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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Initiative just wasn't a very interesting or useful mechanic.

If it were simplified then perhaps but I wouldn't want the old version to return.

It should just be the 'defence' stat tHat you compare your ws and bs to, similar to old ws rules:

If WS > I, 3+ hit
WS= I, 4+ hit
WS 2xI, 2+ hit
WS/2 I, 5+ hit

Identical rules for BS.


Suddenly genestealers and Eldar are harder to hit, actually using speed as a defence like they've said they do for 30+ years...

I'm torn with the "no retreat from combat" habilities. Because for me they felt a little "One and done", once the enemy reachs mele you lose.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't understand how powerfull is shooting vs meele.

My problem comes, I believe, because I don't want meele to become as powerfull as shooting and making the game even more deadly, but for shooting to be toned down significatly. Make things less deadly. Allow me to reach turn 3 with more than 20% of my army.

Being able to lock things in combat does tone down shooting though. It moves power from shooting to melee, but doesn't necessarily make the game more lethal overall.

It does punish turtling up in a castle though, which I really don't mind.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being able to lock things in combat does tone down shooting though. It moves power from shooting to melee, but doesn't necessarily make the game more lethal overall.

It does punish turtling up in a castle though, which I really don't mind.

I suppose you are right. It also helps the weaker meele units. Because the "competitive" and powerfull mele units don't need to block anything in combat. Once they reach meele they destroy in one turn whatever they are charging.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

Any sort of punishment for falling back would also be great.
Right now, falling back from a melee unit is always the correct choice, little tactics or skill involved here.

Something like getting to fight when a unit falls back, but only one attack per model. Or making fall back a consolidation move, so you have to stay in combat and fight before getting out of there.

 Fayric wrote:
You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

You mean "Re-roll charges" and "No Psykers" as far as unique rules? Otherwise, "paint stuff black".

Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

The only BT models released are Finecast, and the upgrade kit is from like 2002.

 Galas wrote:
I'm torn with the "no retreat from combat" habilities. Because for me they felt a little "One and done", once the enemy reachs mele you lose.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't understand how powerfull is shooting vs meele.

My problem comes, I believe, because I don't want meele to become as powerfull as shooting and making the game even more deadly, but for shooting to be toned down significatly. Make things less deadly. Allow me to reach turn 3 with more than 20% of my army.

I think the key difference comes when these abilities are on a dedicated, effective combat unit as opposed to an expendable one that is used solely for pinning down enemy units. The former is far more likely to kill their target in a single phase anyway, so such an ability only becomes overpowered when it can be used with chaff like gaunts or boyz.

I like the 'no fall-back' stratagem, for sure. Hopefully it's not 2 or 3 CP to pull off.

But honestly, all 'CC' armies should have access to that in some way. Melee needs the help in 8th, and the alternative to wiping out a unit in CC in one turn is to immediately get blown off the table the next turn at the moment.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that when targeting an enemy unit that a friendly unit fell back from at the beginning of your turn, all missed shots (before re-rolls) are resolved against your friendly unit that fell back. Something that makes you really have to think about it.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

You mean "Re-roll charges" and "No Psykers" as far as unique rules? Otherwise, "paint stuff black".

Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

The only BT models released are Finecast, and the upgrade kit is from like 2002.

I get where you're coming from, but you are mixing up a subfaction with a proper faction. Black-Templar are black Spacemarines in the same way that Ulthwé are Black Eldar....so your army was playable and the most supported as well. The privilege that your subfaction gets more than a random Craftworld, Sept, Hivefleet etc is exactly that: A privilege

Waaaghbert wrote:
I get where you're coming from, but you are mixing up a subfaction with a proper faction. Black-Templar are black Spacemarines in the same way that Ulthwé are Black Eldar....so your army was playable and the most supported as well. The privilege that your subfaction gets more than a random Craftworld, Sept, Hivefleet etc is exactly that: A privilege

Are you telling me to check my Space Marine Privilege?

