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Burna Boyz - not great at cc, not great at shooting. In both instances, they are outdone by regular boyz but cost more than double and are just as fragile. Really doesn't play a role in the current Ork army, especially since they rely on transports which are already a sub-par choice in an ork army.

Mega Nobz - Damage output compared to regular nobz is significantly less given their cost, while their survivability is. No longer cheap enough to be a MANZ missile like the olden days due to trukks costing a premium, and tellyporting means they're more or less stuck where they land. More or less glorified objective holders and doesn't feel like the chosen elite of an Ork warband.

Killa Kanz - Once the staple of Dred Mobz everywhere, they are now the biggest liability in a dred mob list since they suffer from morale and don't benefit from kulturs. They don't have enough shooting output to be a good investment for their price, nor are they good in CC. Very sad since I love their models.

Nob Bikerz - Very similar to Mega Nobz, they used to be one of the key elite units in the Ork codex, and now they're more or less a joke. They hit as hard as a normal nob but cost way more. They're outdone in shooting by normal warbikerz and despite being fast, don't really do much in CC when they get there. Kind of the reverse of Mega Nobz in terms of issues, in that they're fast but they cost too much for doing too little, while the Mega Nobz cost too much for how slow they are and how little damage they do.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
They've opted to keep reducing their points, rather than fix their rules.

GW's entire 8th edition design philosophy in a nutshell.

the marines codex suggests otherwise

Celestine used to be a cuisinarte of death literally everything on the table had to be terrified of.

Now she's a subpar buffbot with half the stats of a shield captain for the same price.

 Grimskul wrote:
Burna Boyz - not great at cc, not great at shooting. In both instances, they are outdone by regular boyz but cost more than double and are just as fragile. Really doesn't play a role in the current Ork army, especially since they rely on transports which are already a sub-par choice in an ork army.

Let me add to this almost every Ork blast weapon. Templates and blasts used to be the best way to compensate for our poor BS, but now random shots just contribute to poor ork BS and templates are hard to get in range with and harder to capitalize on. (Whereas they used to be hard to position but provide massive damage if you could get them working right.)

The Chimera is one that I'll echo, it has the classic problem of not being enough of a gunship to be work taking (hell, more lightly armed Rhinos give 'em a run for their money, especially if mobile) and the fact that the Chimera itself costs significantly more than anything you'd want to actually transport. Also, the necessity of transport just isn't there, the army really actively goes out of its way to make guard infantry want to foot slog and disincentivize mechanization.

I've got 19 painted Chimeras...it makes me cry.

With regards to other IG units, the Vanquisher is definitely a unit that has lost its role. It's a specialized anti-tank variant that is appalingly awful in an anti-tank role, with the purpose built dedicated purely anti-infantry version being almost identical in performance in that role.

The Deathstrike is another, it's supposed to be a big doomsday weapon, but it's unreliable, inconsistent, single use, unnecessarily delayed, and comically pillow fisted as a tabletop unit, it really should be more of a terrain piece or battlefield objective or support unit though

I'd nominate the Hydra as well, it's medicore at whacking planes and flyers in most cases, it's pretty bad at most anything else, and for some reason they insist on it being T6 (and my closed turret pre-'13 FW Hydras rather annoyed).

A lot of the IG elites, the Navy officer, Wyrdvane Psykers, Techpriests, etc bring little to the table worth bothering with.

GW has never liked Ogryns much for some reason

Kroot. A melee unit that lost its melee capability. Not to mention all the special rules they've lost over time.

Warlocks, too. Their shtick used to be that they had one power they could cast, but it was always "on" or didn't involve taking a psychic test. Then GW had the dumb idea to make them take tests in 7th, (8th is similar, yes?) effectively nullifying their entire purpose as a battlemage.

For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.

They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.

I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.

They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.

I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.

Yeah. Landspeeders and their ilk would benefit immensely from AA.

I echo -Guardsman-, greatbigtree, generalchaos34, and Vaktathi in that what started as a colourful list with loads of options has degenerated to a handful of efficient units...and a whole lot of unused ones. So I play armies with all sorts of strange Guard units and serve as a punching bag when facing most armies.

Now I would never want to go back to 3 point Conscripts, able to accept any order, with the old Commissar rules and Priests...because that unit seemed to be it's own must have. But because of that unit the Commissar went from a fairly benign colourful character model (in the opponent's view) who could save one unit a turn by executing a model for some fun for both sides to a figure that is never fielded any longer.

My two cents,

CB

To be fair, that's kinda just 8th now, Brown. You got a few "great" units, maybe a half-dozen or so "good" units, and then the rest of the Codex might as well not exist for all the good they'll do ya.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.

They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.

I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.

Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.

They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.

I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.

Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.

So people have to pay extra for them to stop sucking?

 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, that's kinda just 8th now, Brown. You got a few "great" units, maybe a half-dozen or so "good" units, and then the rest of the Codex might as well not exist for all the good they'll do ya.

