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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Over in the B&C BT thread there was mention of a BT Relic that let one unit within 6" of the bearer count as being in Assault Doctrine for the turn.

In the end a lot hinges on what the buff in that doctrine actually does though.

ohh agreed. I could see each Black templar unit getting an additional +1 attack, that'd be insanely potent (to the point of making them one of the best marine assault armies) without rendering white scars pointless. Black templars would be better in assault vs chaff. white scars would be better against tougher units (as benifits hunters)(

Or melee rerolls without having to be near characters. That's been the case before, after all.

If you're lucky you'll also get a single revised plastic character and a bunch of old Necron kits shoved in an expensive box...but you might at least get some rules buffs. Oddly the "Psychic Awakening" provided almost jack gak for Eldar (a third incredibly pointless list of six spells). I don't think the Psychic portion of the title means anything, so that's good news for Tau and Necrons.

"Jack gak"? Is that yet another new term the net has created to obfusciate commicantion and impair understanding? I am not being snarky. I gather it's negative.

 Elbows wrote:
If you're lucky you'll also get a single revised plastic character and a bunch of old Necron kits shoved in an expensive box...but you might at least get some rules buffs. Oddly the "Psychic Awakening" provided almost jack gak for Eldar (a third incredibly pointless list of six spells). I don't think the Psychic portion of the title means anything, so that's good news for Tau and Necrons.

People tried to make this point from the outset. GW themselves did.

"Psychic Awakening" refers to the events, as a whole. It's not tied specifically to the factions getting stuff.

 Sobekta wrote:
"Jack gak"? Is that yet another new term the net has created to obfusciate commicantion and impair understanding? I am not being snarky. I gather it's negative.

It's the forum language filter.

I wish Imperial Fists has a "Count as Devastator Doctrine" strat. It would help immensely.

Black Templars being able to grab units and make them stay in CC is really cool and thematic. I hope there is more stuff like that for other units (Blood Angels and Word Bearers would make sense to have something like that).

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the scythes thing was simply GSC infiltration of their human support staff, which is yes a weak link in their chain.

Except there is still screening of Serfs, and they also say that the Chapter's Marines were infected by the Genestealer's Kiss.

While unlikely, it is still possible.

How an AVATAR can merge with a patriarch is beyond me....

Infect a Pheonix Lord who is sacrficed and the psychic taint infests the Avatar's form?

Phoenix Lord's don't get sacrificed.

Also, if avatars were vulnerable that way, then I expect daemons would be as well.


In any case, infecting space marines would be a dead end since they don't have kids. And samples of the chapter's geneseed regularly get sent off for screening, making it likely that they'd quickly get discovered.

Unless Chapters go silent and stop sending off samples to be examined because they are almost destroyed and don’t have any to spare, and started actively using their now tainted Geneseed.

Which it’s revealed is exact what was happening, and is no explained as why in the previous Scythes of Emperor novels

Spoiler:

the 3rd Company Captain left the Chapter Master to die and later killed the Chief Apothecary. Because they knew the geneseed had been corrupted and kept using it.

Well I’ve spoilered it for anyone else but thanks for I guess ruining those books..

honestly, that's the B plot.

Oh boy 230$ Eldar boxset then we get another box set that costs over 200$.... see over 100$ was pushing it now it is getting crazy pricey.

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly, that's the B plot.

Though it does provide a glimpse at the future of 40k.

With all these releases coming out, the only thing that I can say, being a Deathwatch player is...

Well, at least some of this can be converted to Deathwatch Captains/Sergeants.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
With all these releases coming out, the only thing that I can say, being a Deathwatch player is...

Well, at least some of this can be converted to Deathwatch Captains/Sergeants.

I expect death watch will see some love soon re Phobos stuff, These troops are MADE for death watch.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
With all these releases coming out, the only thing that I can say, being a Deathwatch player is...

Well, at least some of this can be converted to Deathwatch Captains/Sergeants.

I expect death watch will see some love soon re Phobos stuff, These troops are MADE for death watch.

Not sure how they'd NOT use those guys.

If all else fails, I will just do a "Deathwatch" in name only detachment of Vanguard Phobos guys. Not sure whose chapter tactics to take.

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly, that's the B plot.

