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happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

The fix to the Caladius grav tank seemed about right to me. Certainly not in line with the famous "nuke from orbit" fix to Malefic Lords.

Considering gw even nerfed r&h cultists to 5ppm even though they are and were worse than their csm counterpart, i would like to state that a broken clock is also twice a day correct.

Or basically for once the poor competent one of the bunch of gakflinging apes that make up the gw ruleteam had a lightbulb go off.

Yes i am salty.

In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.

That's fair i guess.

Ice_can wrote:
Just to get this back on track as your all missing the mark so badly it's kinda funny.

How to make Iron hands deathstar ish work

Battalion
Ironfather
Liberian
Primarid Lieutenant

2 5 man intercessors with stalkers
1 5 man infultrater squad

1 repulsor twin lass otherwise heavy on the dakka
1 repulsor executioner like wise anti tank and dakka

Flyer detachment
Stormtallon
Stormtallon
Stormhawk
Stormhawk
Storm Tallon or Hawk needs playtesting to find out which is best

That's one way to make it work. Still got 8CP the boss father and 2 relics on 2 charictors. All vehicals have fly and you have 12 inches of not today GSG.

Ok, and what are the buffs that ALL of those units get?

Everything bar the infultratersand librarian has a heavy weapon so no penalty for moving and shooting, reroll 1's to hit, the flyers have +1 to hit ground targets or flyers respectively so hitting on 2 rerolling 1's
The repulsor will be hitting on 2's rerolling 1 because of forgeboss
Will have a 5++ aswell. The lt or librarin can get the -1 damage relic
He can heal each repulsor for 3 wounds each turn for CP and the librarian can heal if needed.
You can select a second relic or WT of your choice

And all the vehicals have fly so fall back and shoot, but best off all GSC and Orks can't charge your flyers.

^Is -1 damage relic for one vehicle?

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Is -1 damage relic for one vehicle?

It's an aurs relic so the 2 repulsors can sit in it, and if you want to go ham theoretically 3 of the 5 flyers with the charictors in the center. Use the other 2 and the troops for screening turn 1.

IceCan: 2 points:

1) With all 5-man units(or less), and same cost, 2 Executioners would be better than 1 and a DT repulsor with Twin Las. The Heavy Las Destructor has more range, higher S, 2 shots base, and can shoot twice if moving less than 5". Cost is 1 point cheaper than a Twin-las Dakka'd out Repulsor, and you have the HS slot to spare.

2) All vehicles having Fly is a mixed bag. Anti-air(generally Icarus) weapons will have an easier time hitting, and some strats(Like Flakk Missile) can now target any of the vehicles. but on the upside, you can fall back and still shoot.

Insectum7: from a glance: 5++ and can BS2+ the Executioner. Likely having one second Relic as Ironstone for -1D per hit, and the second as either mind forge or one of the armors to nothing buffing other models. then reroll 1s to wound.

Spells are likely to be the Repairing vehicle spell, and Blessing.

Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.

The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.

Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.

And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.

Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
IceCan: 2 points:

1) With all 5-man units(or less), and same cost, 2 Executioners would be better than 1 and a DT repulsor with Twin Las. The Heavy Las Destructor has more range, higher S, 2 shots base, and can shoot twice if moving less than 5". Cost is 1 point cheaper than a Twin-las Dakka'd out Repulsor, and you have the HS slot to spare.

2) All vehicles having Fly is a mixed bag. Anti-air(generally Icarus) weapons will have an easier time hitting, and some strats(Like Flakk Missile) can now target any of the vehicles. but on the upside, you can fall back and still shoot.

Insectum7: from a glance: 5++ and can BS2+ the Executioner. Likely having one second Relic as Ironstone for -1D per hit, and the second as either mind forge or one of the armors to nothing buffing other models. then reroll 1s to wound.

Spells are likely to be the Repairing vehicle spell, and Blessing.

1 that is true it's a bit 6 of 1 half a dozen of another, I'd probably start play testing with 1 and 1 and then see who performed better, I suspect your fight with double executioner being thw way to go and go tripple tallons.
Thats the thing with count as double wounds and 6+ fnp I think fly to avoid being shut down by a charger is more important than an odd +1 to hit bonus here and their.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Why do I need to take objectives untill your dead, I have the firepower and they still count for linebreaker etc

2 a knight or mortarian aint charging anything important easily and certainly not something without fly bar the inceptors who well they die in 1 turn probably anyway so congratulations your DP is not front and center of the firebase who are about to go ham
It's an all fly army it will fallback and shoot your mortarian to dust should you even make it.

Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.

The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.

Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.

And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.

Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?

