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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


CSM, as well as all other marines, need to be brought up to the same standard for regular marine units as the new Codex Marines.


Disagree. CSM are heretics. They don't do doctrines.

But CSM ought to be the highest priority for it because they are bigger, have more players


Citation needed.

units that are now very weak compared to their loyalist counterparts


Citation needed.

- Centurions just got the same number of wounds as obliterators. They pay 70 to the oblit's 115, have worse guns (for that loadout), no invulnerable, no melee weapon, and no deepstrike. Alternatively they pay 110 for grav & 2 lc, which is certainly still not as solid as assault 6 battle cannon shots.
- There is no equivalent to the disco lord.
- Apostles are way more reliable.
- CSM still have largely better spells available though White Scars challenges that a bit so far.
- MoE is a dirt cheap beatstick with no minus to hit.
- Havocs got T5. IH stole their move and shoot, but I don't really care that much as they also need to be monodex.

They don't need a new book, but they do need new Legion traits and something like doctrines.


Traits, sure, but really just some bits that can also apply to vehicles and mono-dex bonuses and we're good.


I do not believe that you do not know that I'm talking about Chaos Marine squads and Terminators. And duh they don't do doctrines, which is why I said 'something like'. CSM and Tacs are supposed to be similar and equivalent units. Basic marines have been garbage all of 8th. Now they've fixed some of them, and they need to fix the rest.

And I'm not responding to the rest of this because we do this in every thread and I think you're just baiting at this point.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





- Centurions just got the same number of wounds as obliterators. They pay 70 to the oblit's 115, have worse guns (for that loadout), no invulnerable, no melee weapon, and no deepstrike. Alternatively they pay 110 for grav & 2 lc, which is certainly still not as solid as assault 6 battle cannon shots.


So you find it good that you pay more for less reliability?

- There is no equivalent to the disco lord.


Lazy excuse is lazy, or are we forgetting that Daemon engines are something distinctly CHaos, whilest SM got other distinct unit types?

- Apostles are way more reliable.


And cost more and have no access to bikes or jumppacks, ergo making them rather poor choice. Also reliability costs additinoal points and CP, you were saying?

- CSM still have largely better spells available though White Scars challenges that a bit so far.

I heavily doubt that due to the nature of what is seen.

- MoE is a dirt cheap beatstick with no minus to hit.


It's also a beatstick no one uses, because it's yet ANOTHER beatstick in an army that has NO shortcomings in having better Beatsticks allready. It's a waste of a model, should've been an aspiring champion kit.

- Havocs got T5. IH stole their move and shoot, but I don't really care that much as they also need to be monodex.

Havocs also lost their ablative wounds, which made them propperly playable and not just a unit dependant on an ALpha strike and then instantly dying afterwards.
It's also still a w1 marine body so make of that what you want.

Additionally now the basic CSM costs more then a Tac marine?
And there is nothing to fill the Troop gap somewhat decently now thanks to the tripple nerf cultists took.

So basically all CSM are is soup component for cheap termites, the occaisonal sorcerer and obliterators with slaanesh double shooting or purge rerolls and the occaisonal Discolord pack because one Discolord doesn't even work thanks to T6 and no charachter protection.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 07:21:58


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Eipi10 wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yes?

There's CSM, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sisters of Battle, vehicle units as a broad category, some Eldar units, etc. And even then, the mirror match matters a lot.

The proliferation of AP2 is, in my opinion, terrible for the balance of toughness, armor, and wounds as metrics of resilience. A fundamental principle of AP is that the more armor you have, the more you're affected by a point of AP. Guardsmen or Orks have paper for armor, and their resilience comes from wound count in the unit, they don't really feel the additional AP. Marine units, however, feel the AP a lot more. Armor is already the weakest defense mode, and wounds is already the strongest; proliferating AP, especially AP2, further encourages massed light infantry and units that have a high wound density over units with armor.

