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2019/09/14 20:17:09
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
2019/09/14 21:52:40
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
2019/09/14 21:59:32
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
2019/09/14 22:03:49
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
I'm sorry, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole a 5++ is actually MORE valuable on more expensive models aka Marines.
He's embarrassingly better and I hope GW sort their balance issues out in CA.
2019/09/14 22:07:10
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
You must be new english.
Hell we'd get to experience heat death of the universe before that
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/09/14 22:21:49
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
I'm sorry, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole a 5++ is actually MORE valuable on more expensive models aka Marines.
He's embarrassingly better and I hope GW sort their balance issues out in CA.
I definitely think he's better, but there are two things to consider:
One, a Mega Armor big mek is a suboptimal big mek. Part of the utility of the build is that you only have to pay for what you're going to use, and most of the time you don't need the extra armor on your Big Mek. A Big Mek with a KFF and without mega armor is only 75pts and provides almost exactly the same utility to your army.
Two, 5++ is only more valuable on more expensive models if it's going to provide value to those models. A 5++ will provide a better save to almost the entire ork codex outside out of the box, even if those orks are in cover, and against AP-2 weapons for everything except mega armor and dreads. A 5++ for marines, on the other hand, will provide very little utility except against high-AP weapons, especially when in cover. When you bring a KFF, you expect to roll that save every time you use the KFF.
You need Lascannon AP in order to make the 5++ relevant against the average marine, Meltagun AP to make the 5++ relevant against marines in cover, and Volcano Cannon AP to make the 5++ matter against armored marines (like Leviathans or Centurions) in cover. I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines. It happens often enough to be useful, sure, but not so often that it's going to be totally devastating.
The reason I think Feirros is powerful is because of his Signum, with his buffed repair roll, above-average shooting, and the 5++ being small additional benefits on top which combined make him so powerful. It's the 2+ BS irrespective of damage charts, which stacks with Iron Hands always getting re-rolls on 1s for our best weapons, which by my estimation is worth half his points all by itself. Unless there are penalties on the roll, any unit he chooses to buff will practically be autohitting, which is very good.
2019/09/15 06:57:08
Subject: Re:Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
ironfather0 wrote: As someone who has played iron hands for a long time, I don't mind an ironfather that has a different view point on the whole bionic things, they actually go into it a bit in the Raukaan codex supplement. Personally i think it makes them a little less one dimensional. Even Ferrus wasn't a huge fan of over use of bionics.
Any particular section from the Raukaan Supplement that stands out?
I'm not bothered by the fact that he had a different outlook on it than the rest of the IH, I'm bothered by the fact the GW won't/can't release a character that goes full "the flesh is weak." If they did, people would see that it didn't sell well and that would be a tacit admission that the Iron Hand's chief philosophy is boring and stupid. Basically what Brian says:
BrianDavion wrote: the last time they got a supplement they focused on an iron father who didn't really belive eaither. (same one maybe?) it is a bit of an odd choice, that comes off like "yeah this is such a flying rodent gak stupid thing we can't even write a char who belives it"
I wish they would start selling the Iron Hands as a "despise the weak" chapter, more social darwinists than cyborgists. A minority want go full bionic, but most are just trying to better themselves, no matter the cost. "The flesh is weak" can still be a battle cry and they can still cut off a hand in mimicry of Ferrus, but making them robomarines in any key aspect is a waste of a first founding chapter.
2019/09/15 07:08:07
Subject: Re:Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
I can’t remember the section off the top of my head. I think a full flesh is weak character would sell good too. I like both flavors and I would like to assemble an iron Hands army that follows the teachings of Stronos and Feirros, and I would also like to make one who follows more like Kristos. Some of the chapter is going the route you mentioned you wanted them to go, that’s kind of what Stronos and Feirros teach
2019/09/15 07:19:50
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/09/15 07:40:05
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
I'm not sure about a release but the last time I recall something declared OP it was the Kelermorph. You know - the character that features in 100% of competitive GSC lists, often in multiples and is universally regarded as too points efficient. That guy.
