GW have continued to support classic Astartes with great rules. Nothing lasts forever, that is another truth people need to accept.

 Ishagu wrote:
Lore is fine. It's as good as anything that's come before. No more or less silly. Some people just don't like it because of the implication of the lore, not the quality of the lore itself.

People are scared about their old armies being forgotten so they dislike the new lore. GW have continued to support classic Astartes with great rules. Nothing lasts forever, that is another truth people need to accept.

So scuse me but magic Wand lore is bad, and primaris got magic wanded in by Cawl.

As for the latter, "great rules" lmao, sincerly someone that sits on oldmarines in a box atm

40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

 Ishagu wrote:
40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

Booyyyyyy, did i state i don't enjoy them?

No need to get defensiv there lad, i stated their lore Implementation was gak.
That's it, just like 90% of alpha legion lore is gak.
And gw can and did do considerably better.

Also critique is a form of love.

I don't think the lore is "Gak"

You should elaborate more, lad. You don't have to like anything. Find something to spend time on that you do like!

Don't waste your time, lad.

 Ishagu wrote:
40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

Pimaris are a deus ex machina for the imperium, as I've said before. Those kind of things are often not well recieved, because they mostly present a sudden solution for a problem or a conflict that is not in concordance with the lore before its inception and often invalidates previous struggles and cornerstones of the lore.
Now saying this is fine because the setting has "space magic" and should not be taken seriously is frankly a bad argument, it's a non sequitur.

But there are lots of stories like this in 40k. There are so many gizmos or prophesies or convenient ways to solve problems. Horus Heresy is full of them.

I'm saying that this is nothing new, and to pick and chose which of the Deus Ex Machina plots you accept or don't accept is hypocrisy.

Are Primaris a solution though? From what I can tell they are only just holding the line like Marines were before - and by holding the line I mean that the whole Imperium hasn't fallen (even though they've lost loads of stuff).

Of course in any story setting based on a physical game you're not going to get factions die off. No one wants their army Squatted into nothing (just go ask Tombking or Bretonnia players) so of course the story will always contrive to be like a weekly episodic TV show. At the end of the event the factions will still be around only their relative power/influence adjusted a bit for a period of time.

Hopefully in 40 years from now Stella Prima Prime Marines will be around and Tyranids will and Eldar and Orks and Wagabobins (the new army from 2030)

I think the lore was indeed gak, especially initially. The Launch of AOS and Gathering Storm were the era when GW has produced some of it's most insane lore. AOS has greatly improved since then, and the writers are doing their best to do the same with 40K, though they're saddled with some really stupid concepts and developments. I really recommend everyone to read the new marine codex though. In it the Primaris are handled like they should have been from the get go. They're shown to be basically the same like the old marines we know and love. They're recruited in the same way, are part of the same chapter culture and progress through the roles and ranks in similar way. Sure, they have some new weapons and squad compositions and couple of extra organs, but essentially they're the same, only slightly updated.

Cawl's freezer marines was something that didn't need to happen. This whole thing could have been just new technology handed to the chapters (and that's indeed on what the focus is now.) Improving marines in itself is not that preposterous, Ad Mech has been trying to do it for several millennia, the Cursed Founding being the most well know example. It really isn't unbelievable at all that they would finally manage to get some of that stuff to actually function properly. But making it all to be a work of one ten-millennia-old* super genius made it cartoonish. And the initial wave of the Primaris being made on some lab on Mars, being trained differently and being delivered to the chapters en masse needlessly emphasised their differentness. It made them feel like outsider pretenders and I'm sure it soured many people's opinions on the them.

* (Seriously, who tough that was a good idea? It goes radically against what has been established on life extension in 40K before.)

Ishagu wrote:But there are lots of stories like this in 40k. There are so many gizmos or prophesies or convenient ways to solve problems. Horus Heresy is full of them.

I'm saying that this is nothing new, and to pick and chose which of the Deus Ex Machina plots you accept or don't accept is hypocrisy.

Fair enough. Now this is where what I say becomes only personal opinion again, but I think it is fair to say that the introduction of Primaris and how they were introduced affected the setting in a higher magnitude than other deus ex machina lore bits.
Let me give you an example: I remember the release of the 5th ed grey knights codex very vividly because it caused a lot of controversy back then. Players were generally happy with the new models (except the baby carrier), but the main controversy was how the lore was written and presented. One of the big examples was the first inception of kaldor draigo, who was just perfect in every way and could do stuff no other grey knight or any other character (save for maybe a primarch) could do(i.e. survive in the warp for ages without being killed by hordes of demons or in any other way affected over time). Now in the case of kaldor draigo they introduced kind of a mary sue character that was not quite well recieved for one faction.
This however did not impact the setting on a big scale. Which brings me to my point about the primaris: the imperium since the heresy has always been depicted as an insanely bureaucratic, fascistic, religiously zealous moloch, that was in a constant struggle to hold its galaxy wide territory together against all kinds of xenos, heretics and the big enemy. Technology since the heresy was never as good as old tech, and said old tech was often revered for how rare it was and because over time they gradually lost the knowledge to properly maintain their tech or even properly recreate it and if they managed to do it, they only could do it at a very slow pace.
Cue Belisarius Cawl, who was not only able to improve the gene augmentation process of creating a space marine, but was also able to create legions of them and equip them with entirely new tech. This represents quite a tonal shift to the setting as far as I am concerned and has wide implications for the imperium in its entirety and not just one faction.

