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2019/09/09 18:36:21
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
I think either you're misunderstanding my comment or you just typed a thing to type a thing.
The first Supplement we saw released? You'd be right--it was Tigurius, Khan, dice for both Ultramarines and White Scars, datacards, supplements, and the main codex. There was no generic models.
This release, however, has seen two of the remaining four generic releases: the Reiver Lieutenant and Eliminators set.
So we literally have to wait for another release slot just to get the Infiltrator/Incursor kit and the Impulsor.
Nope. First supplements released the invictor war suit, phobos captain, and Phobos Librarian.
August 10th was the Codex, Tigurius, Khan, and their respective supplements.
August 17th was the Phobos Captain, Librarian, invictor, and the pseudo-Ultramarines Lieutenant..
2019/09/09 18:44:49
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Don't worry. I like this crazy train. By the time they get around to GK it will be something truly jaw dropping like:
All Psykic tests succeed on a 1 if there is a Palladin withing 6". All Strike squads now get an extra 12 attacks with their thunder hammers if the models are painted. When your warlord is Kaldor Draigo, all GK within 72" become GMDKs.
Seriously. This is getting silly. The first things were kinda wow, then they released stuff that was borderline meta breaking, now we have this. And still a couple more codexes after this!
Yea, baby! Rock the hyperbole! Ain't nothing stopping you now!
2019/09/09 18:48:56
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
I wonder how stalker bolter intercessors will compare now as Iron Hands. They just might make the cut to replace auto bolter rifles. Yeah they're two less shots, but always re-rolling 1s, and ap-3 2dmg could him them find a place assuming you have proper volume of fire from say 3 redemptor dreadnoughts. Also 3x suppressors I think will be in all my Iron Hand lists. All their problems just got fixed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 18:49:24
2019/09/09 18:58:10
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i think that ultramarines are stronger than IH, at least until now.
The devastator doctrine is nice, but the strongest doctrine for marines is the tactical one. Who cares if a lascannon gets an extra -1 AP, it's the additional -1 on bolter weapons which is truly scary.
Really
I'll take a dakka redemptor as ultramarines it's throwing 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 4's or 18 S5 Ap-1 Hitting on 3's
Iron Hands 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 3's rerolling 1's
Repulsor
Ultramarines at best gains the Ap-1 of devistator doctrine for turn 1 but turn 2 onwards gains 0
Iron hands Ap-1 Re-roll 1's
That's qithout taking into account the 6+++ FNP or the double wounds for damage table abilities.
2019/09/09 19:07:12
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
I think the Scions and Calculated fury are about equal.
The different is that Tactical Doctrine seems to help with more shots. Getting an extra -1AP on 10 heavy weapons shots, versus getting a -1AP for 30 Rapid fire and assault weapons in a turn.
A built Iron Hands force is going to be a tough game though. Maybe some of the ultramarine band wagoners can head for Iron hands.
2019/09/09 19:10:33
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Xenomancers wrote: OMG...Ignore penalties for heavies...on turn 1...in the best doctrine...and if that isn't enough - you also get to reroll 1's to hit for free....Can I just slap these rule writers now? Iron Hands bias is just silly.
This is so much better than sions of guilliman it's hilarious.
I actually think I disagree. Handing out "effectively didn't move" to two critical things turn one and everything turn two is arguably better than "no move-and-shoot penalties for heavies" turn one, because the one impacts Aggressors and Executioners and all the Rapid Fire weapons while the other doesn't and also because +1 Ap is a lot more valuable on all the Ap - basic weapons than it is on most of the Heavy weapons.
They both kick "D+1 on melee attacks on the third turn" into a roadside ditch and then throw gasoline on the wreckage though.
What do you mean turn 1 only it's every turn that devistator doctrine is active they get that bonus, that's slightly more bang for buck than just counting as stationary while your buffing your rapid fire weapons. Iron Hands will be the premier shooting marine's untill imperial fists or they are the best shooting marine's which is goinf to put them as probably the best way to play marine's given how the assualt vrs shooting debate always goes.