The relative difference between the way a Space Marine and a Guardsmen felt against a Boltgun wound between this edition and last edition was a matter of a Guardsman taking 200% more wounds. Now, Guardsmen take only 100% more wounds by default, and when you start introducing AP it drop to 66% more and then 50% more.

This is also further affecting vehicle unit's relative immunity to light arms. Vehicle's armor saves are already a formality against AT systems and only really existed to neutralize the effect of infantry against them; and AP-2 infantry is also dismantling that.

I think the solution should have been a measure that improve Marine's troops' offensive and defensive capabilities against light troops without seriously affecting heavy infantry units. This is hard to actually find a special-rules based solution, because wounds and shots are the "base value" and effectively the most important factors and will almost always be less affected than systems relying on quality. Quality effects improve the value of each shot or wound, but they don't substitute for more wounds or shots.

So really all these new AP rules will only make marine armies even more fragile against each other, rip GK DA BA SW CSM. I have SS as a DW player, but they can only do so much. I can't think of a good rule to fix durability either. A FNP for marines is the best solution I can come up with, and that's a pretty bad solution. It only increases the quantity of wounds in a statistical manner, and that doesn't address the real problem. Unless the real problem is that marines have too few wounds to manage given the current game rules. Custodes have a baseline of 3 wounds, and that is before a good invuln and a FNP during the psychic phase.

Points cuts for marines is probably the worst solution, marines at an all-time low price (tacs used to be 15 points each) and it turns them into guardsmen who've eaten an extra protein bar. If you don't want angles of death style rules, then marines need basic statline changes.


I don't see why there's a problem with points cost reductions. Reducing the cost both improves the viability of bringing large numbers of Marine infantry [saturation] or leaves more space for toys like tanks or plasma guns or thunder hammer WGPL's. Fundamentally, if the unit is cheap, I can buy capability if it needs it in the form of sergeant power swords, plasmaguns, or WGPL's with hammers; and if I don't need the capability they can be cheap and no drag on my army when they're sitting in the back on an objective or getting blasted off the board while trying to take a forward objective. If the unit is expensive, I can't make them less capable if my plan for them doesn't require that capability, and I also can't afford the capability I really want [wolf guard pack leaders with hammers, or multiple plasmaguns], because instead a bunch of points went towards trying to enforce a 3 guardsmen to 1 marine equivalency rate when the profile's been devalued to about 2 to 2.5 guardsmen per marine.

The thing is, whenever I prep a new Space Wolves list, I wind up at 2k points and half the stuff I wanted to/was planning to have, because everything is so damn expensive. I would like less heroism, more efficiency, because I'm not expecting heroism out of cannon-fodder grade units and HQ's who won't be getting near the fight because they're buffing mostly immobile heavy weapons bearers and cheap tanks and would like to instead be able to buy and extra Long Fang squad or something so I don't have to worry about the one I have being zonked, or more cheap IFV's.

Appreciably, all of these random rules went towards making Marines killier, which IMO wasn't the problem, so much as their resilience was really poor for a troop choice and their support units were really glass cannony. All the tanks are T7 and can be fairly easily harassed or inconvenienced by infantry arms. I think fixing it would have been properly re-assessing a marine's actual worth, as opposed to trying to make him worth the cost they're charging.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 07:44:10


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





problerm is that Marines aren't supposed to be a hoard army. shaving them down too many points risk them just being a hoard army. I do think that giving marines extra abilities that allow them to synergize together better is a good idea.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

BrianDavion wrote:
problerm is that Marines aren't supposed to be a hoard army. shaving them down too many points risk them just being a hoard army. I do think that giving marines extra abilities that allow them to synergize together better is a good idea.


All of this is only necessary because GW got their stats wrong from the start of 8th. They needed to change marine stats in line with other system mechanic changes. If they had a slightly better statline and their weapons had slightly better stats, then it wouldn't be necessary to stack so many special rules up.

The advantage of stacking so many special rules is that it means you can have more variety between different types of marines, which is good. I'm not complaining about how this has turned out. I hope the new marine codex will be the new norm, and that other armies will be brought up to that standard too.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Breton wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
I'm glad to see that after the Repulsor Executioner being better than a Neutron Onager, it's their Techmarines being better at repairing than actual Techpriests.

