Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I never go Heavy Flamers for the Levi. Heavy Bolters mesh better with the preferred range unless you're going melee.

I don't believe you have a choice or I am doing something wrong.

Correct. A Relic Leviathan cannot have Heavy Bolters.

OH I'm thinking Deredeo. My bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

With rerolls its dead. 50% hit. 50% wound with reroll 1's you'll get 6 wounds. AP-3 in dev doct. So you take 10 wounds making one 6+ save. Then 7 heavy flamer shots 3 wounds at AP -2. Probably take 12 wounds or more. So more than half the time it kills a rhino in overwatch. Plus it would still need to survive a round of combat. And I think we've seen a stratagem it can fall back and shoot on for 2 CP.

Eh?

20 * .388 * .5 * .833 * 2 = 6.5
7 * .333 * .5 = 1.2

It's possible to kill the rhino, but average seems to leave it on 2 wounds. Not the safest thing ever obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I never go Heavy Flamers for the Levi. Heavy Bolters mesh better with the preferred range unless you're going melee.

I don't believe you have a choice or I am doing something wrong.

No HBs for Levi - maybe the chaos one?

I'm not sure what math you are doing there. You should be averaging 11 hits with 5.5 wounds before reroll 1's. So basically 6 wounds after reroll 1's. That is already enough to kill it with ap-3 before heavy flamers which will average 1-2 wounds.

Ahhh I think I know what you are doing wrong now. The rhino will have a 6+ save if the levi is in dev doctrine (it will never leave this doctrine all game lol)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OH I'm thinking Deredeo. My bad.

Yeah I would totally take the cheapest option available - it just has to take heavy flamers in 40k. It add 30 something points to the unit (which still keeps it at quite OP levels)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

6+ fnp has been around since thr beginning of 8th(well, lots longer and with better rolls previously); it is pretty good, but not really fame breaking. As you showed: ups the survivability by 2 wounds in this case.

Half damage strat is only for the phase(or maybe turn) that the strat is popped; and only going to effect multi-damage wounds(effectively doubling the shots required for the same damage that phase). This costs CPs, and isn't as borken as you might think.

The real gem is the character sitting behind it with an iron stone, -1 damage all the time for no CP cost.but all this really does on some cases is remove desire to supercharge the guns that potentially explode and keep heavy bolters as kings of anti-tank scratch damage(or any multi-shot S5-6 AP -1 1D weapons)

What your missing is that a non iron hands one doesn't double it's remaining wounds for it's damage table, doesn't have a 6+ FnP either.

The strategum on a non ironhands one takes it from 7 wounds to 14 to be bracketed and dead at 28 wounds.
Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change. And double with the same strategum. It's2 less wounds than killing a normal one would be just to bracket an iron hands model.

It is the sort of insane stacking that will see GW nerf the model into unplayable overcosted trash for anyone by ironhands to make it balanced for them.

Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

It is only 34 2+, 4++ T8 (T9) wounds to kill an iron hands one without the -1 damage relic. But you know what Iron hands arnt OP honest .

It's like they learned nothing with prophets of the flesh....
Oh 1 faction gets +1 T +1 Inv across the board and none of the others get used.....Really surprising.

The good news soon a new OP xenos codex will come out and I can play Blue ironhands without being that guy because I literally have to not get tabled.

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

Easier play, drive a rhino into the techmarine three inches from it hauling the uber-relic, and powerslide on the pile-in.

^Gangster. Now we're thinking in portals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change.

Sorry, I haven't seen the stratagem, but presumably its half damage rounding up? In which case 1D weapons aren't affected.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

Easier play, drive a rhino into the techmarine three inches from it hauling the uber-relic, and powerslide on the pile-in.

^Gangster. Now we're thinking in portals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change.

Sorry, I haven't seen the stratagem, but presumably its half damage rounding up? In which case 1D weapons aren't affected.

How many 1 damage S8 + weapons are you using?

Also just to be clear this isn't a leviathan specific problem the same numbers are also true for the redemptor dreadnaughts
7 and 14 vrs 12 and 24 to bracket with 13/26 to kill vrs 15/30.

If they do have double repair and wound generating psychic powers the only option is killing it in 1 round. People thought knights with rotate ion shield was OP bad.

If the relic for -1 damage stacks after halfing or they have a strategum/relic to improve their FNP to a 5+++, you better believe we'll see a new Iron hands and MW spam meta.

I really don't like the direction this is going. A bubble of unkillable tanks will probably be the optimal way to play Marines. Seems super boring.