Also don't assume my Chapter. I'm Chapter-fluid and Poly-army, and part of the LGBT (Lasguns, Grenades, Bolters, Tanks) community.

 godswildcard wrote:
I like the 'no fall-back' stratagem, for sure. Hopefully it's not 2 or 3 CP to pull off.

But honestly, all 'CC' armies should have access to that in some way. Melee needs the help in 8th, and the alternative to wiping out a unit in CC in one turn is to immediately get blown off the table the next turn at the moment.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that when targeting an enemy unit that a friendly unit fell back from at the beginning of your turn, all missed shots (before re-rolls) are resolved against your friendly unit that fell back. Something that makes you really have to think about it.

I'd love to see this as a Tyranid stratagem usable by any unit with Lash Whips or Toxic Lashes. Would add value to a whole bunch of under-par units & wargear options as well as being a generally great tactical ability.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
I get where you're coming from, but you are mixing up a subfaction with a proper faction. Black-Templar are black Spacemarines in the same way that Ulthwé are Black Eldar....so your army was playable and the most supported as well. The privilege that your subfaction gets more than a random Craftworld, Sept, Hivefleet etc is exactly that: A privilege

Are you telling me to check my Space Marine Privilege?

Also don't assume my Chapter. I'm Chapter-fluid and Poly-army, and part of the LGBT (Lasguns, Grenades, Bolters, Tanks) community.

Hahaha This made me lol at work. I guess most Xenos player just dream of what the space marines are getting, of course I'm happy for you guys, I'll just wish we'd get the same for Craftworlds, Ork-Klans etc.

But I won't derail this Thread any further

I just hope the rest of the PA will be handled better than the eldar stuff!

 xttz wrote:

I'd love to see this as a Tyranid stratagem usable by any unit with Lash Whips or Toxic Lashes. Would add value to a whole bunch of under-par units & wargear options as well as being a generally great tactical ability.

If I'm going to be honest, as much as I'd like to see something of this nature for Tyranids? It cannot be a thing where just one model in the unit can cause it to happen unless there's a fairly hefty pricetag added to Lash Whips/Toxic Lashes.

Waaaghbert wrote:
Hahaha This made me lol at work. I guess most Xenos player just dream of what the space marines are getting, of course I'm happy for you guys, I'll just wish we'd get the same for Craftworlds, Ork-Klans etc.

Here's the thing- GW needs to ease back from their own Chapters/Craftworlds/Cabals/Klans/Tau toilets for a while.

We get it, they're cool.

But give me the tools to make my own army and unique characters. Not just some chart to roll up a name, but an actual system to build characters and set up tactics for that faction.

Do this, and all the primary factions have more appeal.

Except Tau, they will always be dumb and their only tactics option should be "throw your dumb models in the garbage and go home".

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
Hahaha This made me lol at work. I guess most Xenos player just dream of what the space marines are getting, of course I'm happy for you guys, I'll just wish we'd get the same for Craftworlds, Ork-Klans etc.

Here's the thing- GW needs to ease back from their own Chapters/Craftworlds/Cabals/Klans/Tau toilets for a while.

We get it, they're cool.

But give me the tools to make my own army and unique characters. Not just some chart to roll up a name, but an actual system to build characters and set up tactics for that faction.

Do this, and all the primary factions have more appeal.

Except Tau, they will always be dumb and their only tactics option should be "throw your dumb models in the garbage and go home".

I've longed hoped that the Chapters would get replaced with just Tactics to pick freely and fluffwise each Tactic would be considered the "preferred" of whatever Chapter they're based one.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
GW makes an Aeldari and Drukhari boxed set that looks fantastic, and adds new rules to create your own Covens/Cabals/Craftworlds as the first part of Psychic Awakening and Eldar players whine about it.

Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You know, for a LONG time GW just ignored the players. I'm not going to say this was a good business practice, but based on the amount of whining from 40k players- I can see exactly how they'd get to a point where they'd make that decision.