I generally assume that people reading about Space Marine Doctrines on a 40k forum are going to know how Doctrines work and not need "starting on" explicitly spelled out when talking about faction-specific Doctrine bonuses. A mistake, perhaps.
Xenomancers wrote: OMG...Ignore penalties for heavies...on turn 1...in the best doctrine...and if that isn't enough - you also get to reroll 1's to hit for free....Can I just slap these rule writers now? Iron Hands bias is just silly.
This is so much better than sions of guilliman it's hilarious.
I actually think I disagree. Handing out "effectively didn't move" to two critical things turn one and everything turn two is arguably better than "no move-and-shoot penalties for heavies" turn one, because the one impacts Aggressors and Executioners and all the Rapid Fire weapons while the other doesn't and also because +1 Ap is a lot more valuable on all the Ap - basic weapons than it is on most of the Heavy weapons.
They both kick "D+1 on melee attacks on the third turn" into a roadside ditch and then throw gasoline on the wreckage though.
What do you mean turn 1 only it's every turn that devistator doctrine is active they get that bonus, that's slightly more bang for buck than just counting as stationary while your buffing your rapid fire weapons. Iron Hands will be the premier shooting marine's untill imperial fists or they are the best shooting marine's which is goinf to put them as probably the best way to play marine's given how the assualt vrs shooting debate always goes.
I generally assume that people reading about Space Marine Doctrines on a 40k forum are going to know how Doctrines work and not need "starting on" explicitly spelled out when talking about faction-specific Doctrine bonuses. A mistake, perhaps.
Your massively underselling it and forgetting the reroll 1's part of the same ability.
It's not your bolters that are taking down Knights, Russes, Repulsors, dreadnaughts etc it's your heavies.
If your in a meta of horde spam maybe the tactical doctrine helps but against anything else the devistator doctrine is going to be king.
2019/09/09 19:17:41
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i think that ultramarines are stronger than IH, at least until now.
The devastator doctrine is nice, but the strongest doctrine for marines is the tactical one. Who cares if a lascannon gets an extra -1 AP, it's the additional -1 on bolter weapons which is truly scary.
Just have to build your list for it. Iron Hands are going to be all about those dreads and assault cannon razorbacks. And now suppressors having fly and deep strike doesn't seem so incongruous with that trait.
2019/09/09 19:18:49
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Reemule wrote: I think the Scions and Calculated fury are about equal.
The different is that Tactical Doctrine seems to help with more shots. Getting an extra -1AP on 10 heavy weapons shots, versus getting a -1AP for 30 Rapid fire and assault weapons in a turn.
A built Iron Hands force is going to be a tough game though. Maybe some of the ultramarine band wagoners can head for Iron hands.
Again it also allows re-roll 1's for heavies aswell, basically all your heavies get a free captain in devistator doctrine.
2019/09/09 19:19:35
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Xenomancers wrote: OMG...Ignore penalties for heavies...on turn 1...in the best doctrine...and if that isn't enough - you also get to reroll 1's to hit for free....Can I just slap these rule writers now? Iron Hands bias is just silly.
This is so much better than sions of guilliman it's hilarious.
I actually think I disagree. Handing out "effectively didn't move" to two critical things turn one and everything turn two is arguably better than "no move-and-shoot penalties for heavies" turn one, because the one impacts Aggressors and Executioners and all the Rapid Fire weapons while the other doesn't and also because +1 Ap is a lot more valuable on all the Ap - basic weapons than it is on most of the Heavy weapons.
They both kick "D+1 on melee attacks on the third turn" into a roadside ditch and then throw gasoline on the wreckage though.
What do you mean turn 1 only it's every turn that devistator doctrine is active they get that bonus, that's slightly more bang for buck than just counting as stationary while your buffing your rapid fire weapons. Iron Hands will be the premier shooting marine's untill imperial fists or they are the best shooting marine's which is goinf to put them as probably the best way to play marine's given how the assualt vrs shooting debate always goes.
I generally assume that people reading about Space Marine Doctrines on a 40k forum are going to know how Doctrines work and not need "starting on" explicitly spelled out when talking about faction-specific Doctrine bonuses. A mistake, perhaps.