And the balance will be completely fethed. IH vehicles being so insanely much better than vehicles of other chapters makes balancing impossible.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This Codex Cycle in a Nutshell

Spoiler:

It's almost good enough to make Marines viable again. Almost.

How much further to go until you think they will hit an almost 50% win rate, or whatever you define as viable? And what would help them reach that the most?

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

6+ fnp has been around since thr beginning of 8th(well, lots longer and with better rolls previously); it is pretty good, but not really fame breaking. As you showed: ups the survivability by 2 wounds in this case.

Half damage strat is only for the phase(or maybe turn) that the strat is popped; and only going to effect multi-damage wounds(effectively doubling the shots required for the same damage that phase). This costs CPs, and isn't as borken as you might think.

The real gem is the character sitting behind it with an iron stone, -1 damage all the time for no CP cost.but all this really does on some cases is remove desire to supercharge the guns that potentially explode and keep heavy bolters as kings of anti-tank scratch damage(or any multi-shot S5-6 AP -1 1D weapons)

What your missing is that a non iron hands one doesn't double it's remaining wounds for it's damage table, doesn't have a 6+ FnP either.

The strategum on a non ironhands one takes it from 7 wounds to 14 to be bracketed and dead at 28 wounds.
Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change. And double with the same strategum. It's2 less wounds than killing a normal one would be just to bracket an iron hands model.

It is the sort of insane stacking that will see GW nerf the model into unplayable overcosted trash for anyone by ironhands to make it balanced for them.

I'm not missing any of that.

I never said the IH buffed Levi wasn't better than any others; I said the strat costa CPs and will only effect the Levi for 1 phase/turn.

Tactical restraint means popping the strat on the Levi leaves the rest of the army available to die to your multidamage weapons.

I also talked about 6+ fnp... You quoted me doing so.

Yes double remaining wounds for chart is powerful, but that is not related to the strat, nor does it change death from a thousand cuts(hitting it with single-damage weapons, which are uneffected by the strat).

You keep conflating half-damage with doubling wounds. These are not the same thing. The IH levi under Duty Eternal can take more than twice as many Autocannon hits, true. But will still die at only 5/6 the rate of heavy bolter or assault cannon shots.

Hell, Hellblasters still eat these things for breakfast with either heavy plas incinerators or the normal plas incinerator. Anything that deals multiple mortal wounds will also take this thing down quickly.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

6+ fnp has been around since thr beginning of 8th(well, lots longer and with better rolls previously); it is pretty good, but not really fame breaking. As you showed: ups the survivability by 2 wounds in this case.

Half damage strat is only for the phase(or maybe turn) that the strat is popped; and only going to effect multi-damage wounds(effectively doubling the shots required for the same damage that phase). This costs CPs, and isn't as borken as you might think.

The real gem is the character sitting behind it with an iron stone, -1 damage all the time for no CP cost.but all this really does on some cases is remove desire to supercharge the guns that potentially explode and keep heavy bolters as kings of anti-tank scratch damage(or any multi-shot S5-6 AP -1 1D weapons)

What your missing is that a non iron hands one doesn't double it's remaining wounds for it's damage table, doesn't have a 6+ FnP either.

The strategum on a non ironhands one takes it from 7 wounds to 14 to be bracketed and dead at 28 wounds.
Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change. And double with the same strategum. It's2 less wounds than killing a normal one would be just to bracket an iron hands model.

It is the sort of insane stacking that will see GW nerf the model into unplayable overcosted trash for anyone by ironhands to make it balanced for them.

I'm not missing any of that.

I never said the IH buffed Levi wasn't better than any others; I said the strat costa CPs and will only effect the Levi for 1 phase/turn.

Tactical restraint means popping the strat on the Levi leaves the rest of the army available to die to your multidamage weapons.

I also talked about 6+ fnp... You quoted me doing so.

Yes double remaining wounds for chart is powerful, but that is not related to the strat, nor does it change death from a thousand cuts(hitting it with single-damage weapons, which are uneffected by the strat).

You keep conflating half-damage with doubling wounds. These are not the same thing. The IH levi under Duty Eternal can take more than twice as many Autocannon hits, true. But will still die at only 5/6 the rate of heavy bolter or assault cannon shots.

Hell, Hellblasters still eat these things for breakfast with either heavy plas incinerators or the normal plas incinerator. Anything that deals multiple mortal wounds will also take this thing down quickly.

Still not answered what single damage S8+ weapons are you packing on the regular?