The Iron Father is objectively better by a large margin than the equivalent unit from other factions, this isn't an opinion, it is a fact. He's cheaper, has better damage output, better buffs/heals and is more resilient. There is no way in which he is worse.
The Iron Father will feature in 100% of competitive IH lists and if GW are in any way interested in balance (instead of just shifting new Marine models) they will being the equivalent from other factions in line with this character or bring this character down to the standard level. It is a joke that this got through testing when units like the Megamek and Tech Priest exist.
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Waaaghpower wrote: I definitely think he's better, but there are two things to consider:
Spoiler:
One, a Mega Armor big mek is a suboptimal big mek. Part of the utility of the build is that you only have to pay for what you're going to use, and most of the time you don't need the extra armor on your Big Mek. A Big Mek with a KFF and without mega armor is only 75pts and provides almost exactly the same utility to your army.
Two, 5++ is only more valuable on more expensive models if it's going to provide value to those models. A 5++ will provide a better save to almost the entire ork codex outside out of the box, even if those orks are in cover, and against AP-2 weapons for everything except mega armor and dreads. A 5++ for marines, on the other hand, will provide very little utility except against high-AP weapons, especially when in cover. When you bring a KFF, you expect to roll that save every time you use the KFF.
You need Lascannon AP in order to make the 5++ relevant against the average marine, Meltagun AP to make the 5++ relevant against marines in cover, and Volcano Cannon AP to make the 5++ matter against armored marines (like Leviathans or Centurions) in cover. I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines. It happens often enough to be useful, sure, but not so often that it's going to be totally devastating.
The reason I think Feirros is powerful is because of his Signum, with his buffed repair roll, above-average shooting, and the 5++ being small additional benefits on top which combined make him so powerful. It's the 2+ BS irrespective of damage charts, which stacks with Iron Hands always getting re-rolls on 1s for our best weapons, which by my estimation is worth half his points all by itself. Unless there are penalties on the roll, any unit he chooses to buff will practically be autohitting, which is very good.
You think he's better then immediately make excuses as to why that's OK. It's not OK. It is utterly imbalanced.
And your points of contention are completely bogus - KFF Meks can no longer be taken in tournament play due to the legends bull gak and a 5++ is literally more valuable on a more expensive model (marine models are almost exclusively more expensive than Ork models). Not to mention you don't stand your 5++ bubble repairbot next to standard marines, you stand him next to vehicles, that tend to get shot with lascannon and melta AP and so absolutely benefit from the invuln save.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/15 07:54:48
2019/09/15 08:04:20
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not sure about a release but the last time I recall something declared OP it was the Kelermorph.
Didnt you call the whole of GSC broken, Kelermorph too, as well as the buggys, and that is a prety good example of why you should probably should ease up? the Kelermorph isn't even close to breaking the game like some said
"""You know - the character that features in 100% of competitive GSC lists, often in multiples and is universally regarded as too points efficient. That guy."""
two lists with GSC placed at GT's over the weekend, the one that got highest did not have a Kelermorph He's not even in 100% of competitive lists this week, let alone since release
2019/09/15 08:17:04
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not sure about a release but the last time I recall something declared OP it was the Kelermorph.
Didnt you call the whole of GSC broken, Kelermorph too, as well as the buggys, and that is a prety good example of why you should probably should ease up? the Kelermorph isn't even close to breaking the game like some said
Nope. I said GSC were clearly a top tier army (would you look at that) and certain options they have, just like this one, are simply better at their job than the equivalent from other factions. Until the assassin buff the Keller was the best assassin in the game bar none. The Keller is also due a nerf. It features in a very high proportion of lists and is clearly too points efficient.
two lists with GSC placed at GT's over the weekend, the one that got highest did not have a Kelermorph He's not even in 100% of competitive lists this week, let alone since release
95% then. Do you know how often it features in lists that podium? Have you gone through the stats? I have, its a very, very high proportion.
2019/09/15 08:24:37
Subject: Re:Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
wait wait wait, a Megamek with KFF is a INDEX Option? not sure why you're even making the comparison, we know the priority GW has in keeping index options compeitive is somewhere between low and non-existant, hence the move to legends status for most of it
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 10:02:39
2019/09/15 09:56:57
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
wait wait wait, a Megamek with KFF is a INDEX Option? not sure why you're even making the comparison, we know the priority GW has in keeping index options compeitive is somewhere between low and non-existant, hence the move to legends status for most of it
Megamek is not index.