Love the Black Templars ever since Helsreach novel - have my own small but growing army for them.

BUT - BT are a sub sub faction of the Space Marine sub faction of the Imperium Faction.

They already have unique characters and models as well as unique unit. Any non Marine sub sub faction have anyyhing remotely similar to this?

Would it not be nice to have something, anything for all the neglected full Factions before we get yet more Marine bloat?

The Eldar box set is quite disapointing - imagine if the same had been done for one of myriad of unending marine boxsets and releases....

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
GW makes an Aeldari and Drukhari boxed set that looks fantastic, and adds new rules to create your own Covens/Cabals/Craftworlds as the first part of Psychic Awakening and Eldar players whine about it.

Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You know, for a LONG time GW just ignored the players. I'm not going to say this was a good business practice, but based on the amount of whining from 40k players- I can see exactly how they'd get to a point where they'd make that decision.

This statement is so far off the mark.

The box set does not look fantastic (unless you are just discussing the artwork). It has several units that most Aeldari players have zero interest in getting (either because they have enough or the rules are just terrible) which jacked up the price to a level where it wasn't worth it just to get th new models.

Also, if you've taken the time to go through PA, it is nice to get custom craftworld attributes but the book actually didn't give much else. The entire Aspect shrine powers could have been great but there are very few you'd actually want to use. It's literally less than 20% useful. Same with the psychic discipline added. Jain Zar and banshees got new models but the rules remained the same. They're not going to see much tabletop time. And Ynnari were just plopped in there with a points reduction for the characters.

This is no way compares to any of the buffs the marines got recently, not by a long shot. Some of it is cool and quirky and may work in a fluff/narrative perspective (which I'm cool with, it's what I'm doing this weekend with a bunch of guys) but it didn't offer Aeldari players any alternative to their power builds they have been running up until this point. It won't change the Aeledai meta one single bit. It was an opportunity missed IMHO.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

And this is exactly why I can take nothing you say seriously.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

You mean "Re-roll charges" and "No Psykers" as far as unique rules? Otherwise, "paint stuff black".

Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

The only BT models released are Finecast, and the upgrade kit is from like 2002.

So, in other words....exactly the same as every other army's sub-faction support, but with more unit entries than nearly everybody else gets, their own unique troop choice, and their own specialist detachment?

Damn, man, I feel so awful for you poor black templars players.

IIRC the only sub-faction that has more unique units than BT's outside of the Grand Marine Bloat Empire is....cadia? Maybe T'au sept? I don't know Tau that well, how many Tau SC's are actually specifically "T'au Tau"?

BTs get Crusaders, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and the Emperor's Champion. We won't count the Cenobyte Servitors because I ain't googling what unique bs drone units the unique tau guys get or whatever.

Cadia gets Creed, Kell, and Pask.

T'au gets Longstrike, Aunva, Darkstrider, and Shadowsun.

Goffs get Ghazghkull, Zagstruk...and that's apparently it. The unique dok character seems to be a deffskull. TIL.

I dunno, man, it seems like your marine privilege is showing here. More unique datasheets than all but one non-marine subfaction in the entire game. A dedicated specialist detachment, a chapter tactic, a relic, a warlord trait and a stratagem. That is more than annnnnnnnnnnnybody else gets who is a subfaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
GW makes an Aeldari and Drukhari boxed set that looks fantastic, and adds new rules to create your own Covens/Cabals/Craftworlds as the first part of Psychic Awakening and Eldar players whine about it.

Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You know, for a LONG time GW just ignored the players. I'm not going to say this was a good business practice, but based on the amount of whining from 40k players- I can see exactly how they'd get to a point where they'd make that decision.

This statement is so far off the mark.

The box set does not look fantastic (unless you are just discussing the artwork). It has several units that most Aeldari players have zero interest in getting (either because they have enough or the rules are just terrible) which jacked up the price to a level where it wasn't worth it just to get th new models.