Additionally I'm not claiming its outright OP it just insane stacking the benifits vrs any other chapter's. The survivability is different leagues.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

6+ fnp has been around since thr beginning of 8th(well, lots longer and with better rolls previously); it is pretty good, but not really fame breaking. As you showed: ups the survivability by 2 wounds in this case.

Half damage strat is only for the phase(or maybe turn) that the strat is popped; and only going to effect multi-damage wounds(effectively doubling the shots required for the same damage that phase). This costs CPs, and isn't as borken as you might think.

The real gem is the character sitting behind it with an iron stone, -1 damage all the time for no CP cost.but all this really does on some cases is remove desire to supercharge the guns that potentially explode and keep heavy bolters as kings of anti-tank scratch damage(or any multi-shot S5-6 AP -1 1D weapons)

What your missing is that a non iron hands one doesn't double it's remaining wounds for it's damage table, doesn't have a 6+ FnP either.

The strategum on a non ironhands one takes it from 7 wounds to 14 to be bracketed and dead at 28 wounds.
Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change. And double with the same strategum. It's2 less wounds than killing a normal one would be just to bracket an iron hands model.

It is the sort of insane stacking that will see GW nerf the model into unplayable overcosted trash for anyone by ironhands to make it balanced for them.

I'm not missing any of that.

I never said the IH buffed Levi wasn't better than any others; I said the strat costa CPs and will only effect the Levi for 1 phase/turn.

Tactical restraint means popping the strat on the Levi leaves the rest of the army available to die to your multidamage weapons.

I also talked about 6+ fnp... You quoted me doing so.

Yes double remaining wounds for chart is powerful, but that is not related to the strat, nor does it change death from a thousand cuts(hitting it with single-damage weapons, which are uneffected by the strat).

You keep conflating half-damage with doubling wounds. These are not the same thing. The IH levi under Duty Eternal can take more than twice as many Autocannon hits, true. But will still die at only 5/6 the rate of heavy bolter or assault cannon shots.

Hell, Hellblasters still eat these things for breakfast with either heavy plas incinerators or the normal plas incinerator. Anything that deals multiple mortal wounds will also take this thing down quickly.

Still not answered what single damage S8+ weapons are you packing on the regular?

Additionally I'm not claiming its outright OP it just insane stacking the benifits vrs any other chapter's. The survivability is different leagues.

It is outright OP because their damage is in the same spot and actually increased by dying less. Plus they also die less.

Regardless of what some of you people think. This game is about killing things. It's firepower vs defense and target allocation. Defense really does win in this game because a unit that doesn't die gets to react to agressive moves and often take a turn away from what it's reacting to.

Iron Hand seems really strong right now, but we don't know yet about the psychic discipline, the relics and the stratagems and I think those will do a lot to balance out those supplement codexes.
I've already written that somewhere but the absurd amount of stratagems and relics that codex compliant SM have access to is a huge problem for balance and has the potential to open up some nasty combos. I really think GW should tone it down and really think about giving all factions across the board the same number of stratagem/relics (and give some form of vect to everyone) because right now it's a mess.

and frankly as I have no intreast in running a parking lot list I'm not gonna be running iron hands

Makes me wish even harder for templates back.
The big kind

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

With rerolls its dead. 50% hit. 50% wound with reroll 1's you'll get 6 wounds. AP-3 in dev doct. So you take 10 wounds making one 6+ save. Then 7 heavy flamer shots 3 wounds at AP -2. Probably take 12 wounds or more. So more than half the time it kills a rhino in overwatch. Plus it would still need to survive a round of combat. And I think we've seen a stratagem it can fall back and shoot on for 2 CP.

Eh?

20 * .388 * .5 * .833 * 2 = 6.5
7 * .333 * .5 = 1.2

It's possible to kill the rhino, but average seems to leave it on 2 wounds. Not the safest thing ever obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I never go Heavy Flamers for the Levi. Heavy Bolters mesh better with the preferred range unless you're going melee.

I don't believe you have a choice or I am doing something wrong.

No HBs for Levi - maybe the chaos one?

I'm not sure what math you are doing there. You should be averaging 11 hits with 5.5 wounds before reroll 1's. So basically 6 wounds after reroll 1's. That is already enough to kill it with ap-3 before heavy flamers which will average 1-2 wounds.

Ahhh I think I know what you are doing wrong now. The rhino will have a 6+ save if the levi is in dev doctrine (it will never leave this doctrine all game lol)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OH I'm thinking Deredeo. My bad.