I started in 3rd edition and since then it's always been this way. They fix one problem, then replace it with another. They make one unit good, but unexpectedly gimp another. Ad nauseam. GW just doesn't focus on writing balanced, high-quality rules, and they even admit as much in interviews. 40k's 40th edition will be no different unless the priorities change within the company.

In general its safe to say that with the dramatic reduction of game rule complexity caused a lot of units to lose the mechanics and function that gave them some meaningful purpose (regardless of if they where viable or not).

Let's see, I'll just drop some here.

Conscripts, they once had a purpose but weren't actually good for awhile, now they are just trash.

Commissars, were great, became ok, became great and now are meh. Thanks GW.

Ogryns, always bad, had chances to be good but never made so, maybe never will be and made pointless with Bullgryn.

Ratlings, I guess they were ok awhile back, now ? They are pretty bad.

Taurox, kinda pointless.

Chimera too expensive.

Rough riders, taken right out of the codex but could actually be worth it with a little touch up.

Sentinels, cheap yet not mobile for what should be a mobile fun platform to support infantry advancing ( armored ) or scout up and get sides and rear shots at enemy vehicles, now they just sit and shoot, mostly but that doesn't do much.

Veterans, over expensive and pointless and elites and not troops, sad.

Deathstrikes, never good may never be good.

Some of the hellhound variants pointless, over expensive.

Sanctioned psykers has been crap since they became a unit.

Lets see, some russ variants are just meh, Exterminator, Vanquisher, Eradicator, all of them are meh, the Vanquisher I wish they would just dream up a way for it to be better. Maybe, I dunno, more ap, more shots, it needs a higher strength for sure.

I'm sure I'm missing some guard stuff, but that is a pretty good list right there.

How could they fix them right there ? Actually put a bit of effort into it really. I'm not about to hold my breath.

Necron Warriors were scary around 3rd or 4th I think, then they weren't in 5th, then they became insane in 6th, then got under control but still strong in 7th. They got removed and replaced with Wawwiows that are a complete joke in 8th, needing hundreds of shots instead of a few dozen to pop a Land Raider, much stronger against MEQ and Fire Warriors but worse against GEQ. In 6th/7th they could perform any role except for monster hunting quite well, that made them scary.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.

Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.

They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.

It's like zombies, they are slow and dangerous to get near, but if you can kill them at range they are not that scary unless there is an absolute horde of them. If you don't have the tools for killing Terminators and they are kitted to take care of your army, they are scary. But because of their high pts cost there are very few matchups where they win. I still think they are a little scary, like zombies, just not very much. You can either make the Terminators more numerable like facing a zombie horde, or you can give them some sort of improved ability like letting zombies run. In 7th they were an absolute joke since it ended in dead or misplaced units so often.

 Stormonu wrote:
Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.

Assault Marines were useless in 6th and 7th and I don't think they got Hammer of Wrath until one of those two editions. They were grudgingly used in Gladius Detachments to get hundreds of free pts, but they were awful on their own. I don't know how terrible WS Assault Marines are, it'd be nice to see them get some table time for reasons other than free Razorbacks.

Regardings guard: besides all the comments so far (which I aggree with) it seems to me that a number of vehicle choices that had their niche between Leman Russ Tanks and Baneblades have become quite bad due to the LR becoming better and the Baneblade becoming a bit cheaper.

Malcador Battletanks/Annhilators have less firepower than their Leman Russ counterparts for increased cost and cannot even fire their turret weapons without penalty
Malcador Infernus costs more than 3 Hellhounds (Artemia or normal pattern) and can not take trake guards
Macharius Tanks and Valdor Tank Hunter: not much cheaper than a fitting Baneblade variant, while those are tougher, much better in CC and are better armed. Or on the other side of the spectrum: as expensive as two fully armed Leman Russ Tank commanders which have more wounds and firepower and a more useful HQ instead of LoW Slot
Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter and Thunderer Siege Tank: outperformed drastically by similar costed Leman Russ variants


All of them have interesting models (in my opinion at least) but from a competetive point of view only would have a place if they would either be significantly cheaper than their bigger competetor or tougher/shootier than their weight in Leman Russes. Or in a completely different direction: instead of always pushing for more fire power the Malcador, Macharius and Tank Hunters could become harder to kill than their counterparts giving them a second lease on live

Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Falcons and Vypers to name a few are all suffering the issue of not being good enough to fill their intended role in the Eldar codex.

Some aspects are too niche, while the role of MBT is taken up by the Wave Serpent over the Falcon. War Walkers also do what the Vyper does for 4" less movement and come with a 5+ invul.

Chaos Lords. They were an auto-include when they turned Cult units into troops and Daemon Princes cost 350+ points. Now they aren't even blessed by Nurgle anymore in the DG Codex. They're okay with jump pack or bike, but Daemon Princes are still better.

Maybe Rhinos. They're okay for their durability, but transports aren't really necessary anymore, you're usually fast enough on foot. I see me using these pretty rarely even though they feel like tanks now unlike in 6/7 th edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The real best example is Ogryns. They weren't even that good at their designated role, and Bullgryns pushed them out even further.

