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I have seen recent conflicting opinions on the order of operations for Obliterators and their Fleshmetal Guns. Particularly, there have been reasonable arguments for different interpretations on when to select a target during the Shooting Phase.

The most recent wording as of this post is:

‘Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3, one after the other, to determine the characteristics of the unit’s fleshmetal guns when resolving those attacks.’

My original interpretation is that this change was primarily made in order prevent players from cherry-picking a potential re-roll, as any re-roll must be declared prior to rolling the next modifier in the sequence. The trouble comes from particularly bad wording in the first clause "Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns..." Skipping over the fact that GW loves to use passive voice in the rules, the clause itself does not fit well into the usual Shooting Phase action order (Choose unit > Choose target > Choose weapon). A unit is not "chosen to attack with" but, rather, the player first selects the unit.

I have still been playing this as: Choose unit > Roll profile > Choose target > Choose weapon. Obviously this is preferable for the Chaos player, but the poor wording of the rule has left me with a bit of doubt after seeing arguments that the rolls should come during the "Choose weapon" part of the action. I'm still on team Roll-before-selecting-target (considering how expensive Obliterators are) but until I get a FAQ for the errata I'm not convinced that this is an infallible ruling.

Thoughts?

Forlorn_ Hope wrote:
I have seen recent conflicting opinions on the order of operations for Obliterators and their Fleshmetal Guns. Particularly, there have been reasonable arguments for different interpretations on when to select a target during the Shooting Phase.

The most recent wording as of this post is:

‘Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3, one after the other, to determine the characteristics of the unit’s fleshmetal guns when resolving those attacks.’

My original interpretation is that this change was primarily made in order prevent players from cherry-picking a potential re-roll, as any re-roll must be declared prior to rolling the next modifier in the sequence. The trouble comes from particularly bad wording in the first clause "Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns..." Skipping over the fact that GW loves to use passive voice in the rules, the clause itself does not fit well into the usual Shooting Phase action order (Choose unit > Choose target > Choose weapon). A unit is not "chosen to attack with" but, rather, the player first selects the unit.

I have still been playing this as: Choose unit > Roll profile > Choose target > Choose weapon. Obviously this is preferable for the Chaos player, but the poor wording of the rule has left me with a bit of doubt after seeing arguments that the rolls should come during the "Choose weapon" part of the action. I'm still on team Roll-before-selecting-target (considering how expensive Obliterators are) but until I get a FAQ for the errata I'm not convinced that this is an infallible ruling.

Thoughts?

"Chosen to attack" is the "Choose Unit to Shoot with" step. At least if you rely on natural English parsing. You're right that technically the rule doesn't ever trigger. It can't be before choosing which weapon to resolve attacks for because weapons are not units.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're right that technically the rule doesn't ever trigger. It can't be before choosing which weapon to resolve attacks for because weapons are not units.

I guess that means my Obliterators only get Str 6 guns now. Definitely worth the points!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Chosen to attack" is the "Choose Unit to Shoot with" step. At least if you rely on natural English parsing. You're right that technically the rule doesn't ever trigger. It can't be before choosing which weapon to resolve attacks for because weapons are not units.

As you point out it can't be before choosing the weapon, since it's "Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns". and you don't know that it's using the fleshmetal guns until the choose weapon step. I would say you roll the dice when the weapon's chosen since it's only at that time you've fulfilled all the criteria of the prerequisites for rolling the dice to determine what stats the Fleshmetal guns are operating under.

Jeez, guys, everyone knows what that bit of phrasing means. Let’s not circle around and around an obvious thing.

To the OP’s Q, community consensus seems to be “roll before selecting target”.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Jeez, guys, everyone knows what that bit of phrasing means. Let’s not circle around and around an obvious thing.

To the OP’s Q, community consensus seems to be “roll before selecting target”.

Which is weird to me, because I'd always assumed it meant "roll after selecting target," so you couldn't cherry-pick the best victims once you know your stats. Maybe I've just been doing it wrong the whole time.

 Octopoid wrote:
I'd always assumed it meant "roll after selecting target," so you couldn't cherry-pick the best victims once you know your stats. Maybe I've just been doing it wrong the whole time.

This is what bugs me about it. There are definitely two interpretations floating around. One of them makes Obliterators virtually useless, and the other makes them somewhat playable if overpriced.

 Octopoid wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Jeez, guys, everyone knows what that bit of phrasing means. Let’s not circle around and around an obvious thing.

To the OP’s Q, community consensus seems to be “roll before selecting target”.

Which is weird to me, because I'd always assumed it meant "roll after selecting target," so you couldn't cherry-pick the best victims once you know your stats. Maybe I've just been doing it wrong the whole time.

Mostlikely, because rolling after the target is selected would be devastatingly bad and not at all tournament worthy, which Oblits are one of the few remaining units csm has of that standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Forlorn_ Hope wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
I'd always assumed it meant "roll after selecting target," so you couldn't cherry-pick the best victims once you know your stats. Maybe I've just been doing it wrong the whole time.