Yeah I would totally take the cheapest option available - it just has to take heavy flamers in 40k. It add 30 something points to the unit (which still keeps it at quite OP levels)

How are you getting more that 50% hits on 5s to hit with reroll 1s? What have I missed? 20 shots, right?

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

Easier play, drive a rhino into the techmarine three inches from it hauling the uber-relic, and powerslide on the pile-in.

^Gangster. Now we're thinking in portals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change.

Sorry, I haven't seen the stratagem, but presumably its half damage rounding up? In which case 1D weapons aren't affected.

How many 1 damage S8 + weapons are you using?

Also just to be clear this isn't a leviathan specific problem the same numbers are also true for the redemptor dreadnaughts
7 and 14 vrs 12 and 24 to bracket with 13/26 to kill vrs 15/30.

If they do have double repair and wound generating psychic powers the only option is killing it in 1 round. People thought knights with rotate ion shield was OP bad.

If the relic for -1 damage stacks after halfing or they have a strategum/relic to improve their FNP to a 5+++, you better believe we'll see a new Iron hands and MW spam meta.

S8? Not many. Lower Strength? Possibly tons upon tons. The Knights could still walk away from CC and shoot. The Dreds can't unless UM. I just feel like I see easy ways around this one.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

Easier play, drive a rhino into the techmarine three inches from it hauling the uber-relic, and powerslide on the pile-in.

^Gangster. Now we're thinking in portals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change.

Sorry, I haven't seen the stratagem, but presumably its half damage rounding up? In which case 1D weapons aren't affected.

How many 1 damage S8 + weapons are you using?

Also just to be clear this isn't a leviathan specific problem the same numbers are also true for the redemptor dreadnaughts
7 and 14 vrs 12 and 24 to bracket with 13/26 to kill vrs 15/30.

If they do have double repair and wound generating psychic powers the only option is killing it in 1 round. People thought knights with rotate ion shield was OP bad.

If the relic for -1 damage stacks after halfing or they have a strategum/relic to improve their FNP to a 5+++, you better believe we'll see a new Iron hands and MW spam meta.

S8? Not many. Lower Strength? Possibly tons upon tons. The Knights could still walk away from CC and shoot. The Dreds can't unless UM. I just feel like I see easy ways around this one.

this is the case with every new rule GW puts out, a handfull of people scream "OMG! IT'S A MASSIVE NEW META BREAKING RULE THAT WILL DESTROY THE GAME THROUGH BEING OP" then it reaches the table and after a week people find it's a over priced edge ase that honestly isn't that great

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

6+ fnp has been around since thr beginning of 8th(well, lots longer and with better rolls previously); it is pretty good, but not really fame breaking. As you showed: ups the survivability by 2 wounds in this case.

Half damage strat is only for the phase(or maybe turn) that the strat is popped; and only going to effect multi-damage wounds(effectively doubling the shots required for the same damage that phase). This costs CPs, and isn't as borken as you might think.

The real gem is the character sitting behind it with an iron stone, -1 damage all the time for no CP cost.but all this really does on some cases is remove desire to supercharge the guns that potentially explode and keep heavy bolters as kings of anti-tank scratch damage(or any multi-shot S5-6 AP -1 1D weapons)

What your missing is that a non iron hands one doesn't double it's remaining wounds for it's damage table, doesn't have a 6+ FnP either.

The strategum on a non ironhands one takes it from 7 wounds to 14 to be bracketed and dead at 28 wounds.
Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change. And double with the same strategum. It's2 less wounds than killing a normal one would be just to bracket an iron hands model.

It is the sort of insane stacking that will see GW nerf the model into unplayable overcosted trash for anyone by ironhands to make it balanced for them.

I'm not missing any of that.

I never said the IH buffed Levi wasn't better than any others; I said the strat costa CPs and will only effect the Levi for 1 phase/turn.

Tactical restraint means popping the strat on the Levi leaves the rest of the army available to die to your multidamage weapons.

I also talked about 6+ fnp... You quoted me doing so.

Yes double remaining wounds for chart is powerful, but that is not related to the strat, nor does it change death from a thousand cuts(hitting it with single-damage weapons, which are uneffected by the strat).

You keep conflating half-damage with doubling wounds. These are not the same thing. The IH levi under Duty Eternal can take more than twice as many Autocannon hits, true. But will still die at only 5/6 the rate of heavy bolter or assault cannon shots.