What's the point in playing anything other than Marines now? They have all codices combined at this point.


Price per model. The new rules are really good, but Marines still wind up outnumbered by a lot against the average army and they're still really fragile per point. They feel like they have the 'hammer' part of 'glass hammer' now, but the 'glass' part is still there too.


Marines are meant to be outnumbered, there are only 1 million across the galaxy. I would be weird if they played like guardsmen with an extra protein bar, and they seemed pretty close to reaching that point at times (12 point marines, scouts replacing tacticals). That being said, I do agree that marines have more than enough killing power while they lack durability and movement.
I wonder if a 7" movement stat, a minimum advance of 2-3", or even new transports would help their movement in a balanced way (but I haven't played with implusors or the new drop pod rule). And I'm not sure what can be done for their durability. +1 wounds would be excessive even with the appropriate points hike. Other statline modifications wouldn't work and rerolling armor saves or adding a FNP would require too much die rolling.
But I play DW, so my marines are meant to be glass cannons and maybe that disqualifies my thoughts.


Guard get 10 T3 wounds, and 20 shots for 10 hits, and ~5/3 wounding hits (vs T3/T4) for 40 points of troop infantry. They also get (some) ObSec Tanks.

For 40 points, Marines get... 3 T4 wounds, and 6 shots, 3 hits, 2/1.5 wounding hits or 4 wounds, 4 shots, 2.5 hits, a little less than 2/1.5 wounding troop models. Start making the Tactical Maine a 2-3 wound model, a Primaris a 3-4 wound model, and Bolters Rapid Fire 2, Storm Bolters Rapid Fire 4 and then it starts getting into an interesting model count vs potency per model trade-off. The same weapons that are useful vs a horde should be as useful vs an elite troop squad. You take a Tactical Marine squad, and stick them up against an equivalent points Guard squadS, and the tactical squad loses long before you start hiding ablative-wound-protected plasma guns. Point for point Marines are both less cannon and less durable than guardsmen. Vs 0 AP, 40 points, 10 guard wounds is 13.333 wounds with saving a third i.e. 3.333 will have to be wounded twice.. plus 10, 13.3333. 3/4 3+ save wounds are 5/6 and some change. the difference between T3 vs T4 in a world of bolters, shootas, pulse, Gauss/Tesla, and their equivalents is pretty meaningless.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. I said Marines still have an issue with durability and you seem to be countering with an argument about how Marines aren't very durable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 09:25:01


   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Breton wrote:
Guard get 10 T3 wounds, and 20 shots for 10 hits, and ~5/3 wounding hits (vs T3/T4) for 40 points of troop infantry. They also get (some) ObSec Tanks.
For 40 points, Marines get... 3 T4 wounds, and 6 shots, 3 hits, 2/1.5 wounding hits or 4 wounds, 4 shots, 2.5 hits, a little less than 2/1.5 wounding troop models.
Guard have been borked ever since the start of 8th edition when GW didn't update stats and costs to match their new weapon rules. At 4 points they should have had an armour save of 7+ (6+ at a push).

10 guard vs marines are 1.1 wounds after saves, 3 marines vs guard are 2.67 wounds before saves, or 1.78 after - the save really changes things. Though it is also notable that the removal of templates and blast markers in 8th directly benefits armies with higher model counts as they can compress their units to maximize fire - there is no consequence to bunching stuff up to get a whole squad into rapid fire range.

Given the cost/price hike to cultists, conscripts, and all the 'not guard' i'm guessing GW knows where they went wrong and have chosen not to fix it.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.


Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
either one or the other would've been fairer.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Not Online!!! wrote:
Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
Because cheap, screening, CP-generating troops choices are quite valuable in 8th.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





A.T. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
Because cheap, screening, CP-generating troops choices are quite valuable in 8th.


Considering that cp Generation is better done by csm now, even though they still are 13 pts for whatever reason, i still find that hillarious.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.


Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
either one or the other would've been fairer.
Yes, why should an Assault rifle that fires RPGs be able to shoot through a basic flak vest? Why indeed...

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that cp Generation is better done by csm now, even though they still are 13 pts for whatever reason, i still find that hillarious.
Thus demonstrating that it's the guard who are out of shape more than the marines, even without the layer upon layer upon layer of extra rules they are currently getting.

I feel bad for new/returning players facing the litany of bonus special abilities being used to fix the symptom of the problems created day 1 with GW sticking to unsuitable past edition statlines.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.


Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
either one or the other would've been fairer.
Yes, why should an Assault rifle that fires RPGs be able to shoot through a basic flak vest? Why indeed...


Because a flak vest will save you in case of indirect fire.
Sure, if you are hit straight on you are fine red mist, but the shrapnel of something being hit by that near you will be stopped by the vest, so a 5+ is a correct representation.

Also, the fact that guards outshoot marines point by point is old math now heavily wrong.
Nowadays a tac marine costs 12 ponts and has shock attack and bolter drill. It will shred guards point per point, and let's not talk about intercessors.
Sure, if you just put them standing still at 12" you will lose (with tacs, not with intercessors) but why would you ever do that???
It's like saying that a kabalite with a blaster pistol outshoots a leman russ command tank point per point, so the tank is underpowered. Range matters.

If you pit 10 tacs against 3 infantry squads (equal points), the math easilly shows that the 10 tacs kill 24 points of guards (plus morale), while the guards kill 18 points of marines. If you factor in cover, this becomes hugely skewed in favor of the marines. This is balanced by the fact that marines are more susceptible to bigger weapons, so after all this buffs, marines are absolutely on the same level of guards when it comes to shoot outs between basic troops (which is a useless analysis, but since it was thrown in here i wanted to rectify the mistakes).

   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





A.T. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that cp Generation is better done by csm now, even though they still are 13 pts for whatever reason, i still find that hillarious.
Thus demonstrating that it's the guard who are out of shape more than the marines, even without the layer upon layer upon layer of extra rules they are currently getting.

I feel bad for new/returning players facing the litany of bonus special abilities being used to fix the symptom of the problems created day 1 with GW sticking to unsuitable past edition statlines.

No it's just basic marines should generate one cp per squad taken like RC do, on top of detachments.
That solved the issue for Chaos.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.


Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
either one or the other would've been fairer.
Yes, why should an Assault rifle that fires RPGs be able to shoot through a basic flak vest? Why indeed...


Because a flak vest will save you in case of indirect fire.
Sure, if you are hit straight on you are fine red mist, but the shrapnel of something being hit by that near you will be stopped by the vest, so a 5+ is a correct representation.

Also, the fact that guards outshoot marines point by point is old math now heavily wrong.
Nowadays a tac marine costs 12 ponts and has shock attack and bolter drill. It will shred guards point per point, and let's not talk about intercessors.
Sure, if you just put them standing still at 12" you will lose (with tacs, not with intercessors) but why would you ever do that???
It's like saying that a kabalite with a blaster pistol outshoots a leman russ command tank point per point, so the tank is underpowered. Range matters.

If you pit 10 tacs against 3 infantry squads (equal points), the math easilly shows that the 10 tacs kill 24 points of guards (plus morale), while the guards kill 18 points of marines. If you factor in cover, this becomes hugely skewed in favor of the marines. This is balanced by the fact that marines are more susceptible to bigger weapons, so after all this buffs, marines are absolutely on the same level of guards when it comes to shoot outs between basic troops (which is a useless analysis, but since it was thrown in here i wanted to rectify the mistakes).