The whole thing could have been handled with a lot more finesse in my opinion. Now like I've said in previous posts before, if primaris marines were introduced as their own thing, a decidedly smaller elite force with the purpose to reinforce the old chapters and not as a replacement to them, it would have made more sense. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there can't be a tonal shift in a setting and that the status quo had to be preserved at all costs, I am just saying it could have been handled with more finesse.
But like you said, the main focus here is to sell plastic models and therefore the story in this case appears to me more of an afterthought and so it comes as no surprise that many players had an issue with that. Because like it or not, for a great many people the underlying story of their plastic models matters.

It is the unrealistic acceptance that seems strange to me. But maybe it is the place I am from. One of my grand uncles brought new grain with him to Poland from the US. Sowed it on his field, got much better results per quintal then the local Kolchoz, and because he spend a lot of time in the US, he did the most stupid thing possible. Went to the director and told him, that he can sell him the grain that gives better yields. Was arrested, trailed and shot for spreading foreign propaganda, and the grain itself was burned on the field. They couldn't really control it, so a bit of fields that were his neighbours burned too. My family was not liked after that in the village, so my grandfather moved to old german territory to make a living there.

the intreduction of primaris should have went too folds. Firs tthere should be a full replacment. Non of those, we made calgar, tigurius etc in to primaris. They should be dead, and new stories and new heros should be brought in. Fluff wise there should be a civl war, because that is how an authoritarian sociaty reacts to sudden policy change. There are no soft resets, now talking over stuff, no I guess he is boss now. Change happens, and there are purges. And it doesn't even matter if the country is in a tough or even a war situation.

People have a protectionist attitude of 40k that needs to change. There is nothing objectively wrong with the story. The dislike comes from people scared that their armies might be replaces - the same people wanting some sort of lifetime guarantee of support. That is not something you can demand. As a result of this attitude they look for things to complain and pick apart.

Crimson is saying 40k has become more cartoonish. The whole of 40k is one giant cartoon if you start to pick at it. There are space vikings who howl at the moon and Green fungus aliens who dress like Pirates. The setting is awesome in a pulpy sci-fi way, and has inspiration from lots of things we love. It's not some masterwork of genius that has, up until this point, been a perfectly realistic story.

To criticise Primaris is to reveal your own personal bias and fears. As I said earlier, people have already had 24 months to get on board or to reject 40k. Make your mind up, don't just sit on the fence whinging like angry nerd.

You don't have to like them, but if you don't you've had two years of complaining and angst. Move on

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Actually, it is, quite often that happening. Saying any dislike for them is factually wrong bad think. I've literally said how I like the models, hate the fluff and really don't care for them overall. The pro side is so hyperbolic though it's like they can't handle if someone says they don't like them.

I'm just concerned, it seems we've reached a point where someone having a contrary opinion is just not acceptable anymore and deemed categorically negative/toxic. If that doesn't concern someone, maybe it should. I also know this isn't a new thing but its gotten pretty large as of late.

I never once said primaris lovers are bad, but I've seen countless bashes on those who dislike them. Comments as to how it somehow takes away someone elses fun when they even have to read how someone dislikes something they like. That, is a problem.

Fact is, if anyone can't handle people may dislike something you love, and make that opinion known at least as often as it's put out there, maybe online discussions should be avoided.

As if I got sad, mad, downed every time someone disagreed with me things would be quite bad, I might even tear up.

Oh and lets not forget the classic, don't love primaris you should leave the hobby,or don't like everything GW better get out. As well as arguments about if you like old marines you are just dumb and you can't as they are awful.

That's all pretty over the top. When someone is claiming there is no reason to hate them but every reason to love them I begin to think one side is a bit wild in their claims.

There is a big difference from saying "I don't like Primaris" to making loaded statements like "they're like Tau" or "they're not like Marines". It's those loaded statements people take issue with, not with people not liking something.

Apparently they are "Gak" and cartoon-ish.

