Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.

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**Kanluwen**

And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

**beast_gts**

Kanluwen wrote:
And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

Yep - this is a very odd release..

**BrianDavion**

Kanluwen wrote:
And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

they'll come out with imperial fists and salamanders in a month.

**Nevelon**

BrianDavion wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

they'll come out with imperial fists and salamanders in a month.

Anyone want to speculate on how long? What was the gap between the UM/WS and the IF/RG?

**Daedalus81**

I'd bet the double repair can't target the same vehicle - the stratagem is up in the air.

**Kanluwen**

BrianDavion wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

they'll come out with imperial fists and salamanders in a month.

Yeah, cause Imperial Fists and Salamanders are totally known for utilizing stealthier units...

Never mind that Raven Guard literally got mentioned as fielding all Phobos Companies.

**BrianDavion**

Kanluwen wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

they'll come out with imperial fists and salamanders in a month.

Yeah, cause Imperial Fists and Salamanders are totally known for utilizing stealthier units...

Never mind that Raven Guard literally got mentioned as fielding all Phobos Companies.

it's all aprt of the generic space marines release. understand characters aside we are NOT going to get new models with the supplements aside from what GW's already previewed

**Eipi10**

The Newman wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now? They have all codices combined at this point.

Price per model. The new rules are really good, but Marines still wind up outnumbered by a lot against the average army and they're still really fragile per point. They feel like they have the 'hammer' part of 'glass hammer' now, but the 'glass' part is still there too.

Marines are meant to be outnumbered, there are only 1 million across the galaxy. I would be weird if they played like guardsmen with an extra protein bar, and they seemed pretty close to reaching that point at times (12 point marines, scouts replacing tacticals). That being said, I do agree that marines have more than enough killing power while they lack durability and movement.
I wonder if a 7" movement stat, a minimum advance of 2-3", or even new transports would help their movement in a balanced way (but I haven't played with implusors or the new drop pod rule). And I'm not sure what can be done for their durability. +1 wounds would be excessive even with the appropriate points hike. Other statline modifications wouldn't work and rerolling armor saves or adding a FNP would require too much die rolling.
But I play DW, so my marines are meant to be glass cannons and maybe that disqualifies my thoughts.

**AngryAngel80**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now ? They have all codices combined at this point.

I don't fault anyone their good stuff, but yeah, this. I read that and had to shake my head. I mean it makes sense, they are marines why wouldn't they be better techs than the ad mech. I mean it isn't like they learned their craft on Mars or anything...right ?

isn't the Onager a lot SMALLER?

I'm not talking about the executioner, and if i was going to be mad about that I'd be mad it's like a leman russ shooting a neutron laster with longer range. I'm talking about the super heals, at the least I'd believe the ad mech should be better fixing machines than a tech marine, at the worst they would be on par, not worse than one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now ? They have all codices combined at this point.

I don't fault anyone their good stuff, but yeah, this. I read that and had to shake my head. I mean it makes sense, they are marines why wouldn't they be better techs than the ad mech. I mean it isn't like they learned their craft on Mars or anything...right ?

They had a similar bonus in 6th-7th but you didn't complain.

I was unaware they had this exact same codex, with all of these abilities at the exact same time the ad mech 8th codex was out back in 6th- 7th. Could it be I'm actually comparing the game state to now when both of them had very different books back then ?

Could it be perhaps I was playing Skittari at the time, which had 0 tech priests in it as even an option so why would I care of an ability someone else had I had 0 access to as the Skittari and the Cult mechanicus was split between two different books ? No, couldn't be that, it has to be me taking exception now in some weird way to be upset currently and not then, just so you could comment on it.

Over looking that, looking at the now, it's a little silly they are better techs than the tech faction. I'd assume a techmarine will be more robust in CC, not better in the fixing department. I'd even give the iron hands more robust vehicles as it seems like the ad mech like flimsy vehicles based on the ones they bring around.

I don't care. I played Skitarii too.

Did you bother to think of the repairs per price of model? Seems to make sense the Master of the Forge would do an okay job for the price?