Meagarmored bigmek with kff is available normally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 10:03:00
2019/09/15 10:29:07
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
BrianDavion wrote: wait wait wait, a Megamek with KFF is a INDEX Option? not sure why you're even making the comparison, we know the priority GW has in keeping index options compeitive is somewhere between low and non-existant, hence the move to legends status for most of it
No. We are talking about the Index standard Mek with KFF, the MegaMek with KFF is a codex entry and it is that which compares so poorly to the Iron Father.
2019/09/15 12:21:22
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
If you're arguing that we shouldn't compare certain models because they will be updated at some point in the future to no longer be useable in the same way, I don't really know what to say.
KFF Meks without Mega Armor are still legal until Legends is officially released. By the time that happens, any number of other changes could also have possibly occured.
As for the Iron Father, I'm arguing (as I said a couple times) that he's very good, but not overwhelming shoot-the-moon uncomparably good. He gives durability buffs to an army already flush with durability buffs, which can make IH very difficult to face with traditional point-and-shoot tactics, but does little to cover our weaknesses to being tied up in CQC or alpha strikes. Good? Absolutely. An auto-take? Probably, since Captains are less important and having a Techmarine on hand was already important. But (in my opinion) he's not a gamechanger like early-edition Guilliman.
2019/09/15 12:26:45
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons. Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/15 12:28:02
2019/09/15 12:35:47
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
I'll ask the question - have we seen the pages from the IH and/or RG books with the PL and points costs on them?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/09/15 12:36:52
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
Lol, no. Undercosted? Sure. I could see him getting a 30 point bump pretty easily, but 70 is way too much. At 180pts, there would be very little reason to take him over just bringing an extra tank instead.
2019/09/15 12:46:13
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
I'll ask the question - have we seen the pages from the IH and/or RG books with the PL and points costs on them?
Yes. The Iron Father is around 110pts(I think we saw the power level for him first?) and Shrike is 130pts.
Personally, I feel like Shrike's at the 'right spot' for an assault centric character who's meant to for whatever silly reason be in a Primaris list that has no real assault elements outside of Reivers.
2019/09/15 13:13:16
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
Lol, no. Undercosted? Sure. I could see him getting a 30 point bump pretty easily, but 70 is way too much. At 180pts, there would be very little reason to take him over just bringing an extra tank instead.
The question is if he's clearly better than most current charictors to the point of needing around a 30% increase in points but was considered to be inline with the powerlevel GW was going for post playtesting WTAF is coming that makes him worth some 30% less than comparable charictors? Ok Raven Guard appears to be able to just auto delete every charictor unit from your army turn 2 onwards but surely they can't be that silly that they are recosting every new charictor for dying to ravenguard but leaving the exsisting charictors as they are?
2019/09/15 13:32:53
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
The more I look at it, the more I feel like this supplement has two key aspects of that make it "Powerful":
1, a host of abilities that make it very easy to use effectively against typical armies. Durability is a no-brainer, mobility on heavy weapons makes positioning easier, and gunlines are already more straightforward to run than, say, an alpha strike army. The skill floor for playing an Iron Hands list that's competitive is fairly low compared to other armies. I don't think this makes IH stronger than other armies, but it will make them more common because it's easy to play them well.
The other one is the one I have a lot more problems with, which is a few specific combos and abilities that either appear to be undercosted or just plain broken and will hopefully get an FAQ. Feirros appears to be a good 20-30 points cheaper than he should be, (though I want to play with him a few times before I say that for sure,) Duty Eternal stacking with the Ironstone stacking with three heals per turn can make a dreadnought nigh-invulnerable, Leviathans being able to grab Warlord Traits (and maybe even Relics) leads to some terribly cheesy abilities (like being able to Yoink them out of combat with no penalties), just to name a few. Stuff like this takes our most powerful units from 'Durable but fair' to 'You basically can't kill them', which is unreasonably good.