Seriously, actual friggen spoilers


Why the heck are Black Templar getting super chapter stuff and yet chaos marines traits don't get the same treatment? From the sound of it Black Templar are gonna get a ton of buffs and the chaos legions, who are known to need love too, are gonna be left high and dry comparitively? Yeah they get some warlord traits and stuff but how does that in any way compare to the craziness someone like Iron Hands got? I mean hell, Iron Hands get essentially 3 chapter traits in one compared to old books. If they were in a different book that makes sense, but they're in the same book as BT, that seems really odd.

Oh well, I went ahead and put in my black Templar order ahead of time to beat the rush, but I'm sure I've jynxed BT to be nothing but a half-hearted retcon saying a chapter of religious nutjobs is totally ok with Primaris, just like going through eldar webways and how they totally love pyskers

I just hope they leave the old units alone. If they remove crusader squads, or worse make them Primaris only, it's gonna suck. Some of these rumored rules sound cool/crazy though. BT charging out of deepstrike with +1 to charge and rerolls with being almost impossible to fallback from is gonna hurt. Vanguard vets, terminators, drop pods, etc are all gonna hurt on the way in. Also anything that benefits landraiders is a win in my book. I don't expect the chapter trait to add something like +1 attack but given the BS ironhands got I wouldn't be surprised if BT got some crazy rules

Because you can twist the knife farther if you continue to neglect the Legions in the same book you supercharge another Marine subfaction.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Why the heck are Black Templar getting super chapter stuff and yet chaos marines traits don't get the same treatment? From the sound of it Black Templar are gonna get a ton of buffs and the chaos legions, who are known to need love too, are gonna be left high and dry comparitively? Yeah they get some warlord traits and stuff but how does that in any way compare to the craziness someone like Iron Hands got? I mean hell, Iron Hands get essentially 3 chapter traits in one compared to old books. If they were in a different book that makes sense, but they're in the same book as BT, that seems really odd.

To be fair, Black Templars' actual Chapter kit is so old, the torsos aren't even compatible with the newer marines- it's made for the torsos from like, 2002. You gotta chop on them to get them to match up. This is a Chapter that hasn't seen a damned thing in almost 20 years. At all. At least with CSM you can get some cosmetic upgrades from Forge World. As far as rules go, well... let's just say BT's aren't the most effective and haven't been for a long time. They, before literally ANY Chapter of the Space Marines, were LONG overdue for something.

Now, don't get me wrong- I'd like to see some actual Legion stuff for CSM. Some upgrade kits and whatnot for the current era, rather than the Heresy.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I just hope they leave the old units alone. If they remove crusader squads, or worse make them Primaris only, it's gonna suck. Some of these rumored rules sound cool/crazy though. BT charging out of deepstrike with +1 to charge and rerolls with being almost impossible to fallback from is gonna hurt. Vanguard vets, terminators, drop pods, etc are all gonna hurt on the way in. Also anything that benefits landraiders is a win in my book. I don't expect the chapter trait to add something like +1 attack but given the BS ironhands got I wouldn't be surprised if BT got some crazy rules

I predict in a few years, the 'old units' and 'new units' will be little more than a stat line difference. Eventually, it'll all be the same "Space Marines" and the word "Primaris" will be used less, and since a lot of the kits are interchangeable, you'll see 2-wound Space Marines with Heavy Bolters and Jump Packs.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Why the heck are Black Templar getting super chapter stuff and yet chaos marines traits don't get the same treatment? From the sound of it Black Templar are gonna get a ton of buffs and the chaos legions, who are known to need love too, are gonna be left high and dry comparitively? Yeah they get some warlord traits and stuff but how does that in any way compare to the craziness someone like Iron Hands got? I mean hell, Iron Hands get essentially 3 chapter traits in one compared to old books. If they were in a different book that makes sense, but they're in the same book as BT, that seems really odd.

To be fair, Black Templars' actual Chapter kit is so old, the torsos aren't even compatible with the newer marines- it's made for the torsos from like, 2002. You gotta chop on them to get them to match up. This is a Chapter that hasn't seen a damned thing in almost 20 years. At all. At least with CSM you can get some cosmetic upgrades from Forge World. As far as rules go, well... let's just say BT's aren't the most effective and haven't been for a long time. They, before literally ANY Chapter of the Space Marines, were LONG overdue for something.

