Platuan4th wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
40k literally has space magic. If you take it so seriously that it impacts your enjoyment you need to re-evaluate.

Lots of lore and stories are amazing, but many of them are full of logic holes and convenient plot devices.

Pimaris are a deus ex machina for the imperium, as I've said before.

Then you need to re-examine what that term means, because no, they're not by any definition of Deus ex Machina.

Please elaborate.
.

A Deus ex Machina is something that arrives from outside the narrative to resolve the plot. A relatively modern example comes from Texas Chainsaw Massacre 4, wherein a prop plane shows up, flies low, and saves Reese Witherspoon by killing Matthew Unspellable Last Name with the prop then flying off. No introduction, no explanation, plot finished.

Not only are Primaris not arriving from outside the narrative (in fact being rolled out in the 150 years of story between Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium), they most definitely have not resolved the plot.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
In your opinion.

I find it funny that you think Marines are a joke but you have no problem with Fungal Space Pirates, Space Magic, and Space Viking Ware-Wolves.

I hate what space Viking ware-wolves have become, And its why i tend to leave it to within there own setting. Space magic is hardly that crazy a concept, and if the setting has rules and can support itself then that can be just fine within story telling.

Even with magic settings, consistency within its own setting is important. Even the best wont be perfect, But the less you push those boundary the less players have to ignore inconsistency.

Space Viking Werewolves was a thing long before Skyrim did Viking Werewolves. It's been hinted for years that there are no wolves on Fenris (and said wolves are actually humans mutated too far by whatever it is humanity did to their genetic code to adapt more to the planets they colonized (which might explain why Catachan natives look like bodybuilders: it's what the adaptation they gained to survive on their planet) and that causes the Wulfen mutation (and Thunderwolves may be the Space Wolves who go out for their final test and don't come back). The execution of the Wulfen is a bit naff (I think the t-poses are a big part of it since it feels less savage and more ballet) but the lore for them has been around for ages.

I can dislike a lot of that going back a long time, At a certen point the no wolves on fenris can just be dumb. The space wolves just forgot they could import wolves if they want them. Or there extinct, maybe they made them from other things. And where did Skyrim come into this Its not even the first thing with viking ware-wolves. Not even the first ware-wolves in the setting itself.

Skyrim tends to get a lot of credit for the "viking werewolf" idea, but 40k has been doing it for ages. Blood Angels were Space Vampires and Space Wolves were Viking Werewolves in Space as far back as I remember (though the "Blood X" and "Wolf X" stuff got really silly in 5th).

 Ishagu wrote:
To anyone getting upset or thinking I'm rude. I certainly won't be saying what I'm saying if you added something like: "in my opinion" to your posts, rather than:

"Lore is crap" "Marines are a joke" etc, etc

Remember, people can like or dislike anything. It's subjective. The current lore is not objectively bad or out of line with the setting, but some people may not like it. That's perfectly fine.

 Ishagu wrote:

Corax has transformed into a living Shadow and he battled Dameon Lorgar on Lorgar's own Daemon world, and easily defeated him. He also slaughtered thousands of Word Bearers and has vowed to hunt Lorgar down, now that he has his scent.

Vulkan returned to the Imperium about 1500? years after the Heresy to lead the Imperial Forces against the Ork Waaagh of the Beast. As a perpetual he cannot die and will likely be back again.

Trazyn the Infinte also has a perfect, un-corrupted clone of Fulgrim locked up in Stasis that has all the memories of the original. The clone is not happy with his original self! Has all the same gifts, abilities, super charisma and combat prowess. Perhaps Cawl can strike a deal with Trazyn, the two have history.

Also, some further lore: Guilliman does not need his suit to live, although the first time he took it off he was in great agony. Has body has finally defeated the poison and the only wounds are spiritual (But he does not want to admit it, even to himself).

Tiberias wrote:
I am sorry but come on, they definitely appeared out of nowhere and they did not resolve the plot in the same way as your movie example, because 40k is not a movie. They however punched out the blood angels at devastation of baal and along with guilliman lifted the demon invasion on terra, so yeah I stand by my assessment.

 Ishagu wrote:
Primarchs becoming more than Myth was a product of fleshing out the Horus Heresy.