I'm not exactly sure what you want to bicker about. I'll take a stab you just don't like I take issue with a forge father being a better mechanic than all the ad mechs mechanics. That's just too bad if that is the case, as I do take issue with it anyways. Him being better at that, bugs me. Having lesser, cheaper mechanics would only make me feel ok with it, if those self same lesser heals could be applied to the same vehicle, but they can't. I don't care if you feel like a forge father should be better because he's a mighty space man or not. Even if the mighty space man was better than a tech priest, why more so than a dominus who isn't exactly cheap, or even Cawl who made all the space mans new things, including new bodies of primaris dudes. That to me, sucks. If he was just " ok " that would be fine and exactly like I'd imagine, like maybe as good as a tech marine, with better options, like his shoulder gun for instance and better stats which I'm sure he has for his price.

Now I'll say again, I fault no one their new cool things. I just don't like super mans being better mechanics than the mechanics when I expect him to be more robust and better at CC, as he should be.

**Karol**

But aren't forge father not just mechancis, they are super mechanics. Plus specialisation helps with what you can do. my step brother is good at fixing cars, but mostly hondas,hyundais and toyotas. If you brought him a tank to fix, he wouldn't know what to do at first. A tech priest knows how to fix and operate everything imperial, a space marine techmarine is very good at fixing space marine stuff and that is it. bring him a toaster to fix, and he won't know what to do.

**kastelen**

Karol wrote:
But aren't forge father not just mechancis, they are super mechanics. Plus specialisation helps with what you can do. my step brother is good at fixing cars, but mostly hondas,hyundais and toyotas. If you brought him a tank to fix, he wouldn't know what to do at first. A tech priest knows how to fix and operate everything imperial, a space marine techmarine is very good at fixing space marine stuff and that is it. bring him a toaster to fix, and he won't know what to do.

A tech priest is also able to build a space marine vehicle and likely has access to nearly all the knowledge on it, assuming it's not a relic.

**AngryAngel80**

Karol wrote:
But aren't forge father not just mechancis, they are super mechanics. Plus specialisation helps with what you can do. my step brother is good at fixing cars, but mostly hondas,hyundais and toyotas. If you brought him a tank to fix, he wouldn't know what to do at first. A tech priest knows how to fix and operate everything imperial, a space marine techmarine is very good at fixing space marine stuff and that is it. bring him a toaster to fix, and he won't know what to do.

They'd be specialized but then who do you think makes all the vehicles ? The mechanicus, so while I'd believe some tech priests may not do as well. A dominus probably has much of his mind repalced with computers so shouldn't be worse than a forge father having extensive tech knowledge for all the designs they produce and then some, and considering Cawl invented their new techno toys you'd imagine he'd be much better at it.

**Karol**

They make their own vehicles. It is in their lore, Iron Hands and salamanders, if they weren't space marines or had a bigger population to rule over, would have forge world status.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kastelen wrote:
Karol wrote:
But aren't forge father not just mechancis, they are super mechanics. Plus specialisation helps with what you can do. my step brother is good at fixing cars, but mostly hondas,hyundais and toyotas. If you brought him a tank to fix, he wouldn't know what to do at first. A tech priest knows how to fix and operate everything imperial, a space marine techmarine is very good at fixing space marine stuff and that is it. bring him a toaster to fix, and he won't know what to do.

A tech priest is also able to build a space marine vehicle and likely has access to nearly all the knowledge on it, assuming it's not a relic.

But it is impossible to represent in the rules. a FF has to be super good at fixing marine stuff, and that is what he is in the game rules. A tech priest is a NPC faction, with an old book, so he gets not as efficient rules.

**kastelen**

Karol wrote:
They make their own vehicles. It is in their lore, Iron Hands and salamanders, if they weren't space marines or had a bigger population to rule over, would have forge world status.

Not really seeing as they just need to create and maintain the vehicles, fleet and weapons of their own chapter. That assumes they're doing it by themselves with no outside help. I don't have my codex on hand at the moment but I believe agripinaa was supplying Cadia almost by itself for periods of time and then managed to take the forces spilling out of the eye of terror after Cadia's fall.

Karol wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kastelen wrote:
Karol wrote:
But aren't forge father not just mechancis, they are super mechanics. Plus specialisation helps with what you can do. my step brother is good at fixing cars, but mostly hondas,hyundais and toyotas. If you brought him a tank to fix, he wouldn't know what to do at first. A tech priest knows how to fix and operate everything imperial, a space marine techmarine is very good at fixing space marine stuff and that is it. bring him a toaster to fix, and he won't know what to do.