Now, don't get me wrong- I'd like to see some actual Legion stuff for CSM. Some upgrade kits and whatnot for the current era, rather than the Heresy.

This is a good point, Black Templars haven't really gotten anything since the early 2000s, so if there is any group of marines that need something, they are certainly towards the top of the list. They also are functionally different enough to actually need a different list than most marines, with mixed crusader Squads, and all their religious fervor stuff. Functionally they are a lot different than the codex marines than most of the non-codex chapters (BA, DA, SW- at least before SW became a literal joke chapter).

Some Legion upgrades that's are current era would be awesome, and wouldn't require a ton of work from GW. This campaign includes Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children? Put out an upgrade blister for Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors wouldn't be a huge release or anything. I didn't mention World Eaters and Emperor's Children, because I'm hoping they get their own Berserker and Noise Marine kits relatively soon.

I mean we still have relatively.... all the phoenix lords, all the aspects, and almost the entire eldar range that still needs to be update namely the wave serpents, falcons, and eldar rangers that haven't been updated since 3rd edition...

Though honestly with how things are looking it will probably be wrapped into a box for 250$ and we will only get 2 new units per release.

Black templars definately need a rerelease and hopefully better codex rules, and a better representation, as it is currently we have no idea what they are going to do with em, as they were the face of 3rd edition it is sad that it has taken 5 editions for them to get new upgrades, a new character, and new models... And hopefully we will see Primaris Crusader squads and not this regular stupid stuff of them reusing the same primaris units over and over again.... I don't see for example black templars utilizing vanguard units like other chapters it makes no sense to their character or their archetype, they are crusading knights in space not special forces. If anything vanguard should vary chapter to chapter to the point some vanguard or primaris units aren't even utilized in the slightest.

But we will see if anything it will be the same as all the other supplements with no difference in units and saying "just use the regular primaris units" which honestly takes 0 creative energy.

Given the way the supplements have worked I'm not too worried about Black Templars. They'll proably come out pretty beastly.

BrianDavion wrote:
Given the way the supplements have worked I'm not too worried about Black Templars. They'll proably come out pretty beastly.

Why is it a Loyalist only paradigm? I honestly can't get my head around this.

It initially seemed to me to be a new epoch in faction rules but the PA books I hoped they were using to get everyone on this new page seem to be mailed in for non Loyalist factions.

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Given the way the supplements have worked I'm not too worried about Black Templars. They'll proably come out pretty beastly.

Why is it a Loyalist only paradigm? I honestly can't gey my head around this.

It initially seemed to me to be a new epoch in faction rules but the PA books I hoped they were using to get everyone on this new page seem to be mailed in for non Loyalist factions.

.... because Black Templars are in codex space marines and have been long rumored to be getting something equivilant to the supplements in PA.

Bully for you guys?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:
The very concept of being able to get units stuck into CQC and deny a fallback is actually really cool.

Bring on the crusade!!!!!

It's incredibly strong and is an ability that should be given to more cc factions.

I have to agree, or at least a CC equivalent to overwatch when an enemy unit falls back. You shouldn't be able to fall back with nothing but a -1 to hit penalty or not being able to shoot next round.

Jacob29 wrote:
In the context of the current discussion.

I don't particularly feel sorry for the likes of Tau... Guard... Nids.. Necrons.

Yeah, you haven't had a release in a while.. but your model line is already pretty good.

You have a full range of plastics easily available. No real core issues with your line. What can they even do for Guard that isn't just a brand new thing that they don't exactly need but would be nice?


Meanwhile we have Eldar where a very large part of their army is resin. Dark Eldar also have similar issues, and are both missing flexible HQ like the SM Captain or Tau Commander.

Orks who still don't have a proper Warboss with options either. Plenty of resin hanging around, no Deffkopta model that isn't from 1990s, even though they do have a sculpt for it...

So sorry.. but I don't really care about Guard players moaning about lack of releases either.