Also this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 10:46:09


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

Having seen the Iron Hands snippets on Warhammer Community they are looking like the strongest chapter thus far.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

So what you're saying is that, if I roll a hit against a Guardsman, they should not be allowed a save. Got it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Having seen the Iron Hands snippets on Warhammer Community they are looking like the strongest chapter thus far.
First their vehicles were tough as nails. Now they shoot insanely well too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 10:48:39


5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





A.T. wrote:
Breton wrote:
Guard get 10 T3 wounds, and 20 shots for 10 hits, and ~5/3 wounding hits (vs T3/T4) for 40 points of troop infantry. They also get (some) ObSec Tanks.
For 40 points, Marines get... 3 T4 wounds, and 6 shots, 3 hits, 2/1.5 wounding hits or 4 wounds, 4 shots, 2.5 hits, a little less than 2/1.5 wounding troop models.
Guard have been borked ever since the start of 8th edition when GW didn't update stats and costs to match their new weapon rules. At 4 points they should have had an armour save of 7+ (6+ at a push).

10 guard vs marines are 1.1 wounds after saves, 3 marines vs guard are 2.67 wounds before saves, or 1.78 after - the save really changes things. Though it is also notable that the removal of templates and blast markers in 8th directly benefits armies with higher model counts as they can compress their units to maximize fire - there is no consequence to bunching stuff up to get a whole squad into rapid fire range.

Given the cost/price hike to cultists, conscripts, and all the 'not guard' i'm guessing GW knows where they went wrong and have chosen not to fix it.


Using your math, after 3 turns the marines are dead, and only half the guard are. - I never said the Armor save didn't matter - in fact I included it. Guard save 1/3 of their wounds before AP - thus 10 guard with 10 wounds costing 40 points actually have roughly 13.333 wounds. 3 Marines with a 3+ save 67% so 3 marines with 3 wounds also costing roughly 40 points have roughly 5 wounds.

Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.

My Terminators would be laughing if they hadn't been crying since second. And if Guard infantry wasn't already good. Most of this game is balanced on points. A couple key things are not. Horde armies win Objective Secured and CP Generation. The Loyal 32 costs about the same as just ONE marine troop choice. CP Generation should be points spent/game size and not vary between horde/elite armies.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So what you're saying is that, if I roll a hit against a Guardsman, they should not be allowed a save. Got it.
Welcome to every edition except 8th.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that cp Generation is better done by csm now, even though they still are 13 pts for whatever reason, i still find that hillarious.
Thus demonstrating that it's the guard who are out of shape more than the marines, even without the layer upon layer upon layer of extra rules they are currently getting.

I feel bad for new/returning players facing the litany of bonus special abilities being used to fix the symptom of the problems created day 1 with GW sticking to unsuitable past edition statlines.

No it's just basic marines should generate one cp per squad taken like RC do, on top of detachments.
That solved the issue for Chaos.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh noes the bolter doesn't negate the armor of guard automatically anymore. Schock and horror.

Imagine for one edition basic guard infantry be good.


Altough i still wonder why cultists got the hike and removal of traits.
either one or the other would've been fairer.
Yes, why should an Assault rifle that fires RPGs be able to shoot through a basic flak vest? Why indeed...


Because a flak vest will save you in case of indirect fire.
Sure, if you are hit straight on you are fine red mist, but the shrapnel of something being hit by that near you will be stopped by the vest, so a 5+ is a correct representation.

Also, the fact that guards outshoot marines point by point is old math now heavily wrong.
Nowadays a tac marine costs 12 ponts and has shock attack and bolter drill. It will shred guards point per point, and let's not talk about intercessors.
Sure, if you just put them standing still at 12" you will lose (with tacs, not with intercessors) but why would you ever do that???
It's like saying that a kabalite with a blaster pistol outshoots a leman russ command tank point per point, so the tank is underpowered. Range matters.

If you pit 10 tacs against 3 infantry squads (equal points), the math easilly shows that the 10 tacs kill 24 points of guards (plus morale), while the guards kill 18 points of marines. If you factor in cover, this becomes hugely skewed in favor of the marines. This is balanced by the fact that marines are more susceptible to bigger weapons, so after all this buffs, marines are absolutely on the same level of guards when it comes to shoot outs between basic troops (which is a useless analysis, but since it was thrown in here i wanted to rectify the mistakes).