Again, it's not better than equivalent options. The Ironstone generally works better than a 5+ invuln unless you're using an AP-3 weapon with only 1 damage.
Also: Autocannon equivalents, Missile Launcher equivalents, and a plethora of other AP-1 and -2 weapons exist. And cover, too, if you play on boards that have decent terrain, which means guns will need AP-4 to hit that invuln.

And I'd say that saving the 7pt model is better 90% of the time, because 90% of the time, that 12pt model would have had a 5+ or better save to begin with. (And if your opponent is firing anti-tank weapons into tactical marines, they've either already won or are blundering terribly.)

 Ordana wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.

I honestly hope these tournament Formats die out.
(the rules not the events)

They set a bad balance precedent that has nothing to do with the majority of games played.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.

I honestly hope these tournament Formats die out.
(the rules not the events)

They set a bad balance precedent that has nothing to do with the majority of games played.

Bad balance, I've seen people claiming BRB missions and tactical objective decks are more balanced than ITC and while ITC has it's issues, it atleast puts the control of the objectives in the hands of the player not can you avoid pulling unachievable tactical objectives. Have fun scoring deny a psychic power and kill the psycher vrs Tau or Knights.

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.

I honestly hope these tournament Formats die out.
(the rules not the events)

They set a bad balance precedent that has nothing to do with the majority of games played.

Bad balance, I've seen people claiming BRB missions and tactical objective decks are more balanced than ITC and while ITC has it's issues, it atleast puts the control of the objectives in the hands of the player not can you avoid pulling unachievable tactical objectives. Have fun scoring deny a psychic power and kill the psycher vrs Tau or Knights.

You see there's also something as too much controll over them like ITC and the "meta" it facilitates.
Altough if GW for once would do something well, well you wouldn't need tournament Formats now would you

Waaaghpower wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.

The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.

Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.

And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.

Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?

Again, it's not better than equivalent options. The Ironstone generally works better than a 5+ invuln unless you're using an AP-3 weapon with only 1 damage.
Also: Autocannon equivalents, Missile Launcher equivalents, and a plethora of other AP-1 and -2 weapons exist. And cover, too, if you play on boards that have decent terrain, which means guns will need AP-4 to hit that invuln.

And I'd say that saving the 7pt model is better 90% of the time, because 90% of the time, that 12pt model would have had a 5+ or better save to begin with. (And if your opponent is firing anti-tank weapons into tactical marines, they've either already won or are blundering terribly.)

Again, it clearly is better than equivalent options from other factions. Obviously so.

Doesn't the Ironstone ALSO belong to the IH subfaction?

You seem to be repeatedly ignoring that this invulnerable save will be a massive benefit to vehicles (y'know, the units it's intended for) that neither benefit from cover and have AP-3 and above weapons firing at them.

And if this 5+ field was given to a faction that wouldn't have those other durability buffs, it probably wouldn't be a huge deal. But the amount of things IH can stack to make their vehicles hard to kill is staggering. This will be a problem, I am sure of it.

We are probably just over reacting because the flesh is weak and we all got these fleshy bodies.

I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.

10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).

Ah yes, I remember that tactic of mass lascannons from way back when the monolith was godly. Such an annoying vehicle to kill back in 4th.

the problem is, do we want to have to basicly base our entire list around killing one thing?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.

And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.

Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?

Ah DakkaDakka forums. Always classy.

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is, do we want to have to basicly base our entire list around killing one thing?

No, it's just a thought experiment.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.

10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).

I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.

 Crimson wrote:
And if this 5+ field was given to a faction that wouldn't have those other durability buffs, it probably wouldn't be a huge deal. But the amount of things IH can stack to make their vehicles hard to kill is staggering. This will be a problem, I am sure of it.

No question about it. 1 marine faction has literally twice the durability against the weapons you need to kill their units as other factions. Practically invulnerable to flat 2 damage weapons (which are everywhere). They already have the best tactic for durability. Stacking all the together makes a pretty unbeatable force. Not to mention the other free traits from tactics...hitting on 5's in overwatch….

What is the point of nerfing gman to create an even more OP aura powerball? Does GW really think were gonna buy a whole new marine army just to paint it black?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Good lord...Every ironhands army is going to have 30 primaris as troops. Who can move and shoot a stalker with reroll 1's at AP-3 flat 2 damage. That is not easy to dislodge off objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.

The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.

Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.

And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.

Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?

Again, it's not better than equivalent options. The Ironstone generally works better than a 5+ invuln unless you're using an AP-3 weapon with only 1 damage.
Also: Autocannon equivalents, Missile Launcher equivalents, and a plethora of other AP-1 and -2 weapons exist. And cover, too, if you play on boards that have decent terrain, which means guns will need AP-4 to hit that invuln.