A tech priest is also able to build a space marine vehicle and likely has access to nearly all the knowledge on it, assuming it's not a relic.

But it is impossible to represent in the rules. a FF has to be super good at fixing marine stuff, and that is what he is in the game rules. A tech priest is a NPC faction, with an old book, so he gets not as efficient rules.

And GK are an NPC faction that only actually do stuff in the extremely rare occurrence that a daemon invasion is about to go critical. They also have an old book.
This is fun.

**AngryAngel80**

Wait, why does a FF have to be super good fixing marine stuff ? A FF has to fix marine stuff, but super good at it ? More good than the inventor of said marine stuff ? More good than the also very old tech priests who run forge worlds and pump out those same machines by the thousands for feeding all the space mans their toys ?

What kind of strange logic is this ?

**Marin**

Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now ? They have all codices combined at this point.

Probably not, space marines are getting overbuffed. They are doing everything better than everyone else.

**ZebioLizard2**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Wait, why does a FF have to be super good fixing marine stuff ? A FF has to fix marine stuff, but super good at it ? More good than the inventor of said marine stuff ? More good than the also very old tech priests who run forge worlds and pump out those same machines by the thousands for feeding all the space mans their toys ?

What kind of strange logic is this ?

Inventor? They use STC's! They're giant factories pre-programmed to build things! A standard Tech Priest is lubing parts, not inventing things. And even the ones that hit the battlefield we have are the generalists and not Artisans given they're meant to represent battle congregation leaders.

Though I'm hoping we'll eventually get all the aspects of Mechanicus in so that the various aspects of it can be represented.. You'd think we'd get some difference between the Artisans and Biologis, but they've been really slow on expanding out 40k Mechanicus.. Mostly just want the Constructor/Artisans so we can have huge buffs to Servitors and Vehicles on the battlefield.

**Not Online!!!**

Marin wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now ? They have all codices combined at this point.

Probably not, space marines are getting overbuffed. They are doing everything better than everyone else.

*Agitated bitter grumblings in iron warrior, followed by a shovel snapped in half and angry metal fist tentacle shaking.

**Stux**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Marin wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now ? They have all codices combined at this point.

Probably not, space marines are getting overbuffed. They are doing everything better than everyone else.

*Agitated bitter grumblings in iron warrior, followed by a shovel snapped in half and angry metal fist tentacle shaking.

Sorry, but that reaction does seem extremely fluff appropriate

**Karol**

kastelen wrote:

And GK are an NPC faction that only actually do stuff in the extremely rare occurrence that a daemon invasion is about to go critical. They also have an old book.
This is fun.

GK are a space marine faction, that automaticaly makes them a not NPC faction.

Not really seeing as they just need to create and maintain the vehicles, fleet and weapons of their own chapter. That assumes they're doing it by themselves with no outside help. I don't have my codex on hand at the moment but I believe agripinaa was supplying Cadia almost by itself for periods of time and then managed to take the forces spilling out of the eye of terror after Cadia's fall.

**kastelen**

Karol wrote:
kastelen wrote:

And GK are an NPC faction that only actually do stuff in the extremely rare occurrence that a daemon invasion is about to go critical. They also have an old book.
This is fun.

GK are a space marine faction, that automaticaly makes them a not NPC faction.

Not really seeing as they just need to create and maintain the vehicles, fleet and weapons of their own chapter. That assumes they're doing it by themselves with no outside help. I don't have my codex on hand at the moment but I believe agripinaa was supplying Cadia almost by itself for periods of time and then managed to take the forces spilling out of the eye of terror after Cadia's fall.

Am not sure I am following you, space marines specially those fleet based create and fix their stuff on their own. Or they are like Grey Knights that have a small forge hive as their slave, to produce stuff like space ships . The more arcane stuff, like GK specific armour, weapons, tanks are done by chapter techmarines. Now realisticaly, the job is huge and to do it GK would have to have litteral legions of techmarines, but I think this is the case of that magic being at work, where a squad of marines can take a planet, and a company of space marine can take over a whole system, and a chapter of 1000 man can rule a whole sector.

**Kanluwen**

BrianDavion wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And with silliness at its finest, the literal two items to round out the generic book's release got left out.

they'll come out with imperial fists and salamanders in a month.

Yeah, cause Imperial Fists and Salamanders are totally known for utilizing stealthier units...