I can definitely understand why a more sophisticated super solider with advanced armour is stupid when Fungal Space Pirates, Viking Ware-wolves and a Space Rambo are all the epitome of gritty realism and sophistication.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Lore is fine. It's as good as anything that's come before. No more or less silly. Some people just don't like it because of the implication of the lore, not the quality of the lore itself.

People are scared about their old armies being forgotten so they dislike the new lore. GW have continued to support classic Astartes with great rules. Nothing lasts forever, that is another truth people need to accept.

So scuse me but magic Wand lore is bad, and primaris got magic wanded in by Cawl.

As for the latter, "great rules" lmao, sincerly someone that sits on oldmarines in a box atm

It took 30 years to get Marines wherenwe are now. He'll even the Hotus Heresy started as nothing more than a throwaway line in Epic to give people's robots a reason to fight despite being identical.

They're already working to smooth stuff. I mean it looks like Cawl spent 10k years rolling out the stuff the Emperor left put of the original Astartes because of how rushed he was to finish the Great Crusade, and with his knowledge theft shown when he brain drains his mentor it's likely that Cawl has stolen a lot of what he knows too.

He's still a walking plot device to get things rolling but they are improving on that initial idea. Heck, Cawl's Primaris are the least flexible of all the Ptimaris due to only really being trained for the one role they serve and nothing else.

I won't say the lore is good, not yet at least, but ot is getting better.

Besides, it's no more silly than load bearing walls being heretical.

 Ishagu wrote:
People have a protectionist attitude of 40k that needs to change. There is nothing objectively wrong with the story. The dislike comes from people scared that their armies might be replaces - the same people wanting some sort of lifetime guarantee of support. That is not something you can demand. As a result of this attitude they look for things to complain and pick apart.

Part of it is that. Part of it is the recent developements going against the themes of the setting and the core elements of the story being puerile. But because you do not understand either the history of the setting nor literature in general, you do not see this.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
People have a protectionist attitude of 40k that needs to change. There is nothing objectively wrong with the story. The dislike comes from people scared that their armies might be replaces - the same people wanting some sort of lifetime guarantee of support. That is not something you can demand. As a result of this attitude they look for things to complain and pick apart.

Part of it is that. Part of it is the recent developements going against the themes of the setting and the core elements of the story being puerile. But because you do not understand either the history of the setting nor literature in general, you do not see this.

I'd disagree with them going against the themes of the setting. I mean a 200 year Crusade ended with Guilliman putting a "You Tried" gold star on it, the Imperium is still going to the Warp in a handbasket, and while the equipment is new, underneath that power armour is the same emotionally underdeveloped, psychoindoctrinated post human monster we call a Space Marine.

 Crimson wrote:
Part of it is that. Part of it is the recent developements going against the themes of the setting and the core elements of the story being puerile. But because you do not understand either the history of the setting nor literature in general, you do not see this.

I understand it a lot more than you do because I actively read the novels.

I have been involved with 40k since 1997 so you should not assume anything about by understanding or investment.

It is you who doesn't understand the setting or the lore. You've cherry picked things you like and don't like, and you refuse to accept that 40k has and always will have very unrealistic elements scattered around.
The Primaris lore is not a problem at all. You're just scared of what it represents.

 Ishagu wrote:
I understand it a lot more than you do because I actively read the novels.

I have bee invested on 40k since 1997 so you should not assume anything about by understanding or investment.

It is you who doesn't understand the setting. You've cherry picked things you like and don't like, and you refuse to accept that 40k has and always will have very unrealistic elements scattered around the lore.
The Primaris lore is not a problem at all. You're just scared of what it represents.

Ishagu, tone down the attitude, take a deep breath and then write your posts. You hardly help sell Primaris when they associate Primaris players with such a "holier-than-thou" approach.

Tiberias wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

Pimaris are a deus ex machina for the imperium, as I've said before.

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

It is not about being realistic. 40K is not realistic. It is about themes and the quality of narratives.

 Crimson wrote:
It is not about being realistic. 40K is not realistic. It is about themes and the quality of narratives.

There's nothing objectively wrong with the narrative.
The 40k themes are very much preserved too.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

Guilliman however almost literally is!

 Crimson wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

Guilliman however almost literally is!

You mean that long established character who's return has been hinted at and built up over years of lore?

Not Online!!! wrote:Jesus, just accept that primaris lore is gak and the models mostly good.

And this the problem - Primaris lore is gak, according to you, but that's certainly not a fact by any means.
Telling people to "accept" an opinion that they simply don't share is hardly conducive to an argument.

Not Online!!! wrote:i stated their lore Implementation was gak.
That's it, just like 90% of alpha legion lore is gak.

Which are both your opinions. That's cool and all, but calling for people to "accept" that as a kind of truth? Nah, not quite.
And gw can and did do considerably better.

Also critique is a form of love.