Your massively underselling it and forgetting the reroll 1's part of the same ability.
It's not your bolters that are taking down Knights, Russes, Repulsors, dreadnaughts etc it's your heavies.
If your in a meta of horde spam maybe the tactical doctrine helps but against anything else the devistator doctrine is going to be king.
Perhaps, but my bolters are what takes down all the screening units protecting those Knights, Russes, Repulsors, etc. and they're really lousy at that job without the Ap bonus. My heavies don't need the help quite as much.
I'm also consistently taking a Master of the Chapter because rerolling 1s isn't nearly good enough for Space Marines. I need reroll misses instead with all the to-hit penalties I have to deal with, and I don't have the numbers to be able to afford to miss very often. I'd have to stack that "reroll 1s for heavies" with the successor subtraits to reroll 1s for Bolt weapons and possibly Artificers to feel like it added up to enough to get by without the MotC upgrade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 19:29:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/09/09 19:25:00
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
I think the fact that there is such a debate between whether heavy or tactical is better means that there are interesting choices available now and it gives players the ability to pick a phase to prioritize and not get penalized by not picking the "best".
Reemule wrote: I think the Scions and Calculated fury are about equal.
The different is that Tactical Doctrine seems to help with more shots. Getting an extra -1AP on 10 heavy weapons shots, versus getting a -1AP for 30 Rapid fire and assault weapons in a turn.
A built Iron Hands force is going to be a tough game though. Maybe some of the ultramarine band wagoners can head for Iron hands.
Again it also allows re-roll 1's for heavies aswell, basically all your heavies get a free captain in devistator doctrine.
Yes, but Aggressors get to count as stationary.
Its good, its just about equal I feel. But the Ironhand Chapter Tactic is better. And the I'm sure they will have other tricks that are as good or better.
2019/09/09 19:29:30
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Reemule wrote: I think the Scions and Calculated fury are about equal.
The different is that Tactical Doctrine seems to help with more shots. Getting an extra -1AP on 10 heavy weapons shots, versus getting a -1AP for 30 Rapid fire and assault weapons in a turn.
A built Iron Hands force is going to be a tough game though. Maybe some of the ultramarine band wagoners can head for Iron hands.
Again it also allows re-roll 1's for heavies aswell, basically all your heavies get a free captain in devistator doctrine.
Yes, but Aggressors get to count as stationary.
Its good, its just about equal I feel. But the Ironhand Chapter Tactic is better. And the I'm sure they will have other tricks that are as good or better.
Just kill the agressors from more than 23 inches away aka still not a turn 1 threat.
2019/09/09 19:31:21
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i think that ultramarines are stronger than IH, at least until now.
The devastator doctrine is nice, but the strongest doctrine for marines is the tactical one. Who cares if a lascannon gets an extra -1 AP, it's the additional -1 on bolter weapons which is truly scary.
Really
I'll take a dakka redemptor as ultramarines it's throwing 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 4's or 18 S5 Ap-1 Hitting on 3's
Iron Hands 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 3's rerolling 1's
Repulsor
Ultramarines at best gains the Ap-1 of devistator doctrine for turn 1 but turn 2 onwards gains 0
Iron hands Ap-1 Re-roll 1's
That's qithout taking into account the 6+++ FNP or the double wounds for damage table abilities.
Not even in the same ballpark dude. Even If chapters could start in their desired doctrine Iron Hands would still be preferable. It's an absolute joke of balance. The internal balance with the codex with gman in it before was probably better. Fantastic work GW. FANTASTIC. Real great rules writing. Lets take the ultras special trait they have to wait to turn 2 to get and give it to Ironhands on turn 1 buffing weapons that are buffed on turn 1 and not 2. To the army with the best army trait in the entirety of the game. Lets also give them additional defensive buffs that ALL marines have been crying for since forever. Blue Ironhands...here I come.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/09/09 19:33:56
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Don't worry. I like this crazy train. By the time they get around to GK it will be something truly jaw dropping like:
All Psykic tests succeed on a 1 if there is a Palladin withing 6". All Strike squads now get an extra 12 attacks with their thunder hammers if the models are painted. When your warlord is Kaldor Draigo, all GK within 72" become GMDKs.