2019/09/15 14:59:24
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Waaaghpower wrote: The more I look at it, the more I feel like this supplement has two key aspects of that make it "Powerful":
1, a host of abilities that make it very easy to use effectively against typical armies. Durability is a no-brainer, mobility on heavy weapons makes positioning easier, and gunlines are already more straightforward to run than, say, an alpha strike army. The skill floor for playing an Iron Hands list that's competitive is fairly low compared to other armies. I don't think this makes IH stronger than other armies, but it will make them more common because it's easy to play them well.
The other one is the one I have a lot more problems with, which is a few specific combos and abilities that either appear to be undercosted or just plain broken and will hopefully get an FAQ. Feirros appears to be a good 20-30 points cheaper than he should be, (though I want to play with him a few times before I say that for sure,) Duty Eternal stacking with the Ironstone stacking with three heals per turn can make a dreadnought nigh-invulnerable, Leviathans being able to grab Warlord Traits (and maybe even Relics) leads to some terribly cheesy abilities (like being able to Yoink them out of combat with no penalties), just to name a few. Stuff like this takes our most powerful units from 'Durable but fair' to 'You basically can't kill them', which is unreasonably good.
See my worry is they will become so prevalent as they have such readily accessable playstyle and that when the stacking up comes out GW won't be able to see that it's only irons hands, will recost the vehicals and make non Iron hands players over pay for a number of units.
2019/09/15 15:21:40
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Waaaghpower wrote: The more I look at it, the more I feel like this supplement has two key aspects of that make it "Powerful":
1, a host of abilities that make it very easy to use effectively against typical armies. Durability is a no-brainer, mobility on heavy weapons makes positioning easier, and gunlines are already more straightforward to run than, say, an alpha strike army. The skill floor for playing an Iron Hands list that's competitive is fairly low compared to other armies. I don't think this makes IH stronger than other armies, but it will make them more common because it's easy to play them well.
The other one is the one I have a lot more problems with, which is a few specific combos and abilities that either appear to be undercosted or just plain broken and will hopefully get an FAQ. Feirros appears to be a good 20-30 points cheaper than he should be, (though I want to play with him a few times before I say that for sure,) Duty Eternal stacking with the Ironstone stacking with three heals per turn can make a dreadnought nigh-invulnerable, Leviathans being able to grab Warlord Traits (and maybe even Relics) leads to some terribly cheesy abilities (like being able to Yoink them out of combat with no penalties), just to name a few. Stuff like this takes our most powerful units from 'Durable but fair' to 'You basically can't kill them', which is unreasonably good.
See my worry is they will become so prevalent as they have such readily accessable playstyle and that when the stacking up comes out GW won't be able to see that it's only irons hands, will recost the vehicals and make non Iron hands players over pay for a number of units.
I definitely agree. I'm hoping that we get a day 0 errata to fix the most egregious problems, because while I love my Iron Hands, I don't want the whole codex to get the nerf hammer in a few months on account of us.
2019/09/15 15:34:41
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Is that good for GW though? In mobile games for example it is the norm to put out a new hero or gear, that people grind for or gamble with loot boxs, only after 3-6 months to "fix" them, so people spend money grinding or gambling.
A 6 months seson pass, would generate good money for GW. Whales would be milked 2-3 times a year. There would be a big turn over of new players, which wouldn't create a bigger secondary market, at the same time the non players that are not whaling, would still be enticed or forced to buy stuff, if they can legaly play their stuff.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/09/15 15:39:16
Subject: Some rules sneak peaks from the Iron Hands supplament.
Karol wrote: Is that good for GW though? In mobile games for example it is the norm to put out a new hero or gear, that people grind for or gamble with loot boxs, only after 3-6 months to "fix" them, so people spend money grinding or gambling.
A 6 months seson pass, would generate good money for GW. Whales would be milked 2-3 times a year. There would be a big turn over of new players, which wouldn't create a bigger secondary market, at the same time the non players that are not whaling, would still be enticed or forced to buy stuff, if they can legaly play their stuff.
That depends on the pushback. If enough people are decrying it and calling for fixes right away, in public settings, GW won't be able to benefit from the short-term bump in sales.