Also, if you've taken the time to go through PA, it is nice to get custom craftworld attributes but the book actually didn't give much else. The entire Aspect shrine powers could have been great but there are very few you'd actually want to use. It's literally less than 20% useful. Same with the psychic discipline added. Jain Zar and banshees got new models but the rules remained the same. They're not going to see much tabletop time. And Ynnari were just plopped in there with a points reduction for the characters.

This is no way compares to any of the buffs the marines got recently, not by a long shot. Some of it is cool and quirky and may work in a fluff/narrative perspective (which I'm cool with, it's what I'm doing this weekend with a bunch of guys) but it didn't offer Aeldari players any alternative to their power builds they have been running up until this point. It won't change the Aeledai meta one single bit. It was an opportunity missed IMHO.

By number of pages devoted to it, the rules section for Psychic Awakening book one is mostly a straight-up reprint of a white dwarf.

Thanks, GW, us Eldar players should really be worshipping at your feet I guess?

the_scotsman wrote:

So, in other words....exactly the same as every other army's sub-faction support, but with more unit entries than nearly everybody else gets, their own unique troop choice, and their own specialist detachment?

Damn, man, I feel so awful for you poor black templars players.

IIRC the only sub-faction that has more unique units than BT's outside of the Grand Marine Bloat Empire is....cadia? Maybe T'au sept? I don't know Tau that well, how many Tau SC's are actually specifically "T'au Tau"?

BTs get Crusaders, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and the Emperor's Champion. We won't count the Cenobyte Servitors because I ain't googling what unique bs drone units the unique tau guys get or whatever.

Cadia gets Creed, Kell, and Pask.

T'au gets Longstrike, Aunva, Darkstrider, and Shadowsun.

Goffs get Ghazghkull, Zagstruk...and that's apparently it. The unique dok character seems to be a deffskull. TIL.

I dunno, man, it seems like your marine privilege is showing here. More unique datasheets than all but one non-marine subfaction in the entire game. A dedicated specialist detachment, a chapter tactic, a relic, a warlord trait and a stratagem. That is more than annnnnnnnnnnnybody else gets who is a subfaction.

Let's not forget the myriad of subfactions with no special character, detachment etc etc etc

the_scotsman wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

You mean "Re-roll charges" and "No Psykers" as far as unique rules? Otherwise, "paint stuff black".

Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

The only BT models released are Finecast, and the upgrade kit is from like 2002.

So, in other words....exactly the same as every other army's sub-faction support, but with more unit entries than nearly everybody else gets, their own unique troop choice, and their own specialist detachment?

Damn, man, I feel so awful for you poor black templars players.

IIRC the only sub-faction that has more unique units than BT's outside of the Grand Marine Bloat Empire is....cadia? Maybe T'au sept? I don't know Tau that well, how many Tau SC's are actually specifically "T'au Tau"?

BTs get Crusaders, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and the Emperor's Champion. We won't count the Cenobyte Servitors because I ain't googling what unique bs drone units the unique tau guys get or whatever.

Cadia gets Creed, Kell, and Pask.

T'au gets Longstrike, Aunva, Darkstrider, and Shadowsun.

Goffs get Ghazghkull, Zagstruk...and that's apparently it. The unique dok character seems to be a deffskull. TIL.

I dunno, man, it seems like your marine privilege is showing here. More unique datasheets than all but one non-marine subfaction in the entire game. A dedicated specialist detachment, a chapter tactic, a relic, a warlord trait and a stratagem. That is more than annnnnnnnnnnnybody else gets who is a subfaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
GW makes an Aeldari and Drukhari boxed set that looks fantastic, and adds new rules to create your own Covens/Cabals/Craftworlds as the first part of Psychic Awakening and Eldar players whine about it.

Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You know, for a LONG time GW just ignored the players. I'm not going to say this was a good business practice, but based on the amount of whining from 40k players- I can see exactly how they'd get to a point where they'd make that decision.

This statement is so far off the mark.

The box set does not look fantastic (unless you are just discussing the artwork). It has several units that most Aeldari players have zero interest in getting (either because they have enough or the rules are just terrible) which jacked up the price to a level where it wasn't worth it just to get th new models.

Also, if you've taken the time to go through PA, it is nice to get custom craftworld attributes but the book actually didn't give much else. The entire Aspect shrine powers could have been great but there are very few you'd actually want to use. It's literally less than 20% useful. Same with the psychic discipline added. Jain Zar and banshees got new models but the rules remained the same. They're not going to see much tabletop time. And Ynnari were just plopped in there with a points reduction for the characters.

This is no way compares to any of the buffs the marines got recently, not by a long shot. Some of it is cool and quirky and may work in a fluff/narrative perspective (which I'm cool with, it's what I'm doing this weekend with a bunch of guys) but it didn't offer Aeldari players any alternative to their power builds they have been running up until this point. It won't change the Aeledai meta one single bit. It was an opportunity missed IMHO.

By number of pages devoted to it, the rules section for Psychic Awakening book one is mostly a straight-up reprint of a white dwarf.

Thanks, GW, us Eldar players should really be worshipping at your feet I guess?

Or stop being aggressive and acting like you're owed something? It's a game companies release schedule not social discrimination.

Waaaghbert wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

You mean "Re-roll charges" and "No Psykers" as far as unique rules? Otherwise, "paint stuff black".

Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

The only BT models released are Finecast, and the upgrade kit is from like 2002.

I get where you're coming from, but you are mixing up a subfaction with a proper faction. Black-Templar are black Spacemarines in the same way that Ulthwé are Black Eldar....so your army was playable and the most supported as well. The privilege that your subfaction gets more than a random Craftworld, Sept, Hivefleet etc is exactly that: A privilege

In the same way that Kroot are perfectly playable. Techincally true, but also missing the point. You're focussing entirely on whether models are the same as another faction and not on whether the rules for the faction makes any sense.

The fact that Space Marines have gotten a veritable pile of units and model kits doesn't really matter when the faction in question don't get the rules to back them up. We've seen this to an even more extreme degree with various Inquisition players who've been fethed over because their army essentially no longer exists. The models may very well be playable as Imperial Guard, but just because the models are the same does not mean the army isn't for all intents and purposes dead. Sure, there's been a pile of units that Black Templars could take, but the army has spent three editions as "lol why even bother?". A Black Templars player who has to buy an entire army of Space Marine models because none of the Black Templars stuff he has works for anything but the most casual of games is just as poorly off as someone who plays Necrons, with the exceptions that he can save a little on already having HQs.

Take the Gladius formation in 7th edition for example. It propped Codex: Space Marines up. It also required you to take Tactical Squads, explicitly excluding Crusader Squads. Sure, you could rip your Crusader Squads into pieces, hope you had the bits to rebuild them into Tactical Squads and then buy the rest of the stuff that made the Gladius good, but at that point why would you still be playing Black Templars, and how are you better off than a Tyranid player being told his army is gak outta luck and that he has to buy something else?

I got into Black Templars in the first place back at the start of 5th edition not because they were better than anyone else (God knows they weren't!) but because they were DIFFERENT. They had a playstyle that appealed to me; one that no longer exists. Existing as a Chapter Tactic with unique stuff that was old when I joined the hobby in 2009 doesn't mean that Black Templars as a rules identity have de facto seen any support beyond lip service. You've had the same option to buy Space Marine units you don't like as I have to buy those I don't like. My army, understood as a rules archetype, has not received anything decent rules wise over the last three editions with the exception for the Skyhammer formation in 7th edition. Models-wise I've had great support, but as an army not so much, because most if not all the units released do not fit into the army archetype. It's like releasing a bunch of Tau melee units (note, not Kroot, not Battlesuits, just Tau on foot with melee weapons) and then acting all surprised that Tau players aren't grateful when a bunch of new model kits don't mesh at all with their previous stuff.