Hell, Hellblasters still eat these things for breakfast with either heavy plas incinerators or the normal plas incinerator. Anything that deals multiple mortal wounds will also take this thing down quickly.

Still not answered what single damage S8+ weapons are you packing on the regular?

Additionally I'm not claiming its outright OP it just insane stacking the benifits vrs any other chapter's. The survivability is different leagues.

You should really read what you quote: Heavy Plasma Incinerator on Hellblasters: 5-10 S 8 D1 weapons.
Macro Plasma Incinerator d6 S8 D1 weapon.

Are just 2 S8 D1 weapons that you either field a unit of, or are multishot from this codex.

But S8 isn't a requirement any S5-7 D1, multishot weapon will do as well (1/3 wounds instead of 1/2).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Can someone just check the following as it looks too disgusting to be true

Ironnhands leviathan
Counts as double wounds for damage table so requires 11 wounds lost to bracket it
It then gets the 6+++FnP for 13 wounds
Take not this is after saves

Play the half damage strategum and your talking 26 wounds that's dominus class knight damage just to bracket it.

The above also doesnt account for any additional strategums to allow them to ignore damage on damage tables or any repairing ability.

:shrug: Drive a Rhino into it.

Easier play, drive a rhino into the techmarine three inches from it hauling the uber-relic, and powerslide on the pile-in.

^Gangster. Now we're thinking in portals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Ironhands strategum use goes from 13 to 26 wounds after saves, basically an iron hand leviathn needs to take the same amount of damage as a non iron hands one does with the half damage strategum before applying a bracket change.

Sorry, I haven't seen the stratagem, but presumably its half damage rounding up? In which case 1D weapons aren't affected.

How many 1 damage S8 + weapons are you using?

Also just to be clear this isn't a leviathan specific problem the same numbers are also true for the redemptor dreadnaughts
7 and 14 vrs 12 and 24 to bracket with 13/26 to kill vrs 15/30.

If they do have double repair and wound generating psychic powers the only option is killing it in 1 round. People thought knights with rotate ion shield was OP bad.

If the relic for -1 damage stacks after halfing or they have a strategum/relic to improve their FNP to a 5+++, you better believe we'll see a new Iron hands and MW spam meta.

S8? Not many. Lower Strength? Possibly tons upon tons. The Knights could still walk away from CC and shoot. The Dreds can't unless UM. I just feel like I see easy ways around this one.

this is the case with every new rule GW puts out, a handfull of people scream "OMG! IT'S A MASSIVE NEW META BREAKING RULE THAT WILL DESTROY THE GAME THROUGH BEING OP" then it reaches the table and after a week people find it's a over priced edge ase that honestly isn't that great

I forgot the Leviathans much shorter range than the Castellan, too. Just touch it and shut down a 300 point unit. This is why I'm still all in on UM, they remove a whole toolkit the opponent could normally use.

As usual people are blowing things out of proportion.

Honestly i am much more scared by a RG list than an IH parking lot. The IH parking lot has 3 huge flaws:

1) Low mobility. It is formed by models with a move characteristic of 8", which must be kept within 3" of a model that moves 6".
2) Low range. Leviathan, repulsors, redemptors, razorbacks... they are all range 24" except for a few heavy bolters here and there. Which means no damage on the turn 1 that you all seem to give so much importance to, because the enemy will counter deploy if going second or counter move if going first and not give you any important target to shoot at with your 1000+ point death star. Play Azrael castles for a while and you will realize all the limitations of such a playstyle.
3) You cannot retreat and shoot and you don't have the ultra overwatch strat of ultramarines. Who cares if a Leviathan can shred my assault units in overwatch, i will assault the weaker element and consolidate into the full formation.

All these things put together means that such a list will get maybe 1 good shooting phase on average.

Now, an RG list which removes all my chars by turn 2, THAT is scary.

Spoletta wrote:
As usual people are blowing things out of proportion.

Honestly i am much more scared by a RG list than an IH parking lot. The IH parking lot has 3 huge flaws:

1) Low mobility. It is formed by models with a move characteristic of 8", which must be kept within 3" of a model that moves 6".
2) Low range. Leviathan, repulsors, redemptors, razorbacks... they are all range 24" except for a few heavy bolters here and there. Which means no damage on the turn 1 that you all seem to give so much importance to, because the enemy will counter deploy if going second or counter move if going first and not give you any important target to shoot at with your 1000+ point death star. Play Azrael castles for a while and you will realize all the limitations of such a playstyle.
3) You cannot retreat and shoot and you don't have the ultra overwatch strat of ultramarines. Who cares if a Leviathan can shred my assault units in overwatch, i will assault the weaker element and consolidate into the full formation.

