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 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

We haven't seen the full supplements yet so we can't make any such statements.

At a glance people thought Ultras were better than White Scars but this is not the case once you build a list playing to the strengths of WS.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

We haven't seen the full supplements yet so we can't make any such statements.

At a glance people thought Ultras were better than White Scars but this is not the case once you build a list playing to the strengths of WS.

QFT.

Main Codex just had units and some playability.

Supplements add a dimension of Narrative effectiveness to what we know of chapters.

UM: Jack-of-all trades, decent at everything and experts at nothing.

WS: Fast attack specialists. Their guys need/want to get in close as fast as possible.

IH: Heavy support specialists. Heavy weapons and lots of armor that is tough as adamantium. Yes, this means they are in their element from turn 1; but they also want to stay in devastator doctrine making most of the army a little less effective vs other marines in subsequent turns.

RG: stealth assassins. Snipers extraordinaire, scouts and phobos primaris are what this army is built around; add in some anti-armor for mop-up after you have deleted all the force multipliers. They are a little more of a long-game playing army.

So far, the supplements have oscillated between more and less primaris vs oldmarines. With both still being viable choices in army composition. The next 2 will be more of the same.

IF: Bolter Bunnies/siege specialists. I expect/suspect that thier super-doctrine will be Tactical-based and either super-power Bolter discipline, or grant Bolters/antitank weapons better AP and damage vs buildings/cover.

 Insectum7 wrote:


S8? Not many. Lower Strength? Possibly tons upon tons. The Knights could still walk away from CC and shoot. The Dreds can't unless UM. I just feel like I see easy ways around this one.

I think dreads confound it a little. They overwatch well (as IH) and punch well. People claiming all vehicle armies are going to smash it up will get caught up by melee units for sure.

Honestly I'd probably treat the dreadnought ball like a Castellan - kill the rest of the army and focus on objectives.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
.

WS: Fast attack specialists. Their guys need/want to get in close as fast as possible.

.

And their doctrin activates on turn 3

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.

I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.

I think you've rather missed the point, if the whole codex is over or under performing then points changes can be used to balance them out.
If 1 subfaction traits make a unit worth 200 points while all the others only make the unit worth 150 points, that is a problem as all those subfactions pay the same points.

Also marine's had a long way to climb before the were on the same level of broken a alitoc flyer spam, GSC and choas soup, GW may have managed to get them past that point for 1 or 2 combinations

There is nothing to climb because this is totally new codex with very little in common with the old one.
First GW did things they tried not to do all editions, give extra easy to get bonuses to hit, give full rerolls and give extra rerolls on wound !!! Now even Tao or Guard cant outshoot marines, the paper planes will be countered and you have snippets that can kill reliable characters. Forget Allaitoc flyers, IH flyers will probably be better.
GSC have little chances vs SM, Infiltrators, lots of tough bodies that are hard to remove even in close combat, serious firepower that destroy everything in range, strat that intercept units coming from reserve.,
SM are busted the only problem is they cant spam everything in their list because of the points.
If CA ignore them, Ynnari will look like paper tiger in comparison.

NErrrrrrrrrrf NERFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF NEEEEEEEEEEEEEERFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Marin wrote:
First GW did things they tried not to do all editions, give extra easy to get bonuses to hit, give full rerolls and give extra rerolls on wound !!!

Well that just isn't true. Bobby was giving full rerolls to hits and wounds in the index.

Now even Tao or Guard cant outshoot marines

Uuhhhh....no. Tau just won NOVA. IH doesn't dramatically increase the shooting of the army. The buffs that got handed out were to the middling Primaris Infantry.

Forget Allaitoc flyers, IH flyers will probably be better.

K, well, let's find out.

Lascannon:

1 * .333 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 0.65 // Alaitoc Hemlock
1 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 * .833 = 0.81 // IH Stormraven

Asscan

6 * .333 * .5 * .5 = 0.50 // Alaitoc Hemlock
6 * .5 * .333 * .5 * .833 = 0.42 // IH Stormraven

Disintegrator

3 * .333 * .333 * .833 * 2 = 0.55 // Alaitoc Hemlock
3 * .5 * .333 * .833 * 2 * .833 = 0.69 // IH Stormraven

Looks like that isn't true unless the gun is S6.

GSC have little chances vs SM, Infiltrators, lots of tough bodies that are hard to remove even in close combat, serious firepower that destroy everything in range, strat that intercept units coming from reserve.

You mean the exact same ability that GSC got before marines? Which means marines are forcibly spending 220 to 330 points on infiltrators. They're still Primaris, so, do what the other GSC guy did and take some dirt cheap mining lasers with no money penalty and work them off the board before deepstrikes need to pop up.

I'm genuinely unsure on how Lying in Wait interacts with scramblers though.

And the marine intercept is far more limiting than the Eldar one.

SM are busted the only problem is they cant spam everything in their list because of the points.

Sure...

The preview for the new IH special character is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/12/preview-iron-father-feirrosgw-homepage-post-2/

More useful than Guilliman. Wow, amazing stuff.

This guy's rules and auras are incredible.

5++ bubble and gives BS2+ to a unit within 3" for the shooting phase, Flat 3 repair
Once again:

Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

40k is just getting ridiculous, I have no more will to play until this new wave of codices is done, if non-SM codices are even remade. Getting tired of Bubblehammer and the exaggerated lethality new releases are getting lately. I'll continue watching the news with interest and play with a few people but it's too much for now. That's the final drop for me after my 60€/72 pts AdMech transports getting outclassed by the new Impulsor transport a few months later.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

yeah, because the 5++ is stuck on a profile that pays too much for it.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.