Apple fox wrote:
It should not mean they should have gone more into it, there was a lot that could have been done far better and i think at least for what i have been able to observe. Space wolves have lost a lot of support for there take on it. Blood angels i think have at least not been so badly present. (trying to push my point without being so frustrated, I am tired.)

Also i actuly rarely see people think of skyrim as the first iteration of Viking warewolf. Even in the Eldar scrolls community i not sure i have seen it come up that often like that. Its more often taken as a sorta given, both considering the history of the setting and how well it sorta worked.

Also, Everything here has been worded as opinion. It probably should be taken as such that anything said under the topic of My take on the direction GW is taking, is probably opinion. It should not be needed to be stated in such a way.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Primarchs becoming more than Myth was a product of fleshing out the Horus Heresy.

Certainly true, and that's why BL's HH was one of the worst things that has ever happened to the setting. Though of course now Gathering Storm has it beat. At least the HH books didn't directly affect the 40K and could be safely ignored.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Primarchs becoming more than Myth was a product of fleshing out the Horus Heresy.

Certainly true, and that's why BL's HH was one of the worst things that has ever happened to the setting. Though of course now Gathering Storm has it beat. At least the HH books didn't directly affect the 40K and could be safely ignored.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
I am sorry but come on, they definitely appeared out of nowhere and they did not resolve the plot in the same way as your movie example, because 40k is not a movie. They however punched out the blood angels at devastation of baal and along with guilliman lifted the demon invasion on terra, so yeah I stand by my assessment.

The daemon invasion was overturned by Terran forces who then met Guilliman on Luna (also go read Watchers of the Throne, it's really good). Blood Angels got bailed out by Khorne as part of the Devastation of Baal storyline (possibly as a plot to try and pull them over to Khorne finally by showing them how much more powerful they'd be under the Blood God).

So your assessment is pretty bad.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

And yet the Horus Heresy is some of the best selling work GW has ever produced, and for a while the Horus Heresy game was going so strong that the main studio made plastic kits for MkIII and MkIV armour as well as Cataphrachii Terminators. So your dislike of the setting doesn't carry over to the larger community it seems.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
It should not mean they should have gone more into it, there was a lot that could have been done far better and i think at least for what i have been able to observe. Space wolves have lost a lot of support for there take on it. Blood angels i think have at least not been so badly present. (trying to push my point without being so frustrated, I am tired.)

Also i actuly rarely see people think of skyrim as the first iteration of Viking warewolf. Even in the Eldar scrolls community i not sure i have seen it come up that often like that. Its more often taken as a sorta given, both considering the history of the setting and how well it sorta worked.

Also, Everything here has been worded as opinion. It probably should be taken as such that anything said under the topic of My take on the direction GW is taking, is probably opinion. It should not be needed to be stated in such a way.

I won't deny there are bits of the lore that are basically poorly written (some of it just needs an editor to push the writers harder, other stuff was a bad idea from the get go), but I feel the Primaris rollout is one of those things that is going to get better as we go, with a lot of stuff cleaned up and made better.

Tiberias wrote:

I've read watchers on the throne, and I stand corrected the custodes and terran forces defeated the khornate forces and then met guilliman, I remembered that wrong. The blood angels however were not saved by the khorne demons, they would have still died to the tyranids if guilliman and his primaris had not come. So yeah, the primaris still fit the criteria for a deus ex machina in my book.

 Crimson wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

I've read watchers on the throne, and I stand corrected the custodes and terran forces defeated the khornate forces and then met guilliman, I remembered that wrong. The blood angels however were not saved by the khorne demons, they would have still died to the tyranids if guilliman and his primaris had not come. So yeah, the primaris still fit the criteria for a deus ex machina in my book.

I mean Cawl (of whom we had never heard of before this mess) conveniently had a legion of übermarines in his freezer to swiftly deploy at the time of need. It is certainly quite deus ex machiney. Primaris do not necessarily need to be that, but given how they were originally presented makes such an assertion pretty fair.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Actually, it is, quite often that happening. Saying any dislike for them is factually wrong bad think. I've literally said how I like the models, hate the fluff and really don't care for them overall. The pro side is so hyperbolic though it's like they can't handle if someone says they don't like them.