Ogryns, as I mentioned elsewhere, have been pretty awful since 3rd edition. In editions even older than that, they may have had some uses. 2E ogryns could shoot their ripper guns to 6" (IIRC) with automatic hits, or engage in stupid but fun tactics like a unit disembarking from a speeding Chimera after it had taken its max speed 24" move (you took 1 unavoidable wound from doing so, but Ogryns had 3 each) and getting in your face with el viejo uno-dos of shotguns and ultraviolence.

Ratlings, likewise, have pretty much always been awful, due to sniper rifles never being that impressive. Some editions gave the unit some survivability tricks such as boosts to cover saves or their "Shoot Sharp and Scarper!" special withdrawal move, but the problem with damage output remained. The game designers always just lacked the courage to do something meaningful with Ratlings or to remove the unit entirely.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Regardings guard: besides all the comments so far (which I aggree with) it seems to me that a number of vehicle choices that had their niche between Leman Russ Tanks and Baneblades have become quite bad due to the LR becoming better and the Baneblade becoming a bit cheaper.

Oh, that just reminded me of another one. Stormlord vs. Gorgon. The latter always had worse weapons, smaller transport capacity and less advantageous special rules, yet cost about the same.

I feel like a lot of Aeldari units have fallen to the wayside over the editions. GW seems to always manage to overboost a single unit or two in an Aeldari codex while keeping a lot of the other stuff slightly average to below average.

Pretty much all vehicles really. They're meant to be somewhat mobile heavy firepower compared to people holding cannons but for some reason absolutely nobody worked out a stable firing platform...

Also Banshees, Scorpions, Windriders and Seer Councils.

Blastaar wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.

They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.

I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.

Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.

So people have to pay extra for them to stop sucking?

Actually most Speeders are still bad outside Ultramarines and Iron Hands.

Assault Squads still have no purpose though and no supplement is going to help them, simply because Vanguard exist.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Falcons and Vypers to name a few are all suffering the issue of not being good enough to fill their intended role in the Eldar codex.

Some aspects are too niche, while the role of MBT is taken up by the Wave Serpent over the Falcon. War Walkers also do what the Vyper does for 4" less movement and come with a 5+ invul.

To lose something one has to have something.

Banshees - supposedly elite killers, but never could kill them due to low S. At one point canceled FNP though.

Scorpions - you'd think are horde killers, yet Exarch carries a massive powerclaw. And they do mortal wounds. Huh.

Spiders - before, could kill anything, because S6 could kill almost anything. Now can't kill anything.

Falcons - was an elite transport with Holofields, almost unkillable. Now what is it?

Vypers - went from hitting on 4+, to... moving and hitting on 4+. Full circle!

 Vankraken wrote:
In general its safe to say that with the dramatic reduction of game rule complexity caused a lot of units to lose the mechanics and function that gave them some meaningful purpose (regardless of if they where viable or not).

What's your comparison point? 8th, when you factor everything in (traits, stratagems, etc) is ridiculously complex, but with very little payoff for that complexity, as most it is annoying math quirks (rerolls, +/- bonuses) that do nothing but slow down the game with dice rolls (of which there are far too many to start with, before adding rerolls), and smooth out the math to predictable curve that you could largely replace with a look-up table.

Primarily I play marines and my 6 predators just don't seem to be tha useful at the moment. Anything they can do something else seems to do it better and/or cheaper...

For a fast tank they don't seem to be that fast, nor that accurate. Granted 5e BA was a notable period where Predators were fast, and accurate, and blow up as soon as anything got a shot on the side armour but those days are long gone.

Vindicators are just almost as fast and tougher. Okay that Demolisher Cannon is much shorter range than any armourment on the Predator, but for 2 quad Las Predators you can almost get 3 Vindicators...

Thanks to the Doctorine boost form UM and IH Landspeeders may have a welcome boost, but can easily get a bit pricy for such a flimsy platform and what about other chapters...

Rhino's... Oh to the days when you could shoot a couple of guys out the top. Made the good olde workhorse a bit more interesting.

What's nice is the price drop and bolter discipline has made the Codex:SM Tactial marine useful.

What's nice is the price drop and bolter discipline has made the Codex:SM Tactial marine useful.

Nice for you.

 Stormonu wrote:
Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.

Lack of attacks has been mitigated by the new rules: they now get 3 attacks on the charge/charge recieved.

Hammer of wrath as a strat in also just cheap enough, along with jump packs being just cheap enough to be a viable choice. You aren't going to be charging every turn with them to begin with, and they still make great counter-assault/defensive units(when an enemy melee unit is threatening your unit defending an objective, you jump the assault marines over the defenders, charge, and hammer). You only really need to dedicate 2 CP for hammer of wrath; I'd rather not pay the points for it when it os so situational.

Falcon: It hasn't had enough firepower to be a credible 'tank' since 4th at least, and the move to twin linked = double shots means it's just a worse Wave Serpent at this point.