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Thoughts? https://imgur.com/a/ir4Bxb0

I think the 1st Captain might be the O-3 for the battle brethren. I'd expect the Captains of the Battle Companies to outrank the Captains of the Reserve Companies too.

Nurglitch wrote:
I think the 1st Captain might be the O-3 for the battle brethren. I'd expect the Captains of the Battle Companies to outrank the Captains of the Reserve Companies too.

I'll have to dig for it again, but IIRC, due to their various specializations as Master of the Watch/Fleet/whatever, the Captains all hold equal rank so that they can't be overridden in their field by anyone but the Chapter Master.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
I think the 1st Captain might be the O-3 for the battle brethren. I'd expect the Captains of the Battle Companies to outrank the Captains of the Reserve Companies too.

I'll have to dig for it again, but IIRC, due to their various specializations as Master of the Watch/Fleet/whatever, the Captains all hold equal rank so that they can't be overridden in their field by anyone but the Chapter Master.

I believe the breakdown is as such...

Non-Company Officers
Overall - Chapter Master
Chaplaincy - Master of Sanctity
Armoury - Master of the Forge
Apothecarion - Master of the Apothecarion
Librarium - Chief Librarian

Captains
1st - Regent
2nd - Master of the Watch
3rd - Master of the Arsenal
4th - Master of the Fleet
5th - Master of the Marches
6th - Master of the Rites
7th - Chief Victualler (Master of Provisions)
8th - Lord Executioner
9th - Master of Relics
10th - Master of the Recruits
Other - Master of Signals
Other - Master of Reconnaissance



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Also important to note that the actual titles change from Chapter to Chapter. The Ultramarines have a "Master of Sanctity". The White Scars instead have a "Voice of the Storm". Both Codex Chapters, same position and responsibilities.

These are not ranks though, they're titles/positions. A Captain who holds one position may hold authority over a Captain of another position, but nominally he does not outrank him, much like a Warrant Officer who holds the position of Sergeant Major. The Sergeant Major would not outrank another Warrant Officer, though his more senior position would give him greater authority.


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Also for 0-3 I'd like to see GW introduce a rank between Captain and Chapter Master. I'd like to see two of them, mirroring the lieutenants, that can lead multi company battalions.

 Slagurth wrote:
These are not ranks though, they're titles/positions. A Captain who holds one position may hold authority over a Captain of another position, but nominally he does not outrank him, much like a Warrant Officer who holds the position of Sergeant Major. The Sergeant Major would not outrank another Warrant Officer, though his more senior position would give him greater authority.

I don't believe that concept exists between the Captains. They are all equal in terms of authority. Keep in mind that experience tends to be respected and that a 9th Company Captain who has served for 300 years will probably command more respect and deference than a newly promoted First Captain.

Yes, but nominally they are the same rank.

I really can't see Apothecaries or Techmarines being of equal rank to Lieutenants or Masters of those specialities outranking Captains. Also, where are the Veterans and Veteran Sergeants? Also, there exists a rank (or at least a positions) of Reclusiarch between the Master of Sanctity and a regular Chaplain.

But this is interesting stuff, I've been thinking of these things for my own custom chapter.

I recall Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Helreach talking about how Grimaldus had achieved sufficient rank, Reclusiarch, in the Reclusiam to be part of the Chapter's high command and placed in command of his own Crusade Helsreach.

Is "Force Commander" a rank? Or is it just a way to call the guy in command of a specific operation?

Tiennos wrote:
Is "Force Commander" a rank? Or is it just a way to call the guy in command of a specific operation?

Force Commander is the catch-all term for which Marine is in command of a given theater. In 3rd, the actual unit entry was named Force Commander and gave you four levels: Vet Sgt, Lt, Captain, and Chapter Master.

Are you sure Lieutenants were mentioned in 3rd? I'm looking through my 3rd edition codex right now and I'm not seeing it.


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 Crimson wrote:
I really can't see Apothecaries or Techmarines being of equal rank to Lieutenants or Masters of those specialities outranking Captains. Also, where are the Veterans and Veteran Sergeants? Also, there exists a rank (or at least a positions) of Reclusiarch between the Master of Sanctity and a regular Chaplain.