I'm just concerned, it seems we've reached a point where someone having a contrary opinion is just not acceptable anymore and deemed categorically negative/toxic. If that doesn't concern someone, maybe it should. I also know this isn't a new thing but its gotten pretty large as of late.

I never once said primaris lovers are bad, but I've seen countless bashes on those who dislike them. Comments as to how it somehow takes away someone elses fun when they even have to read how someone dislikes something they like. That, is a problem.

Fact is, if anyone can't handle people may dislike something you love, and make that opinion known at least as often as it's put out there, maybe online discussions should be avoided.

As if I got sad, mad, downed every time someone disagreed with me things would be quite bad, I might even tear up.

Oh and lets not forget the classic, don't love primaris you should leave the hobby,or don't like everything GW better get out. As well as arguments about if you like old marines you are just dumb and you can't as they are awful.

That's all pretty over the top. When someone is claiming there is no reason to hate them but every reason to love them I begin to think one side is a bit wild in their claims.

There is a big difference from saying "I don't like Primaris" to making loaded statements like "they're like Tau" or "they're not like Marines". It's those loaded statements people take issue with, not with people not liking something.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Actually, it is, quite often that happening. Saying any dislike for them is factually wrong bad think. I've literally said how I like the models, hate the fluff and really don't care for them overall. The pro side is so hyperbolic though it's like they can't handle if someone says they don't like them.

I'm just concerned, it seems we've reached a point where someone having a contrary opinion is just not acceptable anymore and deemed categorically negative/toxic. If that doesn't concern someone, maybe it should. I also know this isn't a new thing but its gotten pretty large as of late.

I never once said primaris lovers are bad, but I've seen countless bashes on those who dislike them. Comments as to how it somehow takes away someone elses fun when they even have to read how someone dislikes something they like. That, is a problem.

Fact is, if anyone can't handle people may dislike something you love, and make that opinion known at least as often as it's put out there, maybe online discussions should be avoided.

As if I got sad, mad, downed every time someone disagreed with me things would be quite bad, I might even tear up.

Oh and lets not forget the classic, don't love primaris you should leave the hobby,or don't like everything GW better get out. As well as arguments about if you like old marines you are just dumb and you can't as they are awful.

That's all pretty over the top. When someone is claiming there is no reason to hate them but every reason to love them I begin to think one side is a bit wild in their claims.

There is a big difference from saying "I don't like Primaris" to making loaded statements like "they're like Tau" or "they're not like Marines". It's those loaded statements people take issue with, not with people not liking something.

Many Primaris have more Tau-like qualities than classic marines. Flying tanks, jump pack troopers with guns instead of cc weapons, suits of armor with dual-weilded guns, more techy details, etc.

These are observations, not opinions.

 Thargrim wrote:
I started disliking new lore around the time necrons were revamped into space tomb kings. And then things continued to get worse from there. I definitely think the initial Dawn of War era is my idea of iconic 40k. Things feel different now, on one hand we are getting things I despise like primaris, primarchs returning etc. But on the other hand we are getting aeronautica imperialis and other stuff like sisters of battle which distinctly capture the feel I had been looking for.

Breng77 wrote:

@Insectum

SO then they are also like Eldar? Because Flying tanks, Jump pack troopers with guns, techy details?

I mean regular marines have lightly armored infiltrating troops, stationary heavy weapons teams, suits of armor with dual-weilded guns, bulky front heavy flyers....

seem like they are comparatively just as Tau like if we want to use those descriptions.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Actually, it is, quite often that happening. Saying any dislike for them is factually wrong bad think. I've literally said how I like the models, hate the fluff and really don't care for them overall. The pro side is so hyperbolic though it's like they can't handle if someone says they don't like them.

I'm just concerned, it seems we've reached a point where someone having a contrary opinion is just not acceptable anymore and deemed categorically negative/toxic. If that doesn't concern someone, maybe it should. I also know this isn't a new thing but its gotten pretty large as of late.

I never once said primaris lovers are bad, but I've seen countless bashes on those who dislike them. Comments as to how it somehow takes away someone elses fun when they even have to read how someone dislikes something they like. That, is a problem.

Fact is, if anyone can't handle people may dislike something you love, and make that opinion known at least as often as it's put out there, maybe online discussions should be avoided.

As if I got sad, mad, downed every time someone disagreed with me things would be quite bad, I might even tear up.