Also this.

No it didn't solve the problem for Chaos Marines. It just means you're taking Red Corsairs for CP.
Chaos Marines are still useless and that's partly due to them being written like Spiky Marines. Overhaul is needed ASAP.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It just occured to me that a Marine thread went five whole pages before someone complained about Guard outshooting Marines. That's got to be a new record for 8th ed.

   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





No it didn't solve the problem for Chaos Marines. It just means you're taking Red Corsairs for CP.
Chaos Marines are still useless and that's partly due to them being written like Spiky Marines. Overhaul is needed ASAP.


But my fellow player, as an iron warrior i am atm at the blissfull state of bitter, no need all things are in order and we are allready updated.

/bitter sarcasm and irony off.

Look at it from this way, you get a CP battery that is actually effective and rewards you for picking 3 x 5 CSM. That is more reason that ever existed in Chaos for a long time.
AND THAT IS GOOD.

The issue comes down that CSM, even though mostly legionaires, don't reward big squads.
Or not appropriately.
Add to that stratagems that make all other versions and legions that can't use them overpriced by virtue of existing and you get the bloody BS that we have now.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Grey Knights and Deathwatch and CSM already need a massive rework anyway.


Already? CSM got new books only a few months ago.


CSM didn't get nearly as many yummy treats as codex marines did so some think CSMs need revamps to get everything codex marines do.

They need a revamp as they're just being written as mirrors to the Loyalist codex except worse. They need to be written as Legions again compared to the garbage that 4th-most of 7th brought. The Legion Supplement at the end of 7th was a good start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
No it didn't solve the problem for Chaos Marines. It just means you're taking Red Corsairs for CP.
Chaos Marines are still useless and that's partly due to them being written like Spiky Marines. Overhaul is needed ASAP.


But my fellow player, as an iron warrior i am atm at the blissfull state of bitter, no need all things are in order and we are allready updated.

/bitter sarcasm and irony off.

Look at it from this way, you get a CP battery that is actually effective and rewards you for picking 3 x 5 CSM. That is more reason that ever existed in Chaos for a long time.
AND THAT IS GOOD.

The issue comes down that CSM, even though mostly legionaires, don't reward big squads.
Or not appropriately.
Add to that stratagems that make all other versions and legions that can't use them overpriced by virtue of existing and you get the bloody BS that we have now.

It really isn't that effective. You're effectively paying 105 points more compared to the Cultists because you're forced into the Chaincannon (from a new kit, look at that!)

Otherwise even when using Red Corsairs I still have no good reason to use the Chaos Marine entry. Don't even get me started on the whole "Legionnaire" thing and them not being Vets at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 11:18:56


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak






It really isn't that effective. You're effectively paying 105 points more compared to the Cultists because you're forced into the Chaincannon (from a new kit, look at that!)

Otherwise even when using Red Corsairs I still have no good reason to use the Chaos Marine entry. Don't even get me started on the whole "Legionnaire" thing and them not being Vets at all.

The chaincannon imo is a trap choice.
Especially since the bodies don't support it good enough.

And yes it is an effective choice, nearly reaching guard levels pts/CP wise. (and mone CSM are about as CP hungry as it gets.)

Altough a legion book would be appreciated.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:

It really isn't that effective. You're effectively paying 105 points more compared to the Cultists because you're forced into the Chaincannon (from a new kit, look at that!)

Otherwise even when using Red Corsairs I still have no good reason to use the Chaos Marine entry. Don't even get me started on the whole "Legionnaire" thing and them not being Vets at all.

The chaincannon imo is a trap choice.
Especially since the bodies don't support it good enough.

And yes it is an effective choice, nearly reaching guard levels pts/CP wise. (and mone CSM are about as CP hungry as it gets.)

Altough a legion book would be appreciated.