But this is interesting stuff, I've been thinking of these things for my own custom chapter.

Veteran is a status, not a rank. It's a status that, once earned, remains regardless of current rank or position.

I wasn't really sure where to place the specialist officers of the HQ departments in relation to main line officers. Apothecaries and Chaplains are attached to companies, placing them under the command of the Captain so I figured O-1 would be appropriate, though I could be wrong about the relationship between the Captain and the specialist officers attached to his company. The heads of specialist departments, Cassius and Tigurius of the Ultramarines in particular, seem to enjoy a very high level status in the chapter, second only to the Chapter Master, so O-3 seemed like the right fit.

Lieutenants weren't mentioned in 3rd. edition. And I really don't think Commander of Force Commander were ever meant to be any sort of ranks, merely descriptive terms for different levels of marine heroes.




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 Slagurth wrote:

Veteran is a status, not a rank. It's a status that, once earned, remains regardless of current rank or position.

I guess you could see it that way. But does it still affect the chain of command? If all higher ranking marines are killed, and there is a Sergeant and Veteran Sergeant left, is the Veteran Sergeant automatically in charge? Same with regular Battle-Brothers and a Veteran?

I wasn't really sure where to place the specialist officers of the HQ departments in relation to main line officers. Apothecaries and Chaplains are attached to companies, placing them under the command of the Captain so I figured O-1 would be appropriate, though I could be wrong about the relationship between the Captain and the specialist officers attached to his company. The heads of specialist departments, Cassius and Tigurius of the Ultramarines in particular, seem to enjoy a very high level status in the chapter, second only to the Chapter Master, so O-3 seemed like the right fit.

If both the Master of the Forge and Captain would be present, it would seem weird to me that the MoTF would be in charge.


Also, note that whilst the marines use our current military ranks, the officer/enlisted divide really doesn't apply to them. It is all part of one unified ladder.

I would say veteran status definitely affects seniority, but when looking at an org chart that lays out rank structure it doesn't really belong there. Also of note is that veteran status really only affects seniority among the enlisted ranks. Officers are required to be veterans before they can advance to those ranks, which is why "veteran Captain" is not a thing. All officers are veterans so it becomes redundant to denote that with a title or uniform markings (explaining why Ultramarines officers don't wear white helmets).

I like to think of specialist officers as being somewhat outside of the regular chain of command. They have responsibilities within their department that do not include commanding an infantry company in the field. In a pinch I'm sure the MoTF could take command of an army, but that's not his job. I think an argument could be made to place department heads at the same level as Captains and drop the number of officer ranks to 3 instead of 4, but I prefer the idea of introducing a main line O-3 officer rank who's job is to command battalion sized forces of 2-5 Space Marine companies.

Yeah the Space Marines technically don't have commissioned officers, they are all required to climb through the enlisted ranks before taking on any authority, which is a great idea when you're technically immortal lol. A Space Marine has effectively an unlimited amount of time in his career to gain experience and advance through the ranks, something us mere mortals don't have the benefit of. So you end up with officers that have a huge amount of hands on experience and understanding of what those under him are doing as soon as he takes command.

Maybe Lieutenant-Commanders? Fabius Bile held that rank in the Emperor's Children where they had Commanders in charge of Chapters, and Lord Commanders above them and below the Legion Commander or Primarch.

Lieutenant Commanders are part of the fluff, though how many chapters have them is unclear. Look up Anton Narvaez of the Marines Errant.

Regarding which captain is senior over which, and whether apothecaries/techmarines are equal to or subordinate to lieutenants, etc, I'd expect it would vary chapter by chapter and situation by situation.

Whilst your sructure might very well be a good representation of the "rules" of the codex, how chapters interpret them might very well vary.

 Slagurth wrote:
Are you sure Lieutenants were mentioned in 3rd? I'm looking through my 3rd edition codex right now and I'm not seeing it.