Oh and lets not forget the classic, don't love primaris you should leave the hobby,or don't like everything GW better get out. As well as arguments about if you like old marines you are just dumb and you can't as they are awful.

That's all pretty over the top. When someone is claiming there is no reason to hate them but every reason to love them I begin to think one side is a bit wild in their claims.

There is a big difference from saying "I don't like Primaris" to making loaded statements like "they're like Tau" or "they're not like Marines". It's those loaded statements people take issue with, not with people not liking something.

Many Primaris have more Tau-like qualities than classic marines. Flying tanks, jump pack troopers with guns instead of cc weapons, suits of armor with dual-weilded guns, more techy details, etc.

These are observations, not opinions.

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

@Insectum

SO then they are also like Eldar? Because Flying tanks, Jump pack troopers with guns, techy details?

I mean regular marines have lightly armored infiltrating troops, stationary heavy weapons teams, suits of armor with dual-weilded guns, bulky front heavy flyers....

seem like they are comparatively just as Tau like if we want to use those descriptions.

Yes, there are aspects of Primaris that are more Eldarish as well, such as the fixed-role units, but the 'look' leans more tau-like, with the chunky suits and 'anime fins'.

Overread wrote:Are Primaris a solution though? From what I can tell they are only just holding the line like Marines were before - and by holding the line I mean that the whole Imperium hasn't fallen (even though they've lost loads of stuff).

Of course in any story setting based on a physical game you're not going to get factions die off. No one wants their army Squatted into nothing (just go ask Tombking or Bretonnia players) so of course the story will always contrive to be like a weekly episodic TV show. At the end of the event the factions will still be around only their relative power/influence adjusted a bit for a period of time.

 ClockworkZion wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inceptors lack the organic curves the Tau tanks do, nor do they have wings on the front (for drone storage) or the more triangle shaped body with a wide back that tapers going forward.

Marine vehicles are bricks.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inceptors lack the organic curves the Tau tanks do, nor do they have wings on the front (for drone storage) or the more triangle shaped body with a wide back that tapers going forward.

Marine vehicles are bricks.

And just as I predicted people are misconstruing what is being said...

It is NOT a 1:1 comparison. The Tau tanks are bricks, just like the Primaris ones. There might be some superficial differences but this is NOT what is being noted. You can pick apart the little differences but the big sames are right there for all to see.

GW has a thing called Design Vocabularies (it's in the October 2016 WD in the interview with Jes Goodwin, ironically enough. (Yes, I finally remembered what is was called)). To me, and Insectum the Primaris range in places bleeds too much into the Tau's design vocabularies. It does not mean it is a 1:1 match.

 Vankraken wrote:
The Primaris tanks don't look very Tau like but it does break away from the IoM's crude design by slapping sci fi grav tech on it. That said the plasma cannon on the Primaris Dread is immersion breaking with how much it looks like Tau tech.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
I am sorry but come on, they definitely appeared out of nowhere and they did not resolve the plot in the same way as your movie example, because 40k is not a movie. They however punched out the blood angels at devastation of baal and along with guilliman lifted the demon invasion on terra, so yeah I stand by my assessment.

The daemon invasion was overturned by Terran forces who then met Guilliman on Luna (also go read Watchers of the Throne, it's really good). Blood Angels got bailed out by Khorne as part of the Devastation of Baal storyline (possibly as a plot to try and pull them over to Khorne finally by showing them how much more powerful they'd be under the Blood God).

So your assessment is pretty bad.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

@Insectum

SO then they are also like Eldar? Because Flying tanks, Jump pack troopers with guns, techy details?

I mean regular marines have lightly armored infiltrating troops, stationary heavy weapons teams, suits of armor with dual-weilded guns, bulky front heavy flyers....

seem like they are comparatively just as Tau like if we want to use those descriptions.

Yes, there are aspects of Primaris that are more Eldarish as well, such as the fixed-role units, but the 'look' leans more tau-like, with the chunky suits and 'anime fins'.

Are you talking about the Grav Chute fins? The same Grav Chute fins we had on Guard models years ago?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Inceptors lack the organic curves the Tau tanks do, nor do they have wings on the front (for drone storage) or the more triangle shaped body with a wide back that tapers going forward.

Marine vehicles are bricks.