Seriously. This is getting silly. The first things were kinda wow, then they released stuff that was borderline meta breaking, now we have this. And still a couple more codexes after this!
Yea, baby! Rock the hyperbole! Ain't nothing stopping you now!
Yeah, nothing in these rules has really screamed 'op' just 'really good' better pricing, better design, hoops to jump through if you want specific bonuses.
It's not at all meta breaking, it's just gonna shift things around a bit.
2019/09/09 19:34:47
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Slaul wrote: I think the fact that there is such a debate between whether heavy or tactical is better means that there are interesting choices available now and it gives players the ability to pick a phase to prioritize and not get penalized by not picking the "best".
There is no debate. The best weapons are heavy weapons because they have range and they start getting buffed on turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 19:35:44
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/09/09 19:36:18
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
My iron hands will be black. With iron hands transfers. And iron hands forge world doors. I already own every type of dread except the vanilla (which I will be buying shortly ). Can't wait for this supplement!
2019/09/09 19:36:30
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Target prioritization is important. But aggressors don't have to not assault. THey can still choose to. And if I know your going to be putting the firepower into them, it does give options.
2019/09/09 19:39:34
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i think that ultramarines are stronger than IH, at least until now.
The devastator doctrine is nice, but the strongest doctrine for marines is the tactical one. Who cares if a lascannon gets an extra -1 AP, it's the additional -1 on bolter weapons which is truly scary.
Really
I'll take a dakka redemptor as ultramarines it's throwing 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 4's or 18 S5 Ap-1 Hitting on 3's
Iron Hands 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 3's rerolling 1's
Repulsor
Ultramarines at best gains the Ap-1 of devistator doctrine for turn 1 but turn 2 onwards gains 0
Iron hands Ap-1 Re-roll 1's
That's qithout taking into account the 6+++ FNP or the double wounds for damage table abilities.
Not even in the same ballpark dude. Even If chapters could start in their desired doctrine Iron Hands would still be preferable. It's an absolute joke of balance. The internal balance with the codex with gman in it before was probably better. Fantastic work GW. FANTASTIC. Real great rules writing. Lets take the ultras special trait they have to wait to turn 2 to get and give it to Ironhands on turn 1 buffing weapons that are buffed on turn 1 and not 2. To the army with the best army trait in the entirety of the game. Lets also give them additional defensive buffs that ALL marines have been crying for since forever. Blue Ironhands...here I come.
I just hope GW actually realise that it's the traits not the units that are meta breaking before they nerf all my dreadnaughts into unplayable overcosted trash as I don't play Iron hands.
Like they did with codex 1.0
2019/09/09 19:40:04
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i think that ultramarines are stronger than IH, at least until now.
The devastator doctrine is nice, but the strongest doctrine for marines is the tactical one. Who cares if a lascannon gets an extra -1 AP, it's the additional -1 on bolter weapons which is truly scary.
Really
I'll take a dakka redemptor as ultramarines it's throwing 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 4's or 18 S5 Ap-1 Hitting on 3's
Iron Hands 18 S5 Ap-2 1d shots hitting on 3's rerolling 1's
Repulsor
Ultramarines at best gains the Ap-1 of devistator doctrine for turn 1 but turn 2 onwards gains 0
Iron hands Ap-1 Re-roll 1's
That's qithout taking into account the 6+++ FNP or the double wounds for damage table abilities.
Not even in the same ballpark dude. Even If chapters could start in their desired doctrine Iron Hands would still be preferable. It's an absolute joke of balance. The internal balance with the codex with gman in it before was probably better. Fantastic work GW. FANTASTIC. Real great rules writing. Lets take the ultras special trait they have to wait to turn 2 to get and give it to Ironhands on turn 1 buffing weapons that are buffed on turn 1 and not 2. To the army with the best army trait in the entirety of the game. Lets also give them additional defensive buffs that ALL marines have been crying for since forever. Blue Ironhands...here I come.