So's obsession, but as with critique, excess of either is overwhelming. I don't think the deluge of "I hate Primaris!!!" threads is as loving as you think, and certainly comes across closer to toxic.

Tiberias wrote:This however did not impact the setting on a big scale. Which brings me to my point about the primaris: the imperium since the heresy has always been depicted as an insanely bureaucratic, fascistic, religiously zealous moloch, that was in a constant struggle to hold its galaxy wide territory together against all kinds of xenos, heretics and the big enemy. Technology since the heresy was never as good as old tech, and said old tech was often revered for how rare it was and because over time they gradually lost the knowledge to properly maintain their tech or even properly recreate it and if they managed to do it, they only could do it at a very slow pace.

But this is still the same. Even with Guilliman, the Imperium is still a theocratic, totalitarian, xenophobic regime as it always has been.
They've lost half the galaxy, and the half they do have is even more hard pressed. The Indomitus Crusade was successful in that it stopped the remaining half of the Imperium falling too, but it's not like it fixed everything. Their tech is still based on what are conceivably technologies in the Imperium (I mean, have you read how the Repulsor hovers? It's even more rudimentary than the Custodes skimmers, which aren't near Eldar tier), and I think that 10,000 years is an acceptable length of time for the Primaris project. I mean, it's not like Cawl just showed up in universe and magically created them. He's been working for 10,000 years to create a slightly better version of Astartes, and has had a direct missive from the highest authority in the Imperium to get it done. Considering that many people have said that Fabius Bile should have been the one to make Primaris (with less tech and resources than Cawl, might I add), I don't think it's because it couldn't have been done in-universe - it's just because we've never heard of Cawl before. As with everything though, more exposure to Cawl will normalise him.

If primaris marines were introduced as their own thing, a decidedly smaller elite force with the purpose to reinforce the old chapters and not as a replacement to them, it would have made more sense.

Which is what they are? They're not replacing anything or anyone else right now. And in all of GW's publicity, they've made it clear they're supplementary, not a replacement.

the story in this case appears to me more of an afterthought and so it comes as no surprise that many players had an issue with that. Because like it or not, for a great many people the underlying story of their plastic models matters.

Which is fair enough, but in the same vein, many people also say that there's no issue with the new story, and it's completely rational and doesn't detract from the setting. It's not as if everyone who likes Primaris is ignorant of the lore.

Karol wrote:Fluff wise there should be a civl war, because that is how an authoritarian sociaty reacts to sudden policy change. There are no soft resets, now talking over stuff, no I guess he is boss now. Change happens, and there are purges. And it doesn't even matter if the country is in a tough or even a war situation.

However, there are no nations on earth quite like the Imperium. The Imperium is pretty much based on the idea of worship of the Emperor, and the Primarchs and Astartes as his chief lieutenants. So while some of the HLOT might be jealous of Guilliman's new power, to the people, it's as if Jesus or an archangel came down to them - and good luck getting support when you're trying to rebel against one of the most prominent members of your empire's pantheon.

Plus, we have had purges. Guilliman deposed and removed several incompetent members of the Administratum and other leadership positions.

So, here is my fluff problem with the primaris, maybe someone can help me.

So Big E creates the Custodes, who were sort of his First Born. They were with him before even the Thunder warriors.

Then he creates the Thunder warriors. Then he kills them and makes the Space Marines.

Then Cawl, who is not supposed to be, but kinda is I guess, smarter than the Emperor, takes the old Space Marine, improves it, and radically enhances the technology.

Isn't the Space Marine supposed to be the Pinnacle of the Emperors Gene Augmentation knowledge? The Custodes are his finest creations, then the Primarchs, then the Space Marines.

Did Cawl just 1up the Emperor and make Primarch level superhumans? It's the same problem with DBZ. Where do people rank the power levels, because it's getting confusing. The Lore uses objectively final words like "perfect" or "Unmatched" or "Greatest of his creations". The lore can't then say, we made something even PERFECTER.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

Guilliman however almost literally is!

You mean that long established character who's return has been hinted at and built up over years of lore?

Ah yes, the man who nearly died and was stuck in stasis but may or may not have been healing depending on how faithful you are. How very built up that was.

Why is Cawl smarter than the Emperor? It took him 10 thousand years to improve on something the Emperor created as back up plan in no time.

That's how Science works. A visionary creates something, then later on people improve on it.

The Space Marines were NEVER the pinnacle of the Emperor's work. By asking that you're showing fundamental lack of lore understanding.
The Space Marines were a cobbled together back-up plan after the Primarchs were kidnapped by the Ruinous Powers.

How can you even ask that when Custodes exist? Custodes are better than Astartes. Primarchs are better than Custodes. If Cawl made a better Primarch I would raise an eyebrow.