No one complains that Ork players that want Speed Freeks to be viable are entitled (or, at least, no one ought to, because it'd be stupid) just because Boyz and Lootas are in a strong position. No one (including myself, blame where blame is due) should be complaining about Eldar players wanting Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions or any other number of perennial underachievers to be viable. Why am I entitled for asking that my army not spend another entire edition getting pummled into dust by the poor, victimised Orks, Eldar and Tau who never get a break from anything?

I guess I should just accept playing an NPC Marine faction, right? That's how the nomenclature goes these days, no?

I'm not saying Black Templar players are entitled, absolutely not. And it is not about working or not working. A subfaction with one Warlord Trait, one relic and one Chapter Tactic can still be playable and incredible powerfull. It is just wrong to say that Black Templar had no releases for 20 years. Just because I dislike Aspect Warriors and play Iyanden I don't go around telling everyone that Rise fo the Phoenix has no Iyanden-Kit.

I just want the Marine players to understand that I , as a Xenos player, want the same thing you get. And most of the times, we simply dont....we do not get a psychic disciplin for each craftworld/Hivefleet/Klan, we don't get 6 Warlord Traits for each subfaction etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 xttz wrote:

I'd love to see this as a Tyranid stratagem usable by any unit with Lash Whips or Toxic Lashes. Would add value to a whole bunch of under-par units & wargear options as well as being a generally great tactical ability.

If I'm going to be honest, as much as I'd like to see something of this nature for Tyranids? It cannot be a thing where just one model in the unit can cause it to happen unless there's a fairly hefty pricetag added to Lash Whips/Toxic Lashes.

You've gotta be kidding me... you really think there's a threat of a seismic meta shift of (checks notes) *Venomthropes and Toxicrenes*? I guess since Nids are such a dominant part of the meta though, any boost might put them over the edge. Oh wait, Nids are entirely absent! Hmm...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

So, in other words....exactly the same as every other army's sub-faction support, but with more unit entries than nearly everybody else gets, their own unique troop choice, and their own specialist detachment?

Damn, man, I feel so awful for you poor black templars players.

IIRC the only sub-faction that has more unique units than BT's outside of the Grand Marine Bloat Empire is....cadia? Maybe T'au sept? I don't know Tau that well, how many Tau SC's are actually specifically "T'au Tau"?

BTs get Crusaders, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and the Emperor's Champion. We won't count the Cenobyte Servitors because I ain't googling what unique bs drone units the unique tau guys get or whatever.

Cadia gets Creed, Kell, and Pask.

T'au gets Longstrike, Aunva, Darkstrider, and Shadowsun.

Goffs get Ghazghkull, Zagstruk...and that's apparently it. The unique dok character seems to be a deffskull. TIL.

I dunno, man, it seems like your marine privilege is showing here. More unique datasheets than all but one non-marine subfaction in the entire game. A dedicated specialist detachment, a chapter tactic, a relic, a warlord trait and a stratagem. That is more than annnnnnnnnnnnybody else gets who is a subfaction.

Let's not forget the myriad of subfactions with no special character, detachment etc etc etc

Tau get special problems too. Everything worth taking is Tau sept, there are exactly 3 generic HQ types since the Commander rule homogenizes them into one but worse since they also have to be separated by detachment. They even have a HQ that is specifically for a Sept that has no rules.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
You realise BT has had uniqe rules and full access to every marine release for all those 20 years (Well, not uniqe SW units perhaps, but even BA and DA are good conversion material for templars).
Its really a laughable sentiment if you are serious
Your statement really illustrate the worst marine focused attitude.

You mean "Re-roll charges" and "No Psykers" as far as unique rules? Otherwise, "paint stuff black".