Never mind that Raven Guard literally got mentioned as fielding all Phobos Companies.

it's all aprt of the generic space marines release. understand characters aside we are NOT going to get new models with the supplements aside from what GW's already previewed

I think either you're misunderstanding my comment or you just typed a thing to type a thing.

The first Supplement we saw released? You'd be right--it was Tigurius, Khan, dice for both Ultramarines and White Scars, datacards, supplements, and the main codex. There was no generic models.
This release, however, has seen two of the remaining four generic releases: the Reiver Lieutenant and Eliminators set.

So we literally have to wait for another release slot just to get the Infiltrator/Incursor kit and the Impulsor.

**The Newman**

Eipi10 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now? They have all codices combined at this point.

Price per model. The new rules are really good, but Marines still wind up outnumbered by a lot against the average army and they're still really fragile per point. They feel like they have the 'hammer' part of 'glass hammer' now, but the 'glass' part is still there too.

Marines are meant to be outnumbered, there are only 1 million across the galaxy. I would be weird if they played like guardsmen with an extra protein bar, and they seemed pretty close to reaching that point at times (12 point marines, scouts replacing tacticals). That being said, I do agree that marines have more than enough killing power while they lack durability and movement.
I wonder if a 7" movement stat, a minimum advance of 2-3", or even new transports would help their movement in a balanced way (but I haven't played with implusors or the new drop pod rule). And I'm not sure what can be done for their durability. +1 wounds would be excessive even with the appropriate points hike. Other statline modifications wouldn't work and rerolling armor saves or adding a FNP would require too much die rolling.
But I play DW, so my marines are meant to be glass cannons and maybe that disqualifies my thoughts.

"Marines are meant to be outnumbered." - True. That's part of why they have such powerful leaf-blower units (and saying that feels weird). Mini-marines struggle there but the Primaris stuff does a lot to pick up the slack.

"Marines lack movement and durability." - Durability yes, movement not so much. I've got turn-one drop-pods, a ton of Advanced Deploy options in Phobos, Phobos can redeploy once they know what the enemy deployment looks like, Ultramarines can do that with normal units, UMs can move anything and fire without penalties, White Scars can do the Assault Vehicle thing out of anything besides a Stormraven, there's good troop options with Assault X weapons and WS can charge after advancing so they're a lot faster than you might be expecting them to be, it doesn't feel like Marines are suffering as much as they used to be there.

**Xenomancers**

LOL - 5++ invo bubble?

I really love how they traded Gman reliance for Ironfather reliance.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - 5++ invo bubble?

I really love how they traded Gman reliance for Ironfather reliance.

Depends on if that's a KFF bubble or just "within".

**The Newman**

Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - 5++ invo bubble?

I really love how they traded Gman reliance for Ironfather reliance.

DA have had that for a while and they're not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

**Daedalus81**

The Newman wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - 5++ invo bubble?

I really love how they traded Gman reliance for Ironfather reliance.

DA have had that for a while and they're not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

Yea, it's quite a tight bubble. If this guy gives 5++ to Repulsors and the like I can see it becoming a pseudo-requirement.

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
LOL - 5++ invo bubble?

I really love how they traded Gman reliance for Ironfather reliance.

DA have had that for a while and they're not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

Yea, it's quite a tight bubble. If this guy gives 5++ to Repulsors and the like I can see it becoming a pseudo-requirement.

Absolutely a requirement. I play with basically my entire force in a 6" reroll bubble. Not difficult at all to protect a few executioners that you will be standing next to trying to repair anyways.

It is really disappointing this bubble is an iron hands special character. It's actually dumb. It makes already mandatory iron hands more mandatory.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:

It is really disappointing this bubble is an iron hands special character. It's actually dumb. It makes already mandatory iron hands more mandatory.

It's possible it won't affect vehicles like DA - we'll know soon enough.

**Not Online!!!**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Yea, it's quite a tight bubble. If this guy gives 5++ to Repulsors and the like I can see it becoming a pseudo-requirement.
Absolutely a requirement. I play with basically my entire force in a 6" reroll bubble. Not difficult at all to protect a few executioners that you will be standing next to trying to repair anyways.

It is really disappointing this bubble is an iron hands special character. It's actually dumb. It makes already mandatory iron hands more mandatory.

It's possible it won't affect vehicles like DA - we'll know soon enough.

The whole bubble gak makes me wish the era of template blasts back.