Veteran is a status, not a rank. It's a status that, once earned, remains regardless of current rank or position.

I wasn't really sure where to place the specialist officers of the HQ departments in relation to main line officers. Apothecaries and Chaplains are attached to companies, placing them under the command of the Captain so I figured O-1 would be appropriate, though I could be wrong about the relationship between the Captain and the specialist officers attached to his company. The heads of specialist departments, Cassius and Tigurius of the Ultramarines in particular, seem to enjoy a very high level status in the chapter, second only to the Chapter Master, so O-3 seemed like the right fit.

If you look in the back of that third edition codex, you’ll see that veteran sergeant does appear to be a rank. They appear to be platoon leaders and company staff. If you look at the beginning of the army list you’ll see that the weakest of the “space marine heroes,” which they use instead of captain or chapter master, is the Leader, weaker than the Forve Commander and Commander, with the same profile as a veteran sergeant.

Space Marines very frequently appoint an O-5 to command a couple dozen companies. Forge World calls it a Magister Militum.

The military grade structure is a really poor model. It’s obviously much more like ICS/NIMS.

That fits very much with the scale of their forces. It’s much more like local fire/EMS, utilities, state DEQ, and law enforcement when marines operate.

The highest normal rank for a marine to have is essentially colonel. By extension, their version of five star Supreme Commander Allied Forces Europe, for example Logan Grimnar commanding hundreds of companies during the 13th Black Crusade, is a Brigadier. No, military grades don’t work well at all.

The Ultramarines have their tank sergeant. The marines are all about infantry, their biggest advantage is using their infantry. So when they do find themselves forced to fight a big tank battle, they have a sergeant kicking around to command twenty-five entire tanks’ worth of marines, because whatever captain is the force commander is going to keep focusing on the infantry so Calgar has to send along the help to sort the tanks battle out, sort of like hiring a decorator.

Then there have been a few times in the Heresy where captains have been in command of a single squad. I think squad captaincy is brilliant and I’ve copied it for a campaign at home.

Ranks in the third edition codex are not really as clearly defined as in others, but that may have been what they were going for. In fourth edition though that was reversed and veteran sergeant became an upgrade purchase for your squad sergeants rather than being an independent HQ option.

When it comes to Chronus I always liked to think of him as filling more of a Regimental Sergeant Major role. He's the most senior NCO of the chapter and enjoys a very privileged status, serving Calgar personally, but he is by definition outranked by any officer. In his capacity with the armoury he would also serve directly under the officers of that department, the tech marines.

no in third edition they were also available as squad upgrades, and it was only with the upgrade that they had access to the armory, indicating that this was a change in status rather than just the purchase of an isolated upgrade.

You seem sort of helpless.

Ok, sorry I missed that, regardless by fourth edition onward veteran Sergeants were not usable as HQ choices.

Why do you say I'm helpless? That seems kind of rude to say.

There's also a squad 2ic rank who command the second Combat Squad; in 2nd edition that rank was indeed "Veteran" (although there were also entire squads of Veterans in the 1st company; not sure if the tactical squads of the 1st company have "Veteran veterans" )

Also remember that a Space Marine Chapter is as much a religious order as it is a military unit. While all Captains might be the same rank, they'll likely defer to the ones with greatest seniority, and those senior captains will probably be the ones placed in command of multi-company deployments.

(as an aside, in 1st edition Marine characters could be Champions, Minor Heroes or Mighty Heroes, which defined their stats. This wasn't linked to the rank of an officer - I could take a Lieutenant Mighty Hero and a Champion Captain if I wanted, giving you something like the dynamic between Sgt Apone and Lt Gorman in Aliens.)

In 1st edition, you had:
Battle Brother
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Lieutenant Commander
Imperial Commander / Chapter Master
The sergeants in the 10th company were the first ones to be explicitly described as "veteran sergeants", the implication being that only the really hardened badasses got to return to the 10th company and train the recruits.

In 2nd edition there was:
Battle Brother
(squad 2nd in command)
Sergeant
Captain
Chapter Master
with the ranks below Captain also having "veteran" Marines. There was also the Company Ancients who carried the standards.