Your statement is exactly why I wholeheartedly support GW releasing a Primaris Lieutenant every week. If you want a Xeno army, make it out of green stuff.

The only BT models released are Finecast, and the upgrade kit is from like 2002.

So, in other words....exactly the same as every other army's sub-faction support, but with more unit entries than nearly everybody else gets, their own unique troop choice, and their own specialist detachment?

Damn, man, I feel so awful for you poor black templars players.

IIRC the only sub-faction that has more unique units than BT's outside of the Grand Marine Bloat Empire is....cadia? Maybe T'au sept? I don't know Tau that well, how many Tau SC's are actually specifically "T'au Tau"?

BTs get Crusaders, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and the Emperor's Champion. We won't count the Cenobyte Servitors because I ain't googling what unique bs drone units the unique tau guys get or whatever.

Cadia gets Creed, Kell, and Pask.

T'au gets Longstrike, Aunva, Darkstrider, and Shadowsun.

Goffs get Ghazghkull, Zagstruk...and that's apparently it. The unique dok character seems to be a deffskull. TIL.

I dunno, man, it seems like your marine privilege is showing here. More unique datasheets than all but one non-marine subfaction in the entire game. A dedicated specialist detachment, a chapter tactic, a relic, a warlord trait and a stratagem. That is more than annnnnnnnnnnnybody else gets who is a subfaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
GW makes an Aeldari and Drukhari boxed set that looks fantastic, and adds new rules to create your own Covens/Cabals/Craftworlds as the first part of Psychic Awakening and Eldar players whine about it.

Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You know, for a LONG time GW just ignored the players. I'm not going to say this was a good business practice, but based on the amount of whining from 40k players- I can see exactly how they'd get to a point where they'd make that decision.

This statement is so far off the mark.

The box set does not look fantastic (unless you are just discussing the artwork). It has several units that most Aeldari players have zero interest in getting (either because they have enough or the rules are just terrible) which jacked up the price to a level where it wasn't worth it just to get th new models.

Also, if you've taken the time to go through PA, it is nice to get custom craftworld attributes but the book actually didn't give much else. The entire Aspect shrine powers could have been great but there are very few you'd actually want to use. It's literally less than 20% useful. Same with the psychic discipline added. Jain Zar and banshees got new models but the rules remained the same. They're not going to see much tabletop time. And Ynnari were just plopped in there with a points reduction for the characters.

This is no way compares to any of the buffs the marines got recently, not by a long shot. Some of it is cool and quirky and may work in a fluff/narrative perspective (which I'm cool with, it's what I'm doing this weekend with a bunch of guys) but it didn't offer Aeldari players any alternative to their power builds they have been running up until this point. It won't change the Aeledai meta one single bit. It was an opportunity missed IMHO.

By number of pages devoted to it, the rules section for Psychic Awakening book one is mostly a straight-up reprint of a white dwarf.

Thanks, GW, us Eldar players should really be worshipping at your feet I guess?

Technically a Craftworld has the most special characters available to it out of everyone -
You get,
1 Avatar,
6 Phoenix Lords,
Yriel/Eldrad/Illic/Blackstone sniper Elf

Whilst the Phoenix Lords aren't Craftworld "tied" they are available to anyone running Craftworlds.

But releases are entirely meaningless from a rules-perspective if they're bad. For an Iyanden player, the stuff in Rise of the Phoenix really doesn't do anything. Similarly, an Ork Speed Freak player like my local Ork player is entirely reasonable in pointing out that while they got a bunch of new kits they're mostly hot garbage rules-wise. It'd be silly to tell Ork players to suck it up because they got a bunch of bad units. It's silly to tell Eldar/Dark Eldar players to just bite the bullet and buy a boxset full of junk for six new models that aren't even that good. It's silly to tell Black Templars players how good they have it because they can buy a bunch of new units and still be worse than every other permutation of one of the worst armies in the game (prior to the new book). The thing is Black Templars went from having support and their own identity to being the worst-in-class three editions in a row.