This is what bugs me about it. There are definitely two interpretations floating around. One of them makes Obliterators virtually useless, and the other makes them somewhat playable if overpriced.

Just quality gw rulewriting.
Considering their recent wd article on balance and rules in regards to AoS i am not surprised.

So the pre errata wording

Fleshmetal Guns: When this unit is chosen to shoot
in the Shooting phase or fires Overwatch, roll three D3….

The Shooting phase stages are

1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
2. Choose Targets
3. Choose Ranged Weapons
4. ….

So pre-errata the rule is triggered when the unit is chosen to shoot, so the weapon profile would be determined before target selection.

Post Errata wording

Page 147 – Obliterators, Fleshmetal Guns Change the first sentence to read:
‘Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3, one after the other, to determine the characteristics of the unit’s fleshmetal guns when resolving those attacks.’

This appears to be triggered when you choose to attack with the fleshmetal guns. Granted obliterators only have a single ranged weapon, but weapons (even if the only choice) are choosen in stage 3, thus this would seem to place the trigger after target selection.

Cornishman wrote:

Page 147 – Obliterators, Fleshmetal Guns Change the first sentence to read:
‘Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3, one after the other, to determine the characteristics of the unit’s fleshmetal guns when resolving those attacks.’

This appears to be triggered when you choose to attack with the fleshmetal guns. Granted obliterators only have a single ranged weapon, but weapons (even if the only choice) are choosen in stage 3, thus this would seem to place the trigger after target selection.

A unit is chosen in step 1 of the shooting phase.

 p5freak wrote:

Cornishman wrote:

Page 147 – Obliterators, Fleshmetal Guns Change the first sentence to read:
‘Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns, roll three D3, one after the other, to determine the characteristics of the unit’s fleshmetal guns when resolving those attacks.’

This appears to be triggered when you choose to attack with the fleshmetal guns. Granted obliterators only have a single ranged weapon, but weapons (even if the only choice) are choosen in stage 3, thus this would seem to place the trigger after target selection.

A unit is chosen in step 1 of the shooting phase.

Yes, I believe I clearly showed this.

However the trigger isn't 'choosing the unit to attack'; It's chosing 'the unit to attack with fleshmetal guns'. The requirement is choosing the unit to attack with the weapon fleshmetal guns, and weapon selection is step 3.

If it worded '... unit with fleshmetal guns is chosen to attack , roll three D3....' Then this would be step 1 (as in the pre-errata wording)

Just use them as Ultramarines Aggressors. Winking Ork emoji.

The FAQ seems pretty clear that it has to be after you choose targets.

Pre FAQ: "When this unit is chosen to shoot in the Shooting phase or fires Overwatch"

Post FAQ: "Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns"

This moves the fleshmetal roll from before you choose targets to after choosing targets. People that roll before picking targets probably haven't read the FAQ.

"Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns"

The unit is chosen in step 1, and the weapons are chosen in step 3. Its not pretty clear. RAW, it doesnt work. GW has changed a working rule to a not working rule

 p5freak wrote:

"Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns"

The unit is chosen in step 1, and the weapons are chosen in step 3. Its not pretty clear. RAW, it doesnt work. GW has changed a working rule to a not working rule

I think the only reasonable parsing of that phrase is as "Each time this unit's Fleshmetal Guns are chosen to attack with".

Which is a valid if somewhat clunky reading.

The problem with this again is the same as assault weapons can't fire.

1) You choose a unit to shoot with first
2) You choose a target to shoot at
3) You choose weapons to fire.

This rule clearly breaks the flow of the game.

It sounds like GW really don't understand how they wrote the main function of the phases.

Every time they mention [the weapon] they have failed at the core rules of the game.

Either RAW
A) FM Guns never do anything.
B) FM Guns only get to alter their stats in step 3, meaning you have undetermined attack potential.

HIWPI
Is you get to roll at step 1, after you declared you are shooting the unit.

Why would they change the previous wording if they wanted to let you continue rolling before choosing targets?

 vict0988 wrote:
Why would they change the previous wording if they wanted to let you continue rolling before choosing targets?

Who knows, GW have never been very consistent in this regard.

Other units with weapons with variable str, shots and ap decide targets then roll dice.

I believe Oblits are exactly the same.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Other units with weapons with variable str, shots and ap decide targets then roll dice.

I believe Oblits are exactly the same.

That’s not how most people play this unit.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Other units with weapons with variable str, shots and ap decide targets then roll dice.

I believe Oblits are exactly the same.

That’s not how most people play this unit.

I don't see why not.

If the player has chosen to fire their Fleshmetal Guns or whatever they should have already selected an enemy unit to fire against.

I'm not sure why people think this unit is any different than all of the others such as the SAG Mek?

I mean, that’s all been covered in this thread already so no point going around the “it’s unclear” again... just telling how it is usually interpreted.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I mean, that’s all been covered in this thread already so no point going around the “it’s unclear” again... just telling how it is usually interpreted.