Maybe you've missed the fight but I did bring Dark Eldar in there as well. As for Guard stuff, you are aware some of our kits are absolutely ancient, some have been dropped and didn't even get to finecrap so yeah we have things we could get. Like our rough riders back, for instance would be great. The Bassie kit actually redone with maybe a dual kit or tri kit design to get back some more of our lost options. That isn't even touching on the fact that people have wanted some new guard core infantry for a long time.

Eldar have it bad, I've been one of the vocal ones saying they need to get touched on. My point is, if you say guard don't need anything, then marines should actually not get anything for a long time by that same logic. All they do is keep growing and growing and growing. I even have marine armies but having other armies with more nuance get neglected for things seemingly for years and years on end, well it sucks.

Honestly the only people thinking guard don't need some attention are those who don't play them/dislike them, and I'm not even one saying they need an overhaul, just a couple things and I'd say aside from working on making some options and actual choice they'd be in a good spot. However, If they don't need anything, marines haven't needed anything new for a long time by that equal measure. They get stuff so often, I don't even think I have anything I'd want them to get or am looking forward to.

Unlike Guard, which I have a wish list, and Dark Eldar which I wish could get some more interesting HQ love and maybe get their finecast turned to plastic, as well as with Eldar.

Don't forget, guard still has metal and finecast models, like the primaris psyker, crusaders, dead cults etc.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Given the way the supplements have worked I'm not too worried about Black Templars. They'll proably come out pretty beastly.

Why is it a Loyalist only paradigm? I honestly can't gey my head around this.

It initially seemed to me to be a new epoch in faction rules but the PA books I hoped they were using to get everyone on this new page seem to be mailed in for non Loyalist factions.

.... because Black Templars are in codex space marines and have been long rumored to be getting something equivilant to the supplements in PA.

You haven't answered the question.

The answer Eldarain is because GW can't stop with their obsession for all things loyalist Marine to the detriment of everything else and the game as a whole. Welcome to 30k 2.0, ten thousand years later.

The next PA is rumoured to be BA vs Nids, I'd put money on GW giving BA all the rules and Nids virtually nothing.

The PA after that is rumoured to be SW vs Orks where again, I suspect the same thing will happen - the Marine faction gets the lions share of the rules updates and development effort.

This will likely be the theme of PA for any 'x vs Marine' set up. Expect nothing to very little. This campaign is a poor excuse to drive sales with little development cost - see Phoenix Rising for evidence of this.

terry wrote:
Don't forget, guard still has metal and finecast models, like the primaris psyker, crusaders, dead cults etc.

I'm not forgetting but people like to say they have all they could possibly want, when it isn't the case. Other factions need new stuff as well, as I'd love them all to get looked at I just wish other factions players wouldn't begrudge each other something new as it isn't each other which is taking time away. It's all the marine releases while some units stick around so old they dwarf some of the player base. I'd say much of it but I don't know many kids who can afford the rapidly growing prices.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think BT will be just fine and will have the same amount of power creep as the other supplements. The French guy leaked some of the abilities for BT.

You want actual RUMOURS in this rumour thread?! How dare you

kikass wrote:Strat on a 2+ can't disengage from BT unit.
You have things like for 1CP, the turn where you land a land raider crusader you do not suffer overwatch in charge and the opponent has -1 to touch you to the cqc. Or you have a relic that gives an invaded 4+ to 3 "around the wearer for 1 round.A warlord trait that gives a bubble + 1Advance and + 1charge (so load has 8+ reroll for BT in FeP) .. yes there are some tips to reach the CqC For the characters do not bother you either, it is especially warlord traits that change, but once they are at the CqC, the target is unlikely to 'get out.

...

Also this for the relevant CSM factions;

Sorry I did not read much about CSM. I just know that the legions concerned will get 1 warlord / strat / relic trait pages each. But I have no more details. All I know is that they will not have a doctrine like SM or retouching their legion (which will not apply to vehicles like DMs ).

I can only hope that this means they’ll be revamping one “broad” faction at a time with the new setup. Maybe Heretic Astartes will be next, maybe Guard, maybe a Xenos faction etc… We can but hope.

As for that BT info… Well, I guess I know what colour and style to paint my upcoming Incursor Battalion then!

Csm won't get anything.
Remember we are allready 2.0 (1.1 really)
And show up in competitive (as codex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator with a bit off purge) so we are fine and Dandy.