All these things put together means that such a list will get maybe 1 good shooting phase on average.

Now, an RG list which removes all my chars by turn 2, THAT is scary.

I think a lot of people tend to put a lot of weight on big impressive units and forget that 90% of the time it's characters holding those lists together. a lot of the power combis collapse without captain re-rolls and psyker powers providing buffs etc

Spoletta wrote:
As usual people are blowing things out of proportion.

Honestly i am much more scared by a RG list than an IH parking lot. The IH parking lot has 3 huge flaws:

1) Low mobility. It is formed by models with a move characteristic of 8", which must be kept within 3" of a model that moves 6".
2) Low range. Leviathan, repulsors, redemptors, razorbacks... they are all range 24" except for a few heavy bolters here and there. Which means no damage on the turn 1 that you all seem to give so much importance to, because the enemy will counter deploy if going second or counter move if going first and not give you any important target to shoot at with your 1000+ point death star. Play Azrael castles for a while and you will realize all the limitations of such a playstyle.
3) You cannot retreat and shoot and you don't have the ultra overwatch strat of ultramarines. Who cares if a Leviathan can shred my assault units in overwatch, i will assault the weaker element and consolidate into the full formation.

All these things put together means that such a list will get maybe 1 good shooting phase on average.

Now, an RG list which removes all my chars by turn 2, THAT is scary.

1) Why do you think they have to be within 3 inches of a move 6 charictor? This is just their basic resilience with iron hands and the half damage strategum.
2) Leviathans are 24 inch range but redeptors repulsors etc have longer range weapons, they can also move a shoot without penalty so their effective range is over 30 inches so they can shoot turn 1
3) outside of Chapter master or LT reroll bubbles Iron hands that go hard into heavy weapons don't need to be so aura dependant that they need to be that close.

Ravenguard can't be in tactical doctrine untill turn 2 so they're not getting that +1,+1 vrs charictors untill turn 2.

The only thing keeping that parking lot together is the iron stone. Without that you will eat a lot of fire and will become nothing more than a mesh of decent vehicles with ad additional 1 ap on some weapons. You will not outgun tau and guard like that.

I think that here we have a big problem of game format.

ITC players will prefer iron hands because turn 1 matters a lot.

CA18 players will prefer the other doctrines because as long as you don't play against huge range castles, not much will get killed turn 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.

Marin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.

I think you've rather missed the point, if the whole codex is over or under performing then points changes can be used to balance them out.
If 1 subfaction traits make a unit worth 200 points while all the others only make the unit worth 150 points, that is a problem as all those subfactions pay the same points.

Also marine's had a long way to climb before the were on the same level of broken a alitoc flyer spam, GSC and choas soup, GW may have managed to get them past that point for 1 or 2 combinations

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.

I think you've rather missed the point, if the whole codex is over or under performing then points changes can be used to balance them out.
If 1 subfaction traits make a unit worth 200 points while all the others only make the unit worth 150 points, that is a problem as all those subfactions pay the same points.

Also marine's had a long way to climb before the were on the same level of broken a alitoc flyer spam, GSC and choas soup, GW may have managed to get them past that point for 1 or 2 combinations

Even in CSM the discrepancies are still there, it's nothing new and just proves that gw has no idea how to subfaction propperly.

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.

I think you've rather missed the point, if the whole codex is over or under performing then points changes can be used to balance them out.
If 1 subfaction traits make a unit worth 200 points while all the others only make the unit worth 150 points, that is a problem as all those subfactions pay the same points.

Also marine's had a long way to climb before the were on the same level of broken a alitoc flyer spam, GSC and choas soup, GW may have managed to get them past that point for 1 or 2 combinations

This would make sense if every unit had a "correct" point cost. Problem is that a unit can never been assigned a mathematically correct point cost, since the actual value of that unit depends on the rest of the list.
There are models which are worth more points, the more you take of them, while there are other which have diminishing returns the more you take. Many models are worth more in combination with other models, and so on.

If you make a model a bit stronger in one subfaction than in others, it still works design wise. It just means that that subfaction will be able to efficiently deploy it in more configurations, so it will be present in more lists, which was the intended aim of the bonus to that model in that subfaction. The other subfactions will still use it, but in less cases.

It works, nothing wrong in that design. Sure, this assumes that every unit is well designed and has a point cost similar to its average point value.