Of course, a lot of the "interpretation" could just be based on people playing it had it had been worded pre-FAQ.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Other units with weapons with variable str, shots and ap decide targets then roll dice.

I believe Oblits are exactly the same.

That’s not how most people play this unit.

I don't see why not.

If the player has chosen to fire their Fleshmetal Guns or whatever they should have already selected an enemy unit to fire against.

I'm not sure why people think this unit is any different than all of the others such as the SAG Mek?

Because Oblits are in unit abilities and SAG is in the gun abilities.

Also they are worded rather differently.

You roll for the SAG just before you start shooting with the SAG (by RAW)

You roll for fleshmetal guns in step 1 of the shooting phase(again, by RAW).

The functional difference is that the Oblits will almost always be firing at targets best suited to the gun stats for that phase. The SAG may be targeting a vehicle and rolling a S2(not that you would ever not be firing it at a vehicle/heavy infantry)

vict0988 wrote:Why would they change the previous wording if they wanted to let you continue rolling before choosing targets?

vict0988 wrote:Pre FAQ: "When this unit is chosen to shoot in the Shooting phase or fires Overwatch"

Post FAQ: "Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns"

Probably because the prior rules gave no direction on how to handle the Fleshmetal Guns if the unit was to shoot outside of the Shooting phase or Overwatch. The new rule does.

"Each time this unit is chosen to attack with fleshmetal guns"

Why they cant just write "When it is this units turn to make a shooting attack, first roll 3 D3 etc", making it much simpler as its their only ranged weapon, I dont know.

I think people that are reading into the post FAQ are just reading into it too much. There doesnt have to be a reason why wording is changed. Both can be read to be the same thing.

Each time a unit is chosen to attack (and they must fire all weapons other than one shot weapons) is at step 1. Ergo you must roll at the start.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Other units with weapons with variable str, shots and ap decide targets then roll dice.

I believe Oblits are exactly the same.

That’s not how most people play this unit.

I don't see why not.

If the player has chosen to fire their Fleshmetal Guns or whatever they should have already selected an enemy unit to fire against.

I'm not sure why people think this unit is any different than all of the others such as the SAG Mek?

Because Oblits are in unit abilities and SAG is in the gun abilities.

Also they are worded rather differently.

You roll for the SAG just before you start shooting with the SAG (by RAW)

You roll for fleshmetal guns in step 1 of the shooting phase(again, by RAW).

The functional difference is that the Oblits will almost always be firing at targets best suited to the gun stats for that phase. The SAG may be targeting a vehicle and rolling a S2(not that you would ever not be firing it at a vehicle/heavy infantry)

They're the same thing. Unit abilities and gun abilities? What?

When you've chosen to fire with a weapon you have selected a target. That's when you roll for str, AP etc

RAW you roll in step 3 of the shooting phase for both the SAG Mek and the Oblits. The rules are clear on this, for me.

It seems like you roll when you choose to attack with guns. That is step 3, so is after targetting.

Seems pretty clear.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Other units with weapons with variable str, shots and ap decide targets then roll dice.

I believe Oblits are exactly the same.

That’s not how most people play this unit.

I don't see why not.

If the player has chosen to fire their Fleshmetal Guns or whatever they should have already selected an enemy unit to fire against.

I'm not sure why people think this unit is any different than all of the others such as the SAG Mek?

Because Oblits are in unit abilities and SAG is in the gun abilities.

Also they are worded rather differently.

You roll for the SAG just before you start shooting with the SAG (by RAW)

You roll for fleshmetal guns in step 1 of the shooting phase(again, by RAW).

The functional difference is that the Oblits will almost always be firing at targets best suited to the gun stats for that phase. The SAG may be targeting a vehicle and rolling a S2(not that you would ever not be firing it at a vehicle/heavy infantry)

They're the same thing. Unit abilities and gun abilities? What?

When you've chosen to fire with a weapon you have selected a target. That's when you roll for str, AP etc

RAW you roll in step 3 of the shooting phase for both the SAG Mek and the Oblits. The rules are clear on this, for me.

Yes weapon abilities. It is a line in weapon profiles under the column "abilities". They generally have no effect unless the weapon is making attacks(although sometimes the take effect under other conditions).

And Unit abilities are on the unit datasheet, under the heading "Abilities"

Not a hard concept to grasp. I will even give you an example: The Instigator Bolt Carbine has an ability that lets you target characters. The Eliminators have a unit ability called Covering fire, it allows the unit to move after the first time the sgt fires his Instigator bolt carbine in overwatch each turn.

Now, I had not seen the Errata to Fleshmetal guns, so my earlier response is invalidated by that. But based off of just the RAW in the books the 2 rules were different in thier activation and would/should have been played differently

The answer is obvious if you look at GW’s history of rule’s writing. Just go with the option that makes chaos space marines worse. That’s in line with pretty much every other rule update.