It's kinda like Eldar players having to take flak because Ynnari steamrolled everyone for quite a while. None of the stuff that actually does anything did that for Eldar players, but they got collectively tarred and feathered anyway. The fact that I get more opportunities to buy things doesn't practically make a difference if those things don't actually do anything for my army.. If GW released plastic Dire Avengers tomorrow but they cost 22 PPM and didn't have any decent rules they wouldn't sell very well. If anything Primaris Marines are somewhat of an anomaly in that they've sold despite being at best mediocre before the new Codex.

By all means, be angry that there's a bunch of Eldar units, such as Howling Banshees, that are perpetually bad. Be mad that a bunch of Ork units might as well not exist. Raise a middle finger to the sky over the fact that anyone ever thought the current Word Bearers Legion Tactic was a good idea. Be miffed that Khorne Berzerkers are channeling their inner killer bunny instead of getting a modern sculpt.

Just don't kick the legs out from under factions that have spent three editions sinking further and further into obscurity just because you don't like the fact that there's a bunch of unneccessary Marine releases, because I don't like that either.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
But releases are entirely meaningless from a rules-perspective if they're bad. For an Iyanden player, the stuff in Rise of the Phoenix really doesn't do anything. Similarly, an Ork Speed Freak player like my local Ork player is entirely reasonable in pointing out that while they got a bunch of new kits they're mostly hot garbage rules-wise. It'd be silly to tell Ork players to suck it up because they got a bunch of bad units. It's silly to tell Eldar/Dark Eldar players to just bite the bullet and buy a boxset full of junk for six new models that aren't even that good. It's silly to tell Black Templars players how good they have it because they can buy a bunch of new units and still be worse than every other permutation of one of the worst armies in the game (prior to the new book). The thing is Black Templars went from having support and their own identity to being the worst-in-class three editions in a row.

It's kinda like Eldar players having to take flak because Ynnari steamrolled everyone for quite a while. None of the stuff that actually does anything did that for Eldar players, but they got collectively tarred and feathered anyway. The fact that I get more opportunities to buy things doesn't practically make a difference if those things don't actually do anything for my army.. If GW released plastic Dire Avengers tomorrow but they cost 22 PPM and didn't have any decent rules they wouldn't sell very well. If anything Primaris Marines are somewhat of an anomaly in that they've sold despite being at best mediocre before the new Codex.

By all means, be angry that there's a bunch of Eldar units, such as Howling Banshees, that are perpetually bad. Be mad that a bunch of Ork units might as well not exist. Raise a middle finger to the sky over the fact that anyone ever thought the current Word Bearers Legion Tactic was a good idea. Be miffed that Khorne Berzerkers are channeling their inner killer bunny instead of getting a modern sculpt.

Just don't kick the legs out from under factions that have spent three editions sinking further and further into obscurity just because you don't like the fact that there's a bunch of unneccessary Marine releases, because I don't like that either.

Worst-in-class Marines in 7th still puts you middle of the pack. Worst-in-class Marines were at the bottom of the haves, but they still demolished the have-nots. In 8th, you have a fair point prior to the new codex but even if you stuck with just the new codex and no amped-up supplement, you'd again be better off than most of the other codexes in the game (I'd put the new Marines book on par with the IG book; it's full of strong stuff, not a lot of OP stuff outside of supplements, but very little that's actually weak either).

Again, PA is probably the 2 year balance pass for all these Xenos armies. Basically, to me it means that CWE in particular (and probably Orks, and probably Nids; less so DE because I think that's a really strong book to begin with) are just going to miss out. I don't think BT would be comparable because you do benefit from the power increase of the Codex and get things like T1 DS. You've got your strength back even before the supplement.

Dudeface wrote:


Or stop being aggressive and acting like you're owed something? It's a game companies release schedule not social discrimination.

This is very true and important to remember once in a vhile.