Right, so ~300 points of character spend to support a bubble that isn't going to be a single dreadnought, so, 700 to 800 points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
5++ bubble and gives BS2+ to a unit within 3" for the shooting phase, Flat 3 repair

The wording on the repair ability felt a bit wonky - is it worded as "up to 3, rather than up to D3" just to stop you repairing past maximum W on a vehicle?

Two Repulsors, now with a good Invul, reducing damage, not dropping a profile and being repaired for 9 wounds a turn potentially.

You don't think that's worth it? Just a basic example.

The rest of the infantry is no slouch either.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

yeah, because the 5++ is stuck on a profile that pays too much for it.

Redemptor is T7 W13 - 105 points
Forgefiend is T7 W12, 5++, heal 1 - 100 points

Redepmtor spends likely 200 for a 5++. FF spends 160 for BS3. Pretty even-stevens I'd say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Two Repulsors, now with a good Invul, reducing damage, not dropping a profile and being repaired for 9 wounds a turn potentially.

You don't think that's worth it? Just a basic example.

The rest of the infantry is no slouch either.

Totally worth it. It just isn't the game breaker people are making it out to be. (wonders why the cost of repulsors and executioners went up)

 Dysartes wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
5++ bubble and gives BS2+ to a unit within 3" for the shooting phase, Flat 3 repair

The wording on the repair ability felt a bit wonky - is it worded as "up to 3, rather than up to D3" just to stop you repairing past maximum W on a vehicle?

It says "up to 3" because if a model has only lost 2 wounds, you can't "regain 3" wounds. By saying "up to" it allows you to repair 1, 2 or 3 wounds as required. There might also be some niche reason why you only want to restore 1 wound to something.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.

I don't think you can have 2 of the same named characters.
Those are the abilities Iron Father Feirros has. We don't know what the bog standard Iron Father gets.

Daedalus, how long do you think your discolord survive.

So no, not even, not even close.
Also the Discordant is a pure melee thingy, also dakka daemonengine build does not work.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.

I don't think you can have 2 of the same named characters.
Those are the abilities Iron Father Feirros has. We don't know what the bog standard Iron Father gets.

Unnamed Forgefather would get the relic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.

I don't think you can have 2 of the same named characters.
Those are the abilities Iron Father Feirros has. We don't know what the bog standard Iron Father gets.

Unnamed Forgefather would get the relic.

Are IH getting unnamed Forgefathers? I haven't seen anything saying they are.

Just any techmarine or any generic character. Probably a Lieutenant is most useful.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Daedalus, how long do you think your discolord survive.

So no, not even, not even close.
Also the Discordant is a pure melee thingy, also dakka daemonengine build does not work.

We're trading even costs for buffs - I don't need disco to be visible even if that's not his primary. I couldn't tell you if dakkadaemons are viable, because I don't have enough to run that, but the HAC sure seem handy is primaris start breeding.

MF has their fists built in and VS their guns so it gets tricky.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

-1 damage is free - as a relic for any of the other 3 HQ's youll be taking.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Are IH getting unnamed Forgefathers? I haven't seen anything saying they are.

Sorry - meant techmarine. Librarian could be a wiser choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

-1 damage is free - as a relic for any of the other 3 HQ's youll be taking.

Note:

You can't have both unless you're spending hard.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

yeah, because the 5++ is stuck on a profile that pays too much for it.

Redemptor is T7 W13 - 105 points
Forgefiend is T7 W12, 5++, heal 1 - 100 points

Redepmtor spends likely 200 for a 5++. FF spends 160 for BS3. Pretty even-stevens I'd say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Two Repulsors, now with a good Invul, reducing damage, not dropping a profile and being repaired for 9 wounds a turn potentially.

You don't think that's worth it? Just a basic example.

The rest of the infantry is no slouch either.

Totally worth it. It just isn't the game breaker people are making it out to be. (wonders why the cost of repulsors and executioners went up)

You are just wrong dude. If this isn't game breaking the non iron hands repulsor needs to drop 50 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Are IH getting unnamed Forgefathers? I haven't seen anything saying they are.

Sorry - meant techmarine. Librarian could be a wiser choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, he better be 200+ points.

But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.

(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)

-1 damage is free - as a relic for any of the other 3 HQ's youll be taking.

Note:

You can't have both unless you're spending hard.

mandtory hq's aren't spending hard. It's unavoidable point expenature. It's not like another marine faction needing to spend 250 for a durado dread for a 5++ aura that can just be focused first and will die easily and you still had to buy 2 HQ's anyways and don't get a -1 damage aura ether. Just go ahead and give me my reroll wounds aura back please. It would still be inferior to this.

The thing that baffles me is that Iron Hands are getting significant buffs to both damage *and* durability. A really tanky theme would be great, or a killy one, but both seems like it'll be way too potent.

 Xenomancers wrote:
mandtory hq's aren't spending hard. It's unavoidable point expenature.

Spending hard on a death ball. Calgar is 200 so this guy will easily be that. Add a librarian, which will be about 100. Then add a minimum of 3 vehicles.

And throw caution to the wind for when this guy gets taken for a ride on his points if he ends up too strong.

Even if Iron Hands (floating) gun castle isn't gonna be the list that's gonna take home the biggest tournaments in the finals, everyone better be ready to play that list at least 2-3 games in a 5-round tournament, lol.