Ironhands get literally no benefit from bringing any rapid fire or assault weapons and (without stratagem help) will never have even the option to use the assault doctrine.
They also don't get the ridiculous bevy of powerful named characters ultras do.
Ironhands are great and I would agree that as of now they're the best Chapter overall, but it's not a huge margin and your histrionics are frankly embarrassing.
2019/09/09 19:40:25
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
I dunno, the Invuln saves to vehicles, the regenerating wounds, and the vehicle friendly psyker abilities, IH with executioners and Repulsors are going to be UGLY. That essentially makes the Repulsor variants extremely hard to remove, and even harder to withstand.
2019/09/09 19:43:27
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Vaktathi wrote: Man they're really going all in on the bloat now.
Queue the "It'S nOt BlOaT iT's FlAvOr" crowd defending the Angels having different codices.
I'm not a fan of the new Space Marine special rules enhancements [and not just because my marines doesn't get them.]
When it comes to infantry, I would much rather have kept the regular statline without bolterdrill or shock assault or doctrines or whatever and just taken a points cost reduction on the infantry.
First off, I don't like the addition of AP. AP on troop-level weapons just really makes them more effective against other 3+ targets and vehicle targets but doesn't really offer a proportional benefit against light infantry units, which is where I think the problem actually lies; and MEQ units didn't need a greater proliferation of AP on the field [and widespread AP-2 is probably the last thing MEQ wants to find on the field].
Second, and more significantly: I don't really care about Grey Hunters or Intercessors with bolters,they really just exist to eat bullets and take objectives. A points savings on the units would go towards bringing more upgrades, more answers, and more units to have a more comprehensive force than a super troops squad that can heavily damage tanks with their assault rifles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 19:44:03
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/09/09 19:44:03
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Don't worry. I like this crazy train. By the time they get around to GK it will be something truly jaw dropping like:
All Psykic tests succeed on a 1 if there is a Palladin withing 6". All Strike squads now get an extra 12 attacks with their thunder hammers if the models are painted. When your warlord is Kaldor Draigo, all GK within 72" become GMDKs.
Seriously. This is getting silly. The first things were kinda wow, then they released stuff that was borderline meta breaking, now we have this. And still a couple more codexes after this!
Yea, baby! Rock the hyperbole! Ain't nothing stopping you now!
Yeah, nothing in these rules has really screamed 'op' just 'really good' better pricing, better design, hoops to jump through if you want specific bonuses.
It's not at all meta breaking, it's just gonna shift things around a bit.
I don't consider surrounding an Iron Stone chapter master with dreads and repulsors to collect serpent shields to be "jumping through hoops"
The potential to break the meta is absolutely there, the new book buffed marine damage output across the board to an absurd degree, leaving their durability their only weakness, which the iron hands solved. With the new chapter master granting full rerolls, not even stacking -1 to hit will do much against them.
2019/09/09 19:45:49
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
The Newman wrote: The fact that it's a special character and not a "Khan on a Bike" generic is very much a disappointment, but that has everything to do with local meta for me. We pretty much all agree to not play the special characters since so many of them break game balance over their knee like so much Batman.
No special characters is a really bad rule to adopt. Many armies require special characters to function.
Name three.
(That's a legitimate question, nobody around here seems to care.)
Saint Celestine, Guillaman pre-codex, Shrike precodex, Cawl
2019/09/09 19:50:22
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
The Newman wrote: The fact that it's a special character and not a "Khan on a Bike" generic is very much a disappointment, but that has everything to do with local meta for me. We pretty much all agree to not play the special characters since so many of them break game balance over their knee like so much Batman.
No special characters is a really bad rule to adopt. Many armies require special characters to function.
Name three.
(That's a legitimate question, nobody around here seems to care.)
Saint Celestine, Guillaman pre-codex, Shrike precodex, Cawl
IIRC you also have to have one of the Ynnari characters to make the detachment Ynnari, whether you want them or not. Also, I'd say Trajan Valoris is almost a must-have for Custodes if you're playing more than 3xDawneagle Captain Supreme Command since he brings like the only wound support in the book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/09 19:51:12
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!