And I'd say that saving the 7pt model is better 90% of the time, because 90% of the time, that 12pt model would have had a 5+ or better save to begin with. (And if your opponent is firing anti-tank weapons into tactical marines, they've either already won or are blundering terribly.)

Lets get real. The KFF is OP. It literally doubles the save of most ork units and it's cheap as balls. The issue with the ironhands 5++ aura is it being ironhands exclusive - all marines need that because none of their tanks have no invo saves minus a few dreads and they are expensive tanks. What if tiggis -1 to hit was a 6" aura....you think that would be fair - especially being ultramarines only? There is also literally no reason why it shouldn't be if that 5++ is an aura. Ironstone is the real problem - 1 damage aura is flat out OP and should not exist. Plus it is practically free being a relic at least gman had to pay 400 points to give his aura out (which was actually overcosted anyways).

30 intercessors is a fair bit of points, I suspect a number of these lists will toss in only 15. the bare minimum. if you're putting 30 on the table you're investing just over 500 points into your list on infantry. thats a fair bit of points to invest in troops. and to be blunt, the problem with stalker bolt rfiles is the extra power isn't useful if you're not fighting a list with a lotta 2 wound infantry

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.

10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).

I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.

It's crazy easy to get 10 Razors into the auras. Two rows of 5 will do it, no problem. Turn 1 cover doesn't help you, as Devastator Doctrine is in effect and all the heavies get an additional -1 AP already. Not to mention 10 Razors is only a bit over half the points of the army. There's room for more guns in the list. Also, it's hard AF to effectively hide flyers. If Repulsors aren't yet visible, just start knocking out the planes.

It's not about perfect accuracy in terms of what will happen, nor is it even about the specific list, it's just a starting place to build a counter around. Like the Castellan, I think the path to victory will be a combination of threats to Castellan and/or playing around it. It's "Have I dealt with super-tough units before?" and the answer is "Yes." The new Codex also give me more options than I had previously, as well.

BrianDavion wrote:
30 intercessors is a fair bit of points, I suspect a number of these lists will toss in only 15. the bare minimum. if you're putting 30 on the table you're investing a LOT into infantry.

They are great though. For 85 points you get a unit that can threaten anything not t8 on the table with 36" range and the ability to move and shoot. You are taking 2 battalions anyways because you pretty much need to run 4 HQ's for this comp. The cost is about the same a tactical with a heavy weapon and is way more durable. I could see maybe some infiltrators if you could squeeze them in. Scouts are straight garbage. You don't really need to worry about deep strike charges when you have 30 intercessors to screen anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.

10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).

I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.

It's crazy easy to get 10 Razors into the auras. Two rows of 5 will do it, no problem. Turn 1 cover doesn't help you, as Devastator Doctrine is in effect and all the heavies get an additional -1 AP already. Not to mention 10 Razors is only a bit over half the points of the army. There's room for more guns in the list. Also, it's hard AF to effectively hide flyers. If Repulsors aren't yet visible, just start knocking out the planes.

It's not about perfect accuracy in terms of what will happen, nor is it even about the specific list, it's just a starting place to build a counter around. Like the Castellan, I think the path to victory will be a combination of threats to Castellan and/or playing around it. It's "Have I dealt with super-tough units before?" and the answer is "Yes." The new Codex also give me more options than I had previously, as well.

Ironhands do this even better because all the razors are -1 damage with a 5++ (maybe only 8 will fit). Yes - the executioner is overcosted but when you can make it really hard to kill and repair it 6 a turn it will probably still be more preferable.

Max razors loses to basically every competitive army though because you touch them and they are useless.

sure intercessords with stalker bolt rifles are good, but they're not without their issues. run a stalker focused list and chances are you lack the tools to deal with infantry horde lists.

BrianDavion wrote:
sure intercessords with stalker bolt rifles are good, but they're not without their issues. run a stalker focused list and chances are you lack the tools to deal with infantry horde lists.

Good thing they have 3 attacks in CC then. Also 2x executioners and a levi will obliterate hordes. Or maybe just running a bunch of redemptors and TLAC Razors will prove to be better. IDK. Its not like they are bad against all infantry ether. Just the dirt cheap ones where they at least deny a save and reduce the effectiveness of FNP on 1 wound models. Ironhands will basically never leave devastator doctrine so there is no reason to run anything else. Ironhands Landspeeders might also prove to be quite a good choice too.

They are pretty efficient vs fire warriors/admech infantry. There is nothing except chaff and t8 that they aren't at least decent against and they are more than decent on range and durability.

sure they're not a bad choice at all, I just don't think stalker bolt rifle intercessors are going to be quite as "I win" as you might hope. IMHO you're better off running a mix of rofle rifle, and stalker rifle intercessors no matter your army.