Speaking of ancients, how do they and various champions and honour guard fit in the rank structure?

AndrewGPaul wrote:There's also a squad 2ic rank who command the second Combat Squad; in 2nd edition that rank was indeed "Veteran" (although there were also entire squads of Veterans in the 1st company; not sure if the tactical squads of the 1st company have "Veteran veterans" )

Also remember that a Space Marine Chapter is as much a religious order as it is a military unit. While all Captains might be the same rank, they'll likely defer to the ones with greatest seniority, and those senior captains will probably be the ones placed in command of multi-company deployments.

(as an aside, in 1st edition Marine characters could be Champions, Minor Heroes or Mighty Heroes, which defined their stats. This wasn't linked to the rank of an officer - I could take a Lieutenant Mighty Hero and a Champion Captain if I wanted, giving you something like the dynamic between Sgt Apone and Lt Gorman in Aliens.)

In 1st edition, you had:
Battle Brother
Sergeant
Lieutenant
Captain
Lieutenant Commander
Imperial Commander / Chapter Master
The sergeants in the 10th company were the first ones to be explicitly described as "veteran sergeants", the implication being that only the really hardened badasses got to return to the 10th company and train the recruits.

In 2nd edition there was:
Battle Brother
(squad 2nd in command)
Sergeant
Captain
Chapter Master
with the ranks below Captain also having "veteran" Marines. There was also the Company Ancients who carried the standards.

The squad 2iC you’re thinking of was called a “Squad Leader” in second edition, not a veteran. Cool info on 1st edition, maybe Lieutenant Commander could be brought back just like Lieutenants were.

Crimson wrote:Speaking of ancients, how do they and various champions and honour guard fit in the rank structure?

Short answer, they don’t. Everything you just listed are positions that are held by marines who hold ranks in addition to their positions, like Sergeant Major.

 Slagurth wrote:

Crimson wrote:Speaking of ancients, how do they and various champions and honour guard fit in the rank structure?

Short answer, they don’t. Everything you just listed are positions that are held by marines who hold ranks in addition to their positions, like Sergeant Major.

Right. But the end result is the same. What ranks would marines in those positions have? You say 'Sergeant Major' so between Sergeant an Lieutenant then, sounds reasonable enough. This however is not something that I recall ever being mentioned in the fluff.

Furthermore, when talking about marines, I'd be cautious about relying too much on how modern real world militaries are organised. Marines are much more like a medieval knightly order than any modern army.

 Slagurth wrote:
Thoughts? https://imgur.com/a/ir4Bxb0

It's a feudal religious order, not a military pay scale. Roles and responsibilities are both very specific to certain roles at certain ranks, and also widely variable within a set rank.

In matters spiritual and mystical, a Captain would be expected to defer to his chaplains, tech marines or librarians regardless of rank. A prince doesn't outrank a bishop or a vicar - he's part of the laity and under their charge in that field. A particularly powerful bishop or cardinal might try to order a Prince's troops about, but he's doing that backed up with power and connections outside of the rank structure. Or because the troops respect/fear him enough that they'll ignore the normal chain of command.

A Captain is master of his men, and might allow a more experienced or favoured Captain (or other character) to take charge of some or all of his men. But ultimately that decision is one that he would need to justify to his Master, rather than something determined by the hierarchy. Unless Chapter traditions have a specific protocol for this (amongst other things).

There's also no 'commission', they're all brothers of the chapter and rise up through the ranks. There's no separate training for officers (for them to start as officers) - and probably even a basic marine is closer to some kind of CIA/KGB/MI6 superagent, familiar with the ways of guerrila warfare enough to know how to take down a planetary government with a single demi-squad, if not alone, as part of their psycho-indoctrination training.

Even a small game of 40K on the table top is an extreme case, it seems that a lot of the problems that require a marine solution in the Imperium (rebels, separatists and alien sympathisers) can be dealt with most efficiently and permanently with a single marine squad on a rapid strike vessel. If you need a full company and a strike cruiser, things have gone badly wrong already.