Honestly based on the fact we can get more effective objective holders from Cultists and still get fine enough CP, I don't think it's an effective defense for the Chaos Marine entry. Even having tried it out, I'm still out of CP early and they don't help outside me maybe getting 1 or 2 more Strats out of it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
No it didn't solve the problem for Chaos Marines. It just means you're taking Red Corsairs for CP.
Chaos Marines are still useless and that's partly due to them being written like Spiky Marines. Overhaul is needed ASAP.


But my fellow player, as an iron warrior i am atm at the blissfull state of bitter, no need all things are in order and we are allready updated.

/bitter sarcasm and irony off.

Look at it from this way, you get a CP battery that is actually effective and rewards you for picking 3 x 5 CSM. That is more reason that ever existed in Chaos for a long time.
AND THAT IS GOOD.

The issue comes down that CSM, even though mostly legionaires, don't reward big squads.
Or not appropriately.
Add to that stratagems that make all other versions and legions that can't use them overpriced by virtue of existing and you get the bloody BS that we have now.

Hasn't someone in the "studio" said that they don't see choas as a marine centric list it should be a leader, his warriors and hangers on?
GW has their vision of choas which is a massive mixed force, the issue is mix and match, min maxing leads to not patchwork armies being underpowered. While buffing all the parts makes the patchwork quilt OP

I doubt you'll see what your asking for as GW doesn't see choas marine's as being that poor because they still do appear in top lists, maybe not what you would call choas marine's but GW won't be delving into each unit in each list.

They will probably finish marines then move onto GK if they have finally figured out a way to fix them.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





The Newman wrote:
It just occured to me that a Marine thread went five whole pages before someone complained about Guard outshooting Marines. That's got to be a new record for 8th ed.


It just occured to me, we almost went a whole page without a guard player misconstruing the point into whining about Guard, not the generic horde vs elite balance issues. PS, I'm a guard player too. Its one of the reasons I use them for an example. I know them better than Orks. I play a little bit of everything. I want everything to be relatively equally good.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
No it didn't solve the problem for Chaos Marines. It just means you're taking Red Corsairs for CP.
Chaos Marines are still useless and that's partly due to them being written like Spiky Marines. Overhaul is needed ASAP.


But my fellow player, as an iron warrior i am atm at the blissfull state of bitter, no need all things are in order and we are allready updated.

/bitter sarcasm and irony off.

Look at it from this way, you get a CP battery that is actually effective and rewards you for picking 3 x 5 CSM. That is more reason that ever existed in Chaos for a long time.
AND THAT IS GOOD.

The issue comes down that CSM, even though mostly legionaires, don't reward big squads.
Or not appropriately.
Add to that stratagems that make all other versions and legions that can't use them overpriced by virtue of existing and you get the bloody BS that we have now.

Hasn't someone in the "studio" said that they don't see choas as a marine centric list it should be a leader, his warriors and hangers on?
GW has their vision of choas which is a massive mixed force, the issue is mix and match, min maxing leads to not patchwork armies being underpowered. While buffing all the parts makes the patchwork quilt OP

I doubt you'll see what your asking for as GW doesn't see choas marine's as being that poor because they still do appear in top lists, maybe not what you would call choas marine's but GW won't be delving into each unit in each list.

They will probably finish marines then move onto GK if they have finally figured out a way to fix them.

I agree with whoever that guy in the studio is. Chaos Marines are these hard asses from the Heresy, and therefore should be more dangerous individuals.

However they didn't execute it. Chosen should've been the troop choice from the getgo and the basic Chaos Marine entry deleted for good. Everyone should've had Vet stats at minimum.
Wanna represent Renegades? It should've been done with the basic Marine book with a page on how to switch keywords. Huron and his Red Corsairs are counted as White Scars successors for their rules.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





And I don't because that only represents warbands of former legion members, not the legions themselves.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
And I don't because that only represents warbands of former legion members, not the legions themselves.

You're gonna have to expand on the post because I don't get the point you're making.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
And I don't because that only represents warbands of former legion members, not the legions themselves.

You're gonna have to expand on the post because I don't get the point you're making.


WB, IW, bl and al fight not as individuals f.e
Ergo they are not warriors + hangers on?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
 
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